I stll dont get why Katarina is so toxic to play against.

greekvandaL·Feb 25, 2018·25 votes·8,947 views

Everyone bitches about Zed and his duskblade oneshots. But at least when Zed kills me and he isnt far ahead to E AA me into a oneshot i feel either outplayed or that i had a chance to win.

When a katarina feeds her lane and is still allowed to E W Q E and oneshot me because i cant even escape with her hextech slow the proceeds to do half my teams hp bar before she dies. Her kit gives her too much of the ability to fuck up and remain relevant.

I'm not sayign she is broken or hotfix / nerf worthy i'm DO saying that her rework is a miserable failure in terms of how toxic it is because it doesnt take more than 2 games to get used to her dagger that give her even more mobility that she previously had and bigger base dmg's.

57 Comments

BALDG1VEN BOOMERFeb 25, 201813 votes

[{quoted}](name=silver 5 btw,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4POZXFcu,comment-id=,timestamp=2018-02-25T14:35:34.300+0000) E W Q E and oneshot me

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/facebook/000/993/875/084.png

Pretty sure that shouldn’t be in the same sentence. But god forbid a full combo kill someone.

greekvandaLFeb 25, 20187 votes

[{quoted}](name=Thę Weeknd XO,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4POZXFcu,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-02-25T15:21:33.221+0000)

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/facebook/000/993/875/084.png

Pretty sure that shouldn’t be in the same sentence. But god forbid a full combo to kill someone.

Mate. that shit is close to instant with how her E works lol! And katarina is supposed to be played around her ult not around her Q oneshotting peole when she picks it up

FairyfleurFeb 25, 20184 votes

Then don’t stand near her daggers

RainXBladeFeb 26, 20182 votes

Don't stand near her daggers

Oh! Oh!

So what you're saying is to stay away from her while her daggers zone you off from CS? What a great tip!

FairyfleurFeb 26, 20182 votes

A single dagger near your backline minions doesn’t prevent you from farming.

Tails9016Feb 26, 20181 votes

https://i.imgur.com/D8disr7.jpg[/img]

Unless you're ranged

FairyfleurFeb 26, 20182 votes

I mean most mids are ranged so for the majority of laners you don’t typically get zoned by a Katarina, and even if you do a lot of melees can outduel her but I may be wrong on that one as I don’t play midlane assassins often.

Spank the FoxFeb 26, 20183 votes

A dagger doesn’t zone you from CS though.

Besides, they just gutted the base damages on those things.

DauntFeb 25, 20182 votes

Lol, well there's your problem. The only source of actual burst damage that she has are her daggers which are really telegraphed and easily dodged.

VoraciousXFeb 26, 20183 votes

[{quoted}](name=silver 5 btw,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4POZXFcu,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2018-02-25T15:26:21.370+0000)

Mate. that shit is close to instant with how her E works lol! And katarina is supposed to be played around her ult not around her Q oneshotting peole when she picks it up

Katarina's ult has never been the thing to "play around". It does a lot of damage if you stick in the middle of it but her passive is what deals most of her damage. Her ult is just extra damage to finish someone off. Also, a Katarina didn't fuck up if she E>W>Q>E'd you. She E'd to you, landed on her W, Q'd you, waited to grab her W dagger, and then E'd to the other side of you where her other dagger was, picking up her other dagger. In this instance, Katarina did 5 forms of damage on you. She E'd you once, that did damage, picked up a dagger for a sinister steel, that did damage to you so that's 2, used Q, that's 3, E'd to you again, that's 4, and then landed on her Q dagger for another sinister steel. That's 5 abilities. What should have happened is if you didn't have a dash, you should have flashes away from her initial W, or walk BEHIND her as she was firing her Q on you, because then she would have missed one of her sinister steels. She would have then had to ult you if she had it, which she most likely did, where you could either flash, or get out of it if you had enough HP. If she actually fed her lane, she wouldn't have enough damage to one shot you while missing her abilities.

NaymlissFeb 26, 20182 votes

ewqe one shots you? HOW'S QWEQ one shotting you from range once Ryze gets a couple of items(this is coming from a ryze player).

2Charmnot2CharmFeb 25, 20184 votes

You're right, OP forgot about the instant auto attack that kat does when she E's onto a target, now that is a full combo :^)

Seriously though her base damage is stupid, along with the dumb slow gunblade has on it.

