Can you decide wether J4 is a diver or a oneshot bot?

greekvandaL·Apr 13, 2018·71 votes·18,797 views

I mean when i first found out about J4 he was this big muthafucka that engaged and locked down people. And he had enough dmg on his own to do like 70% of squishy health.

Right now i just see J4's ( when we actually see em lawl ) build a warrior and a lethality item and instantly oneshot everything that isnt't a full armor tank.

His tank build aint even toxic unlike other champs cause his actual cc is hard to land on a competent player. His full ad builds are toxic and they oneshot harder than a Rengar consistently. Yet everytime i see a J4 change is a nerf to his utility or defences. Nobody likes oneshot bot J4 yet you keep pushing him to that full ad build. You could litterally tone down his bases and scaling and improve his shield and make him a glorious iniciator again that locks people down away from his team or for his team to wombo.

117 Comments

HügöApr 13, 201835 votes

Who does he want to lockdown nowadays where everyone can just jump over his tiny dirt wall?

HalcyonDwellerApr 13, 20186 votes

Yeah, I mean I'd hate to see this one change in particular but if Riot wants to revive his original design and playstyle they need to change his ult so that it grounds all nearby enemies.

CasterGilgameshApr 13, 20189 votes

at least make it ground the one person who he ulted since its a targeted ult

HalcyonDwellerApr 13, 20181 votes

Yeah, that would work. It's kind of like Camille's ult anyway, supposed to trap the opponent(s) in with you.

CasterGilgameshApr 13, 20183 votes

i used to hate fighting J4 back in season 2 but after many seasons of damage creep and mobility creep later he became obsolete [slayer-jinx-unamused]

HalcyonDwellerApr 13, 20182 votes

Yeah, it's really lame that he became obsolete, that said his ult was a nightmare to deal with. As much as I appreciate the champion deserving to be viable again, I don't want to see it be from something so frustrating again.

Ariel the CruelApr 15, 20182 votes

supposed to trap the opponent(s) in with you.

Vayne Poppy Gnar Bard Ornn I'm not trapped in here with you. You're trapped in here with me.

HalcyonDwellerApr 16, 20181 votes

lol

DisulfiramApr 13, 20184 votes

Better yet: ground all enemies inside the circle.

(With how many dashes have been added to the game, imho it would be nice to have more grounding effects to counter them - especially on immobile champions with low range)

CasterGilgameshApr 13, 20182 votes

baby steps

AlienPrimateApr 13, 201819 votes

This doesn't need the addition of grounding. If you want that, just duo queue with a Cassiopeia

Champions who can't leave without flash

Anivia Annie Ashe Bard Blitzcrank Cassiopeia Chogath Darius DrMundo Draven Gangplank Garen Heimerdinger Illaoi Janna Jayce Jhin Jinx Kalista Karma Karthus Kayle Kennen KogMaw Lulu Lux Malzahar MissFortune Mordekaiser Morgana Nami Nasus Nautilus Nunu Olaf Orianna Quinn Rammus Rumble Singed Sion Sivir Skarner Sona Soraka Swain Syndra Taric Teemo Trundle Twitch Udyr Urgot Varus Vayne Veigar Velkoz Viktor Vladimir Volibear Xayah Xerath Yorick Zilean Zoe Zyra Rumble

Champions who can't realistically leave because their escape is stopped by taking damage/getting cc'd

Fiddlesticks TahmKench TwistedFate Ryze

Champions who require a target to escape

Akali Alistar Amumu Braum Elise Galio Irelia Jax Ivern Kaisa LeeSin Leona Maokai MasterYi Nocturne Pantheon Poppy Rengar Thresh Yasuo MonkeyKing XinZhao Kled

Champions who need their ult to escape and aren't already listed

Ahri Evelynn Hecarim Kassadin Malphite Shyvana Warwick

Champions who would never realistically leave with their mobility

AurelionSol not enough space to build up his E she can leave with ult, but Q would be blocked

