A full mage build cost about 17000 while an ADC cost 15000

xxxMadLionxxx·Sep 23, 2017·102 votes·5,807 views

2900 vs 2600 1100 vs 1100 3800 vs 3400 3000 vs 2400 3200 vs 2600 2600 vs 2600

Total 16600 vs 14700

It cost an ADC about 1900 gold less for a very effective typical build. Bare in mind, they also go bot in a duo lane increasing their chances for double kills adding more gold to their income.

Why does AP cost more? Every decent AP item cost over 3000 (except void staff) while ADCs have like 5 good items under 2600?

179 Comments

PennsSep 23, 201756 votes

because ap champs get more ap than ad champs get ad

but wait they dont anymore until 6 items with rabadons hehe

Linna ExcelSep 23, 201735 votes

AP ratios are trash for a lot of champs. However ad ratios of 100% or more aren't uncommon.

jwebb0113Sep 24, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=Linna Excel,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NlEk6LNH,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2017-09-23T23:58:45.659+0000)

AP ratios are trash for a lot of champs. However ad ratios of 100% or more aren't uncommon.

which adcs have 100% ad ratio on their abilities ?

Ashen RiderSep 24, 201730 votes

Caitlyn Draven Ezreal Graves Jhin Jinx Kalista Lucian Quinn Sivir Varus Xayah

A few of these might be incorrect, or I might have missed someone, but still...

TerozuSep 24, 20171 votes

Xayah has none over 100% her E just SEEMS like it because 10 feathers with like 75% is a shitton of dmg.

undesirable teamSep 24, 20176 votes

{quoted}

Xayah has none over 100% her E just SEEMS like it because 10 feathers with like 75% is a shitton of dmg.

Her ult has 100% bonus ad scaling.

ThatKingMonkeySep 24, 20172 votes

Do you use her ult for damage? It's more for getting feathers down to get more stuns with E

No More CagesSep 24, 201729 votes

It's a semantic, but every champion in the game sans Kalista has at least one 100% AD ratio via their basic attacks, which can't be dismissed since some champions realistically have 0% AP scaling and get no value at all from AP, while any champion will lat least get basic attack damage via AD that can be multiplied with crit and attack speed.

Barring that... All of these Marksmen have an AD Ratio specifically stated as 100% or higher total.

Lucian has a 100% BONUS AD ratio, and Kogmaw can pass up 100% on targets below a certain health threshold.

These four are the only ADCs who don't have an explicitly 100% AD Ratio in their kits somewhere. Corki Kindred Tristana Twitch [slayer-jinx-wink]

RisenDarkKnightSep 24, 201714 votes

Actually, corki R big one at lvl 16 has a 1.5 bonus AD ratio. twitch E fully stacked has a 1.5 AD bonus AD ratio, and Tristana E has about a 2.0 AD ratio on her fully stacked E (when maxed) as well.

ThilmerSep 24, 20173 votes

[{quoted}](name=Linna Excel,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NlEk6LNH,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2017-09-23T23:58:45.659+0000)

AP ratios are trash for a lot of champs. However ad ratios of 100% or more aren't uncommon.

Many abilities scales are like: +50% AP.

That was awesome four years ago when you could reach 1000 AP, but is ridiculous now when you barely reach 500 AP and many ítems give huge magic resistance.

notmebuthimSep 24, 201717 votes

item 3165 2900 vs item 3031 3400 item 3152 2500 vs item 3087 2600 item 3020 1100 vs item 3006 1100 item 3116 2600 vs item 3153 3400 item 3135 2650 vs item 3036 2600 item 3151 3100 vs item 3139 3600 14850 vs 16700
i dont know, seems different from my perspective.

LankPantsSep 24, 201727 votes

Protobelt is situational at best and Rylai's is pure garbage which noone builds.

Jet SettSep 24, 20175 votes

I don't know if it's just me, but I've had some success replacing Rylai's with item 3146 on champs that would normally take it because of the AP and slow nerfs.

LankPantsSep 24, 20174 votes

Yeh, most of the best users of Rylai's are DPS champs anyway so the vamp on Gunblade is amazing for them. I can't think of a reason why you'd want Rylai's over Gunblade TBH.