If i were to be ahead vs a kat i would still have to give up damage to build defense so she doesn't kill me in 1 combo meanwhile if the roles were reversed Kat can happily build hexdrinker or whatever defense she wants first because her base damage is enough early game.

wildfox99Feb 25, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Thę Weeknd XO,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4POZXFcu,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-02-25T15:21:33.221+0000)

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/facebook/000/993/875/084.png

Pretty sure that shouldn’t be in the same sentence. But god forbid a full combo kill someone.

the problem is when she can trade 3/4 of your hp only with non skillshoots while having high mobility and being hard to kill,the problem is how she can outrade without her passive,Q E AA W E AA E AA and even if you dodged her daggers you see your hp bar gone

E W Q E is not her full rotation,with 1 item she shouldn't be able to kill you without her ult and/or her passive daggers (which are already hard to dodge)

FacerollKatarinaFeb 25, 20188 votes

You were pretty accurate on describing Katarina's rework. The rework was something that only created more issues with Katarina than actually fixing the ones she had. The problem with old Katarina was that she had pretty much no skill expression. You couldn't tell a good Katarina from a Katarina that just went in and smashed literally every button on her keyboard and got kills. Her laning phase was extremely poor since she lacked sustain, and she had little to no counterplay when she got fed, deleting your whole team in a second.

When Reworking Katarina, Riot tried to fix all these issues, but ended up failing miserably. Before Katarina had no skill expression, now it's to the point where a Katarina main almost feels unfair to play against because she has too much skill expression. Then riot took Katarina's terrible laning phase and gave her one of the strongest level 2-3 all in's in the game. They buffed her base stats, gave her more damage, and gave her an auto reset to top it all off. To fix her counterplay issue, Riot delayed her damage and then made it so you could see exactly where her daggers were, only issue being that she exploits mistakes too hard so if you step too close to the dagger then you're a goner.

There's a few fixes to these issues with Kat -

Nerfing Gunblade - Gunblade itself is an extremely problematic item, providing crazy sustain and acting as basically a fifth ability. The item itself is extremely awful to play against and imo needs to be reworked or removed entirely. Only problem is, if you nerf the item, you're nerfing all of the champions that use it, but most of the champions that use it need to be reworked anyways because of problems they have.

Revert Shunpo - Her auto reset is what makes her laning phase so frustrating, because she is able to do crazy amounts of damage with an Auto E Auto, on top of the fact that shunpo resets, it makes her a nightmare to trade with early on. I think it would be best to remove the auto reset entirely and in return, just revert Katarina's old shunpo. Bring back the old animation and remove the cast time that makes her feel clunky to play, but most importantly, remove her damn auto reset. (When I say revert shunpo I don't mean bring back the wardhop because that'd give WAY too much mobility).

Revert the Entire Rework and Rework her again - While reverting the rework is a long shot, theres no doubt that Katarina has to be reworked again. She exists in a state where she will never be balanced, if she doesn't blow up everyone, shes useless. She's way too frustrating for the enemy team to play against. Riot has to start from scratch and give her a full rework, and not some shitty class update rework, and ACTUALLY fix the problems with her.

FairyfleurFeb 25, 20183 votes

I agree that she has issues but the rework doesn’t feel like a complete failure imo. Changing/nerfing gunblade might be a nice step. The active is incredibly frustrating when given to champions who aren’t supposed to have CC, like Akali and Katarina .

Tomoe GozenFeb 25, 20183 votes

Revert the Entire Rework and Rework her again - While reverting the rework is a long shot, theres no doubt that Katarina has to be reworked again.

Eh...no.

Squidward DabFeb 25, 20181 votes

If you're going to remove her auto reset then lower her shunpo cd on daggers early games. Having 2-3 seconds between shunpo after picking up daggers feels clunky as shit to play as

Infinite SaughtFeb 26, 20182 votes

Honestly though, the only reason why they won't gut Gunblade is because it fulfills the same "AP Assassin" niche item like Duskblade does. And Duskblade is just as atrocious in the same manner.

Unrelatably, I've been calling for a Katarina rework for like over a year now but most Katarina mains won't budge cause it's the best thing since sliced bread. Also, Riot Beluga Whale said that they liked Katarina the way she is, so... I don't expect anything to change until she gets inevitably Leblanc'd.