Champions who can actually reliably leave without the use of flash

Azir Caitlyn Camille Corki Ekko Ezreal Fiora Fizz Gnar Gragas Kassadin Katarina Kayn Khazix Kindred Leblanc Lissandra Lucian Nidalee Rakan Renekton Riven Sejuani Shaco Shen Talon Tristana Tryndamere Zed RekSai Ziggs Ornn

BestPudgeNAApr 13, 20185 votes

{quoted}

This doesn't need the addition of grounding. If you want that, just duo queue with a Cassiopeia

Any Champ can build item 3152 At the very least that gets rid of a handful of champs like Annie Vladimir Ornn Actually breaks J4 pit so not only does he not need flash to get out. He can get his entire team out. Kalista Can wall jump it, she can also pull her teamates out Nautilus Can pull out if he times it correctly

GalihanApr 14, 20189 votes

IIRC, Protobelt cannot dash over walls.

Automated RivenApr 14, 20181 votes

It does over player created walls I am almost 100% sure. It did on release I know for a fact.

EkyonKunApr 14, 20183 votes

I don't remember the exact patch, but that was a bug. The fixed it later. They even mentioned J4 in the bug fix list. Went something like this.

"Fixed Hextech Protobelt--01 being able to dash through champion created terrain. (Technically, this is a Jarvan IV buff.)"

Aatrox Mid 1v5Apr 14, 20188 votes

{quoted}

Can pull out if he times it correctly

( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

AlienPrimateApr 14, 20188 votes

[slayer-jinx-unamused] [zombie-brand-facepalm] [slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

AmazoXApr 13, 20184 votes

{quoted}

This doesn't need the addition of grounding. If you want that, just duo queue with a Cassiopeia

Champions who can't leave without flash

Champions who can't realistically leave because their escape is stopped by taking damage/getting cc'd

Champions who require an outside target to escape

Champions who need their ult to escape and aren't already listed

Champions who would never realistically leave with their mobility

not enough space to build up his E she can leave with ult, but Q would be blocked

Champions who can actually reliably leave without the use of flash

You don't need to build up speed to use Asol's E

GalihanApr 14, 20184 votes

Ziggs can fling himself out with his W, Ornn can headbutt it. Xayah can ult out.

AlienPrimateApr 14, 20187 votes

Xayah cannot ult out. She just becomes untargetable. She can't go over anything.

5000000000000000Apr 14, 20182 votes

Does Ornn headbutt destroy Jarvan terrain?

AMYS GRAVEApr 14, 20184 votes

there's a lot wrong with your lists....

Puppet33rApr 14, 20181 votes

Correct me if I'm wrong but Kalista can jump over it and Vayne can tumble through it since the wall is still coded as minions.

Also I never checked/saw but can't Bard drop his tunnel on it? And since the wall is minions Urgot and Kled might be able to E through it.

AlienPrimateApr 14, 20182 votes

You are wrong, so I am correcting you. It is coded as terrain. Poppy and Vayne can both E people into it for a stun and Ornn will get a knockup if he charges into it. This means that the 4 listed as being coded as minions is incorrect. As for Bard, I actually had to look it up. The wiki states that Bard's E lasts longer than player created terrain so to avoid an odd interaction of a portal being in mid air, they coded his E to not interact with created terrain.

hhaavviikkApr 13, 201812 votes

same deal with diana, riot keeps changing her passive and buffing it and giving her more AS to try and make her into a dps mage yet whenever you see a diana it's W > Q > R > AA > dead

CasterGilgameshApr 13, 20184 votes

there is not enough ap attack speed items to even make diana into what riot wants her to be (which is an ap fighter). she just suffers from what all mages suffer and thats a lack of ap options we have almost no ap fighter options. so she will just build burst like every other ap champion. at one point ap was strictly burst but that is an out dated design which needs to be updated and so incredibly disappointed that we had all these mage up date passes but riot never addresses the lack of build options at an adequate degree.

JustaNewbApr 13, 20188 votes

They have effectively gutted this Bruisers ability to tank... so he does what all Bruisers do when they do that to them. He abuses the hell out of his damage potential, which he only has because most of his itemization was meant to be tanky.