Jet SettSep 24, 20172 votes

To be honest Gunblade has more than Rylai's in terms of what you want on AP champions, so many rely on a form of CC that's mildly reliable with big benefits if it lands. Gunblade makes landing them a non-factor half the time.

FaustavianSep 24, 20174 votes

I don't understand the hate. That's actually a pretty decent and viable AP build on some champs, like Cassiopeia and AurelionSol or even Azir

Automated RivenSep 24, 20174 votes

you would build not build portabelt on cassio or azir

ShiznyteSep 24, 201711 votes

Drop the item 3116 and replace with item 3089 also not everyone can use the item 3152 so you should use the item 3157 to better compare

xelakerSep 24, 201716 votes

most adc's are gonna build some kind of lifesteal instead of ga unless they are super far ahead and can still wreck the enemy team after they ga back up. also I'd like to point out, most of ya'll barely have item 3089 in any mage builds, most adc's build wildly different, and a larger number of ya'll don't play either role...

item 3165 2900 item 3087 2600 item 3020 1100 item 3006 1100 item 3135 2600 item 3031 3400 item 3285 3200 item 3036 2600 item 3157 3000 item 3046 2600

current total: mage 12,800 adc: 12,300

the next bit for mages has lots of items instead of the pricey deathcap, for utility or champs that don't wanna break the bank for just ap. also keep in mind that I'm not including attack enhancing mages, like fizz, tf and so on that may buy stuff like item 3100 (still cheaper than deathcap) as for the hurty adc about town, we swap the ga for some hurty things.

item 3102 3000 item 3153 3400 item 3151 3100 item 3812 3500 item 3146 3400 item 3072 3700 This one, like rylais is a bit iffy but still doable item 3116 2600 item 3139 3600

end total: mages ~15,400--16,200 adc ~15,700--16,000

there's some flex for building items not on here, but this is just a rough look-n-see. There you go, turns out pending on the build mages and adc's sit at an almost identical build price...wowee. now be sure to flame and cry about how mages can crit and ratios are bs and ignore cc and movement spells for the mages.

Your downvotes only feed me [sg-poppy]

AhrisSep 23, 201714 votes

Adc has a 250% ad boost compared to apc's 35% ap boost.

DuskDaUmbreonSep 24, 20178 votes

150% boost, on a percent of attacks.

Teridax68Sep 24, 20176 votes

Which usually happens to be 80% of attacks, and 80% of a 150% increase is still a 120% increase. This applies mostly to autoattacks, but also frequently to marksman abilities now, several of which have crit scalings or are simply steroids.

PichuKannaSep 24, 20174 votes

False. Not all abilities crit. And some do with lower scaling: Note MF

Teridax68Sep 24, 20173 votes

But my point was never that all marksman abilities could crit, my point was that marksmen as a class tend to have special interactions with crit, as many of their abilities are autoattack steroids (which interact with crit by dint of boosting basic attacks), and several have crit scalings, which includes MF's Q and R, but also Xayah's E, Caitlyn and Quinn's innates, and Sivir's W. Effectively, AP cannot even be held as the game's prime ability-boosting stat, as not only are AD scalings more common, but several marksman abilities also scale with crit, which reinforces the notion that marksmen not only outscale mages by having more stats, but also by having stronger scalings per individual stat.

jwebb0113Sep 23, 201711 votes

yet mages level faster ... typically have more burst /cc

and get solo experience and gold , oh they roam to side lanes...

adcs sit in bot lane and try to power farm and hope they dont get 4 man dove at 5 mins in ...

xxxMadLionxxxSep 23, 201717 votes

Well thats a good point, but while mages lvl up faster, ADCs get items faster because they are cheaper and the have more double kill opportunity. Not to mention crit builds outscale everything.

jwebb0113Sep 23, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Well thats a good point, but while mages lvl up faster, ADCs get items faster because they are cheaper and the have more double kill opportunity. Not to mention crit builds outscale everything.

yes and no...

1st completed item for a mage is typically item 3165 2900 gold giving them mana, cdr, regen, ap , and gw on low level targets to help kill them.