Edit: This is how they view her.

SubdueFeb 25, 20185 votes

There is a reason Kat doesn't see much high level play. Her damage all comes from an ultimate that can't be targeted, is relatively short ranged, and must be channeled. She's completely countered by anyone with an interrupt for her ultimate. And even if you don't, a tanky player with an adaptive helm can nullify the bulk of her damage by just standing next to her. Kat only thrives in games where people build glass cannon always and tanks don't know how to save their interrupts for high priority targets.

greekvandaLFeb 25, 201813 votes

{quoted}

There is a reason Kat doesn't see much high level play. Her damage all comes from an ultimate that can't be targeted, is relatively short ranged, and must be channeled. She's completely countered by anyone with an interrupt for her ultimate. And even if you don't, a tanky player with an adaptive helm can nullify the bulk of her damage by just standing next to her. Kat only thrives in games where people build glass cannon always and tanks don't know how to save their interrupts for high priority targets.

mate you do understand that my problem with her isnt her ulti but the fact that her daggers can pretty much oneshot you and they are easy to land with hextech?

Tomoe GozenFeb 25, 20183 votes

I may not be a good Katarina player but my experience with playing her is completely different. I don't feel like i can do much in fights due to how poking with Daggers feels like crap because you're forced to pick them up for additional damage. Now (with another pass at AP items), Kat lost almost all CDR unless you go with Hextech GLP or Belt. I still haven't figured out her item path due to Luden's having 500 mana added to it (so it's not Kat's item anymore) but Spellbinder seems like a no brainer to me at this point.

All in all, Morellonomicon and Liandry's also look as appealing purchases for her, especially the new Rabadon's. But everything's more expensive now so you overall end up with less items to work with. I avoid Gunblade since i don't ever see a lot of returns with it, my cases.

RanmaruFeb 25, 201810 votes

{quoted}

There is a reason Kat doesn't see much high level play. Her damage all comes from an ultimate that can't be targeted, is relatively short ranged, and must be channeled. She's completely countered by anyone with an interrupt for her ultimate. And even if you don't, a tanky player with an adaptive helm can nullify the bulk of her damage by just standing next to her. Kat only thrives in games where people build glass cannon always and tanks don't know how to save their interrupts for high priority targets.

You do know kat in challenger has 59% winrate http://www.metasrc.com/all/5v5/current/champion/katarina/mid?ranks=platinum,challenger Yeah shes useless in high elo

DoodlzzzFeb 25, 20183 votes

Katarina has plenty of counterplay.

First of all, unless you're playing middlesticks with negative magic resistance, a feeding Kat doesn't "oneshot" you with an E W Q E... even if she does, you can counter this by actually sticking with a teammate for once lol.

When Katarina engages, she is not "safe", if anything, she is literally exposing herself as easily CC'ed as she has very little options for escape. Her kit is actually VERY punishing for fuck ups, unlike Zed that can return to one of his shadows after he goes all in in a teamfight.

Finally, if you literally build any magic resist item ever, you will realize that her damage doesn't amount to much anymore, even if she is fed.

Also, I looked you up on OP.GG and you're a top bruiser main, which means that you should EASILY be able to soak Kat's damage and wreck her if she goes in.

FaustavianFeb 25, 20186 votes

Middlesticks would straight up fuck Katarina over so hard, even WITH negative MR.

Tails9016Feb 26, 20181 votes

Middlesticks would straight up fuck everyone over so hard, even WITH negative MR.

FTFY

~~Is a meme don't hurt me~~

Moonfall SaberFeb 25, 20183 votes

But she is broken. You cant hit her with skillshots because she just blinks around in and out of aa range. You cant stand on top of her or she will ult and you cant run from he as well because she will chance you down. The real question is where the hell can you position yourself safely so she cant kill you and the answer is nowhere. Unless you are standing 1000 units away you are not safe. Even at 600-800 range you are not even safe because she can blink to you then catch you with a dagger. CC is the only true counter to Katarina and MasterYi as well and im not sure if its a healthy mechanic. I mean think about how unfair it is to get into a 1v1 against a when you have no cc. You just die. Not to mention he can jungle Alpha strike to dodge your cc. is the same way, she can shunpo to dodge cc leaving you with nothing to fight against her.