ValyrianBladeApr 13, 20187 votes

Bases should stay high, crush the scaling though (especially on his ultimate).

Then open room to buff his shield or give back armor on his E, or otherwise increase his defenses.

I've always enjoyed bruiser/tank J4 over assassin J4. However pro play typically sees him played full tank, abusing his early base damage to get early ganks, then scaling into a full tank threat. That's probably why his nerfs push him towards full AD.

I couldn't imagine playing J4 without threatening damage on my EQ though. He needs threatening engage damage or else he's useless top Lane, and not a strong jungler.

iPooUnicornsApr 13, 20185 votes

Increasing his scaling would actually make damage builds stronger on him. Also building full AD puts him at a severe disadvantage come midgame, as he will die almost instantly.

greekvandaLApr 13, 201820 votes

{quoted}

Increasing his scaling would actually make damage builds stronger on him. Also building full AD puts him at a severe disadvantage come midgame, as he will die almost instantly.

Never did i say incease scaling i said decrease and up his SHIELD. Also he isnt because he can litterally oneshot with R AAQ ANYTHING that doesnt go full armor.

iPooUnicornsApr 13, 20181 votes

Ah I read "You could litterally tone down his bases and scaling and improve his shield " part wrong.

The problem with nerfing his damage and buffing his shield is it makes bruiser builds like item 3071 item 3748 almost as bad as full damage builds.

Even worse would be the "Nidhogg" Jarvan build more obnoxious. The build essentially pairs Grasp of the Undying with W max while building almost full tank, which makes it virtually impossible to trade against him in lane, or even fight him until late game.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1-tYVKqpYA

DuskDaUmbreonApr 13, 20186 votes

I'd personally rather to not be able to kill someone than to instantly die to him.

I suppose that's why I bitch more about Brand than about Janna/Lulu.

iPooUnicornsApr 13, 20183 votes

I prefer the opposite, I'd much rather be able to outplay the first rotation and be able to kill them rather than have them be able to beat their head against ~~the wall~~ you until you die.

DuskDaUmbreonApr 13, 20189 votes

The problem is you can't always outplay the first rotation. There's not much you can do to outplay J4 as a squishy.

Plus, you die instantly and now you have nothing to do. If you can't kill them for most of the game, but they're not some massive damage threat you need to take out, you can actually just sit and...farm. Or play the vision game. Or manipulate the wave. When dead, the only thing you can do is drop Redemption.

Sp33d Zer0Apr 13, 20185 votes

{quoted}

The problem is you can't always outplay the first rotation.

Laughs in MonkeyKing item 3147 item 3142 item 3071

MorganFreemanBotApr 13, 20187 votes

{quoted}

Ah I read "You could litterally tone down his bases and scaling and improve his shield " part wrong.

The problem with nerfing his damage and buffing his shield is it makes bruiser builds like almost as bad as full damage builds.

Even worse would be the "Nidhogg" Jarvan build more obnoxious. The build essentially pairs Grasp of the Undying with W max while building almost full tank, which makes it virtually impossible to trade against him in lane, or even fight him until late game.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1-tYVKqpYA

Maybe I'm insane, but I don't see the problem with this.

J4 is noticeably ahead, building pure tank, and fighting multiple strings of weakened enemies 1 by 1. Pretty much any beefy / tanky champ could have done the same stuff, though j4 is EXTREMELY sticky, which means most of them wouldn't have been able to pursue Nami past the bubble.

Either way, no one dies quickly to him, and there's plenty of idiocy / misplays which lead him to get all those kills.

My Waifu VanillaApr 13, 20184 votes

Doesn't matter if you die when you go 2 for 1 by diving their back line and killing the ADC and support next to each other since all your damage is AoE.

iPooUnicornsApr 13, 20186 votes

You Janna can Lulu easily Thresh counter Alistar Jarvan TahmKench diving Poppy your item 3190 backline.

DuskDaUmbreonApr 13, 20183 votes

Of those, only Poppy and Janna are actually doing anything in time.