1st completed item for an ad is typically item 3031 3400 which only gives them crit and ad... no attack speed, penetration or cdr , etc

so 3 item mage item 3165 2900 item 3157 2900 item 3020 1100 total 6900 gold so 3 item adc item 3031 3400 item 3087 2600 (or other zeal item) item 3006 1100 gold total 7100 gold

so you can see for the 3 most common items that all mages/adcs build adcs spend 200 more gold to get their 3 items while being behind in experience and level

and the adc has no item to combat the mages ap damage but the mage has 30% cdr the active of hourglass and the armor to combat the adc damage or any damage with the active of hour glass

EkyonKunSep 23, 20178 votes

No mages except those who need it are going to be building item 3157 as a second item unless they're playing against Zed or Talon . It's more likely to be item 3285 , item 3151 , or item 3102 . So, on average, the first 3 items (Boots included) will usually amount to 7000-7200 gold.

Asayake 5150glowSep 24, 201710 votes

cough cough

Wrong questions.

Why is ADC itemization so cheap? Why do crit items, the hardest scaling form of damage in the game, cost close to the least gold of all items?

Also this would be closer if BT was there instead of a second Zeal item, but the stupid thing is how ADC's don't even build BT anymore. Even if the gold costs were even, ADC's are still far stronger than mages lategame.

ModAcademy KaynSep 24, 20173 votes

I imagine that Crit/AS items are cheap because they're kinda useless without additional items, and usually require two of them depending on ADC. They don't scale the champion by themself, they still need the AD from their other items to do so.

Asayake 5150glowSep 24, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dr Mercy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NlEk6LNH,comment-id=00080000,timestamp=2017-09-24T11:32:38.691+0000)

I imagine that Crit/AS items are cheap because they're kinda useless without additional items, and usually require two of them depending on ADC. They don't scale the champion by themself, they still need the AD from their other items to do so.

That's not really true though, yeah they aren't as good as bruiser items but a Shiv alone is just as strong if not stronger than IE or BT alone.

ModAcademy KaynSep 24, 20172 votes

Than why don't they build it first?

Asayake 5150glowSep 24, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dr Mercy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NlEk6LNH,comment-id=0008000000000000,timestamp=2017-09-24T19:04:13.130+0000)

Than why don't they build it first?

Um... they... do....

ModAcademy KaynSep 24, 20172 votes

Only case I've seen is a Runaans rush, which is specific to 3 champions, now that Cait can't.

DuskDaUmbreonSep 24, 20179 votes

AP builds come online sooner. Luden's is also shit right now.

And you have no sustain in that build for a marksman. It's unrefined garbage. You can't get by without sustain.

DarkRitualSep 24, 20178 votes

item 3504

GrReaper96Sep 24, 201710 votes

You can't get by without sustain.

I thought this too, till i tried warlords. Whoever thought of making lifesteal scale with crit is pure BS

Voluug13Sep 24, 20173 votes

ADCs dont need lifesteal now-a-days, they can just have their slave buy Ardent Cancer and sustain them up.

SohleksSep 24, 20179 votes

Your adc build has no lifesteal. ADCs usually do not build item 3026 Slot ineffective. If old Talon existed then they might but yeah. All assassins have in combat counterplay shackles now in addition to being a less effective teamcomp choice.

But yeah zeal items are too inexpensive or IE should go back up in cost.

EndlessSorcererSep 24, 201711 votes

Shielding + Ardent Censor + Warlord's Bloodlust have long replaced lifesteal.

That was a pretty standard ADC build.

SohleksSep 24, 20173 votes

But in another way shielding + Ardent Censor + Lifesteal have long replaced GA. It's almost as if they are no longer in danger of dying anymore!

Never see GA built in real matches. I guess it's about as good too... for its slot inefficient cost.