JavelinJoeFeb 25, 20182 votes

You cant hit her with skillshots because she just blinks around in and out of aa range. You cant stand on top of her or she will ult and you cant run from he as well because she will chance you down.

Hmm, an assassin developed around having high damage and a lot of mobility. Seems actually par for the course. If this was about pre-rework LB, then you have a point because there actually was no counterplay with her engage range and burst damage. She even had hard CC for when she could not 1 shot you. But Kat has almost none of that. No CC at all, kit full of fair weaknesses if exploited, and punishable if used incorrectly or interrupted.

Her Q is her only ranged attack (excluding ult since you normally do not trade/poke casually with it). Its poke is alright, but well within distance for most mages to trade with (625 range on cast, not necessarily bounce). Every other attack needs to be within point blank range.

You cant hit her with skillshots because she just blinks around in and out of aa range

Skillshots are almost always farther ranged than AA range. Not sure what you meant there (I am assuming that you meant that she is hard to hit with skill shots because of her mobility). But guess what, you are always close to her when she engages you with her combo. Point blank to be exact (save for her Q). If you see her coming, prepare your hard CC (which most mages have to some extent) to counter her engage.

Her other massive weakness is not getting her E's CD reduced by missing a dagger. She at most has 2 out at a time (without her passive 15s CD reduction form assists/kills). Which means she is going to go to one of them almost guaranteed. So look to counter her engage or retreat dagger (if she has one, if not then it is even easier to know where she is going to be).

Her E has a somewhat long CD (14s-8s depending on rank) for an assassin who is suppose to be in and out focused. Her reason for the long CD is because her passive can reduce it to almost 0s (78%-96% CDR) if she collects a dagger. Prevent her form doing so and she cant jump around a lot as easily.

She is a champion built around quick engages, and hopefully quick kills/retreats. So interrupting or delaying her flow is a good strategy. She is really squishy. She can kill you just about as fast as she can be killed.

Is she strong? Yes, especially against squishy targets with no CC. Can she be countered? Also yes. I she broken? Not yet. She is leaning towards that side sure, but she is not broken yet. She has weaknesses that can be exploited.

Moonfall SaberFeb 25, 20182 votes

her e cd resets picking up a dagger though.

DauntFeb 25, 20183 votes

Still has a 3 second CD before level 6 which is a lot of time if you jump in for a trade and doesn't actually become instant until level 11.

JavelinJoeFeb 25, 20181 votes

I have said this a few times. But it is not instantly reduced until around level 11 or so. Plus that is one of her 2 daggers, so she still is telegraphed.

DauntFeb 25, 20183 votes

Sure she has mobility but she's also the only assassin that doesn't have a mechanic such as stealth or untargetability which makes her even more vulnerable to CC and actually is really easy to play around. She's also a champion that is successful at punishing mistakes that players make. If you died to a Katarina you know you screwed up.

When a katarina feeds her lane and is still allowed to E W Q E and oneshot me because i cant even escape with her hextech slow the proceeds to do half my teams hp bar before she dies. Her kit gives her too much of the ability to fuck up and remain relevant.

If she actually feeds her lane this doesn't happen. She's a champion that you can't afford to fall behind on. And how exactly can she remain relevant if she fucks up? You might just not understand how to punish her or you're not experienced with the matchup.

I'm not sayign she is broken or hotfix / nerf worthy i'm DO saying that her rework is a miserable failure in terms of how toxic it is because it doesnt take more than 2 games to get used to her dagger that give her even more mobility that she previously had and bigger base dmg's.

Her rework was actually pretty solid. Fixed her to a certain extent where she's actually a champion that isn't a brainless stat check where she either goes in to get a penta or instantly dies. She got well implemented delays which allow you to dodge her biggest damage threat. She got more damage but it's AVOIDABLE now. You can literally AVOID the dagger cause you always know where they land. Also something tells me you never actually played Katarina.

I notice that a lot of your frustration also comes from Gunblade. I have to agree on that one, i've been saying it for a while now. It's cancer and completely unnecessary. It's harder to fuck up a combo since you'll always have the reliable chunk of damage plus soft CC to help you out when assassinating a target.