Poppy with her W, Janna with her R. The others won't be able to react fast enough to protect the squishies.

iPooUnicornsApr 13, 20184 votes

Janna can cancel J4's EQ with her Q. Lulu can ult the ADC and polymorph J4 after EQ. Thresh's flay cancels J4 EQ. Ali can headbutt J4 after EQ. Tahm can just eat the ADC. Locket will mitigate a decent portion of J4 burst.

DuskDaUmbreonApr 13, 20185 votes

And most of those take too much time, or require you to be on top of the ADC/J4 already for it.

These just aren't accessible for the average player.

iPooUnicornsApr 13, 20184 votes

All of these supports should be on top of the ADC to begin with, the only way J4 has around this is by having superior vision control, which can easily go both ways.

Supports that are Silver or higher should be expected to be able to react to their ADC being dived, if they aren't able to, they belong in Bronze, and League should not be balanced around Bronze level gameplay.

If you don't have a support like these, you probably have someone like Lux Velkoz Zyra as your support, which is entirely fair, since they traded ADC protection for damage.

Somebody Love MeApr 13, 20183 votes

Janna Q isnt fast enough top stop J4 combo, unless she already sees it coming from a mile away. She has to R, but if she Rs the EQ, he can just press R himself, and then it comes down to who stat checks the hardest, but J4 usually wins because his R kinda does a metric fuck ton of damage when he's full AD.

Lil PeetoApr 16, 20181 votes

{quoted}

And most of those take too much time, or require you to be on top of the ADC/J4 already for it.

These just aren't accessible for the average player.

The average player sniffs paint and eats crayons. You'd literally have to give them 30 seconds to react to every threat.

ViciousSummonerApr 13, 20184 votes

What if:

Q Base DMG 80 + 40 per rank > 80 + 60 per rank Scaling 120% bonus AD > 60% bonus AD Can apply Martial Cadence

W Base Shield 60 + 15 per rank > 50% total Armor + 50% total MR Gain 2% + .25% bonus HP as shield > 3% at all ranks

R Scaling 150% bonus AD > 80% bonus AD + 10% bonus HP

I just like to throw around numbers I'm not too good at them, but I feel as though this would help the J4 situation. This should make it so that full damage is only strong early on and bruiser/tank scales really nicely into mid/late. I didn't take armor/lethality into consideration because I'm too lazy for that.

The changes to Q make it so that even with less AD you'll still do near the same damage as someone who's building full AD.

The W changes reward you the tankier you are. Everything should be relatively the same with a bruiser based build. It only starts to be much stronger than the flat shield value when you get extremely tanky.

The R changes curve damage. You will do more damage as a bruiser/tank than you would with pure damage.

MagicalDemonsApr 14, 20183 votes

J4 is actually pretty balanced right now in my opinion, strong early and pretty weak late if you ask me

KnalxzApr 14, 20182 votes

Reminds me of a video i saw where a half dead J4 jump scares a guy by ulting over a wall instant killing him screaming "DE! MA! CI! AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!"

chipndip1Apr 14, 20182 votes

You guys DO realize his lethality build is solo queue cheese at best, right? Lethality builds are supposed to spike early, then drop off. What you're experiencing is J4 opting into early game spikes, but if he doesn't sell all that and re-itemize late game, he'll be entirely useless.

Ariel the CruelApr 15, 20181 votes

With all the wall-jumping mobility in the game, he doesn't have much else going for him. His ult hasn't aged well and his knock-up is hard to land. You're almost better off building tank Camille than tank Jarvin, just because targets can get out of her box.

chipndip1Apr 15, 20181 votes

Jarvan's pull can knock multiple people up on a basic ability. That's extremely powerful in and of itself.

Jarvan's ult actually damages people. Camille's doesn't.

Jarvan's kit ultimately makes him a diver that's slightly reminiscent of a vanguard champion, while Camille's much better with a standard diver build, with standard diver items. Jarvan's kit is "pretty solid" atm, with emphasis being on his flag-n-drag rather than his ult. It holds up enough, anyway.