With assassins having loads of counterplay it's as if it's a fine item if just not optimal for slot or dmg

Playing adc I just wouldn't gimp my dps for this item because it's just literally unneeded. Only if assassins became like original Talon again (without overdoses of support shielding)

Draven can do early GA for the lols but that's mainly because he can just do w/e he wants. Honestly more oppressive if he bought more typical items

HäxelSep 24, 20178 votes

i see you tried to compare similar items passive or statwise like ludens/stattiks, zhonyas/ga. But why you compared pd with morellos? Morellos is a cdr grievoius wounds item. Grievious wounds would be mortal reminder (instead of lord dominiks for example). But for Cdr wise you need to compare morellos to essense reaver (essense reaver statiks ie could be a sivir/xayah itembuild). Than again i would say that neither, rabbadons deathcap or guardian angel are coreitems at the moment. While you go definetly for exampel liandrys atm you don't go lethalaty items mostly on adcs. And just lets compare mr items, which dominate atm much more.

item 3165 2900 vs 3400 item 3508 item 3020 1100 vs 1100 item 3006 item 3151 3100 vs 3400 item 3031 item 3102 3000 vs 3250 item 3156 item 3285 3200 vs 2600 item 3087 item 3135 2600 vs 2600 item 3033

15950 vs 16350..... wait. that costs an adc 400 gold more? ok, we again switch liandrys with rabbadons and at the same time we switch maw with mercurial cause the ability removal is more similar to banshees. than we have

item 3165 2900 vs 3400 item 3508 item 3020 1100 vs 1100 item 3006 item 3089 3800 vs 3400 item 3031 item 3102 3000 vs 3600 item 3139
item 3285 3200 vs 2600 item 3087 item 3135 2600 vs 2600 item 3033

16650 vs 16700... oh. 50 Gold more for ad, but nearly the same. Strange. Did you optimize to let it look better for ap? But what would be the conclusion? Sure, there are some cheap ad items like the item 3086 line or item 3035 line but at the same time item 1038 line (beside ga), item 3134 line, the mr line for ads (beside wits end), the item 1053 items, item 3078 and item 3124 are all over 3k gold. And mages have cheap options as well too: item 3116 , item 3152 , item 3157 (could get cheaper preseason with "timewatch"), the item 3010 line and fckn item 3041 : a 1400 gold item, that you can build out of a start item and which can give with you with his 20 baseap and 25 stacks up to 145 ap, making it 273.48% gold effizient. You only have not to die and to make kills or assists. Ads don't have such an item anymore.

mabye zeal needs to get adjusted. Maybe ap itemization as whole (looking especialy at rylais and rabbadons). But the golddiffrence isn't that terrible as you try to describe it.

xxxMadLionxxxSep 24, 20172 votes

{quoted}

i see you tried to compare similar items passive or statwise like ludens/stattiks, zhonyas/ga. But why you compared pd with morellos? Morellos is a cdr grievoius wounds item. Grievious wounds would be mortal reminder (instead of lord dominiks for example). But for Cdr wise you need to compare morellos to essense reaver (essense reaver statiks ie could be a sivir/xayah itembuild). Than again i would say that neither, rabbadons deathcap or guardian angel are coreitems at the moment. While you go definetly for exampel liandrys atm you don't go lethalaty items mostly on adcs. And just lets compare mr items, which dominate atm much more.

2900 vs 3400 1100 vs 1100 3100 vs 3400 3000 vs 3250 3200 vs 2600 2600 vs 2600

15950 vs 16350..... wait. that costs an adc 400 gold more? ok, we again switch liandrys with rabbadons and at the same time we switch maw with mercurial cause the ability removal is more similar to banshees. than we have

2900 vs 3400 1100 vs 1100 3800 vs 3400 3000 vs 3600
3200 vs 2600 2600 vs 2600

16650 vs 16700... oh. 50 Gold more for ad, but nearly the same. Strange. Did you optimize to let it look better for ap? But what would be the conclusion? Sure, there are some cheap ad items like the line or line but at the same time line (beside ga), line, the mr line for ads (beside wits end), the items, and are all over 3k gold. And mages have cheap options as well too: , , (could get cheaper preseason with "timewatch"), the line and fckn : a 1400 gold item, that you can build out of a start item and which can give with you with his 20 baseap and 25 stacks up to 145 ap, making it 273.48% gold effizient. You only have not to die and to make kills or assists. Ads don't have such an item anymore.

mabye zeal needs to get adjusted. Maybe ap itemization as whole (looking especialy at rylais and rabbadons). But the golddiffrence isn't that terrible as you try to describe it.