All in all though you just seem like you got stomped by a Kat cause you're inexperienced in the matchup. There's a reason why she's never seen in pro play, way too easy to play around and coordinate around and isn't reliable enough. Given that she is an extremely good soloQ champion since people don't always coordinate properly.

abca98Feb 25, 20182 votes

I mean, yeah, the rework succeded in giving her more counterplay because before she could flash - Q on you- E on you- W- R boom you just died. To achieve that, she gained extra blink resets, which IMO makes her even more annoying. Anyway, yes, now she is easier to stop even when fed, basically because you can dodge her abilities and you couldn't before.

yoshi2790Feb 25, 20182 votes

Honestly. katarina is way more fair than zed, she doesnt go ~~invulnerable~~ untargetable when you press r. You know where she'll jump (her daggers)or she wont get a reset. She also has no CC. unlike zed he has a slow. Also you talk about items but Zed his items are way more unfair... item 3155

Her kit gives her too much of the ability to fuck up and remain relevant.

where? she's full damage?

If you are going to be angry about Katarina then atleast compare it to a champion that isn't a problem him/herself...

Zed geniusFeb 25, 20181 votes

You always know where zed will end up because of his shadows, while katarina can jump in any direction of her dagger, her teammates or minions. Zed doesn't get invulnerable, he gets untargettable, dots like ignite still dmg him at that time. Also hexdrinker is a perfectly fine rush for a katarina since she has ad ratios on P,E,R. Your points are not valid.

yoshi2790Feb 25, 20182 votes

It still is a better rush for zed, it's pretty core on zed, it's not core on Katarina. But still, an untargetable ability is really powerful.

Also, Zed has amazing poke, way better than Katarina's, which is something I forgot to add earlier (whoopsie!)

Your points are not valid.

You didn't react to all of them... :S

Zed geniusFeb 26, 20181 votes

zed has a slow that kat gets with gunblade, that's the only thing zed has going for him on this comparison, katarina is better in early game,in mid game and in lategame team fights. The pick potential and os potential they have is basically the same. (And before calling me biased, maining katarina got me to diamond for the first time last season)

yoshi2790Feb 26, 20181 votes

that's the only thing zed has going for him on this comparison,

Comparing an item that costs 2K+ with a high active cd with an ability available from level 1. (but mostly level 3) and saying they are equal is not correct...

katarina is better in early game,in mid game and in lategame team fights.

Also. Zed has WAAY better poke. He beats katarina in laning unless she's faker. Katarina's late game is better, but her early and mid are not better.

Zed geniusFeb 27, 20181 votes

Zed's poke isn't guaranteed to land though...also a katarina that has a basic understanding of her champ should never get solo killed in lane by a zed

ElohavenFeb 25, 20182 votes

Akali's worse - lol. Hextech Gunblade is a pretty toxic item in itself.

Humble AatroxFeb 26, 20182 votes

just play boom ggez

TyroneWatermelonFeb 26, 20182 votes

Not a single assassin is fun to play against.

Leaf on BushFeb 26, 20182 votes

Calling something toxic, cancer, aids or whatever doesn't really offer a basis for a neutral and reasonable discussion.

greekvandaLFeb 26, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Leaf on Bush,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4POZXFcu,comment-id=0012,timestamp=2018-02-26T12:46:20.139+0000)

Calling something toxic, cancer, aids or whatever doesn't really offer a basis for a neutral and reasonable discussion.

that is the better describing word for champions like her.

Leaf on BushFeb 26, 20182 votes

Nothing against hate circlejerks but you should at least be aware of the fact that you are starting one. So don't confuse it with a real discussion.

You run into issues as soon as you throw together "toxic" with stuff like balance/ nerfs or buffs. Balance doesn't care for your dislike of certain champions. Balance is neutral. Calling something "toxic" is not.

I'm not sayign she is broken or hotfix / nerf worthy

Yes exactly.

miserable failure in terms of how toxic it is

Like I said, you hate the champion, but this is not reasonable.

KaiokoFeb 26, 20182 votes

I agree with you that Katarina is strong, but she's definitely not going to be a problem if you shut her down in lane. She has to get fed in lane and off early roams. She shines early/mid game she's no longer the huge scaling late game monster she used to be after they reworked her.

Recon1212Feb 26, 20181 votes

Yeah, I played a game against her and beat her pretty easily but once she got hextech it was over for me...

Leaf on BushFeb 27, 20183 votes

Learn to respect her powerspikes.