I didn't compare Essence reaver because it is not in the typical build of an ADC. Only few of them use it Lucian and maybe MissFortune

EkyonKunSep 24, 20174 votes

Typically it's Xayah Sivir , but sometimes built on MissFortune Lucian Ashe . Everyone else doesn't want/need it, and the first two are the only ones who seem to really like building it. Infinity Edge is just...Infinitely better

HäxelSep 24, 20172 votes

Sivir and Xayah always build er. There is no real alternative, especialy cause these 2 need beside the cdr the mana passive as well. Graves , Quinn , MissFortune , Jhin , Ashe , Lucian , Varus , KogMaw , Ezreal , Corki , Draven can be build without er or even crit, but situational with er as well. The thing about your "typical" adc build: it doesn't exist. If you wanna tell double zeal is typical - Caitlyn , Jinx , Tristana , Vayne , Twitch are the main champs. Even Jinx (rocketstyle) or Tris you could build with er (if you get elder, the ad of er is better as another zealitem). On the other side half of the champions of the hybrid class you can and maybe do build currently with double zeal, but that could also change from patch to patch. You not listed ONE lifestealitem. Even if we have currently the ardent situation, not ine very game you have an ardent champ and next patch ardent no longer gives the onhit heal. Lw you only get if you fight vs tanks who stack a bunch of armor. Ap itemization is so much less bound cause you not paly with a support and you either build pen or not, not much to decide. Agaisnt ad or ap you build most times just one defensive item ( item 3157 , item 3102 or item 3001 ). And ap itmemization, sure, has a bit to diffrentiate between assassins, mages and supports. But the ad conflict between assassins, marksman and bruiser is far bigger. So the whole itemization is more difficult to balance. Fact is: Ofc the actual balance is not perfect. If it would be riot didn't need to update all 2 weeks the game. But your post critized at the wrong point or made a "costproblem" bigger as it, if it exists, is.

Pumping IronSep 24, 20177 votes

Wrong because thats how a full build adc looks like item 3031 item 3087 item 3094

Shepherd o SoulsSep 24, 20175 votes

The best part about the mage update is that it was really the hextech update. item 3152 and item 3146 are used by way more classes than mages. They really didn't get anything to benefit them like how assassins, tanks and marksmen got items for their classes. Hextech doesn't even feel mage exclusive, these technology items have no mage feel whatsoever and seem class neutral anyway. Mages should get items that fit their fantasy too, what type of traditional mage uses a rocket belt to fight or gun to fight?

We need more items like item 3135 item 3089 item 3003 item 3165 etc.

Also marksman really need an item update imo, turn all this burst into dps. I remember riot talking about making crit penetrate armor instead of deal bonus damage but they scrapped it and said they'll look into it another time.

DaNinadSep 24, 20172 votes

I love how you intentionally leave out the 2600 items

xxxMadLionxxxSep 24, 20174 votes

{quoted}

I love how you intentionally leave out the 2600 items

because they are not that good and highly niche while the ADC build works for all ADCs. I mean, item 3116 sucks atm. item 3152 only a few champs build that.

Am I missing any other cheap ap item?

LarkreckSep 24, 20175 votes

{quoted}

because they are not that good and highly niche while the ADC build works for all ADCs. I mean, sucks atm. only a few champs build that.

Am I missing any other cheap ap item?

Your ADC build does not work for all adcs, GA is almost never built on them because of how slot inefficient it is and how stat dependent adcs are; they gave it attack damage but it's still more often built on bruisers or assassins than anything else, you should replace it with a lifesteal item.

But apart from that, total cost of a build is not really that relevant unless you're playing a late game champion, which most adcs are and most mages are not. Additionally there is nothing for ADCs that gives them a single item powerspike remotely as strong as the powerspike most mages get from morello.

What I mean is total cost really doesn't matter as much as how much of a powerspike each item gives, that's what item costs are, and should be, balanced around.

Edit:

I didn't compare Essence reaver because it is not in the typical build of an ADC. Only few of them use it and maybe

Uhm what? You got your adc info pretty inaccurate my friend, ER is the least common buildpath for both of them, while it's 100% core on Xayah and very very common on Ashe.

Edit: and Sivir as said below, completely forgot she existed for a minute there lol