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Before you move on to assassin rework, there are still some mage issues that could use a cleanup

Zero Skill Tank··18 votes·1,726 views

item 3151: why mages ability to deal with tanks and bruisers depends on whether or not they have dot abilities? Why their main HP-busting item has flat penetration? I understand HP on such item, to discourages Ziggs and other Luxes from buying it, but I see no balance reason why say a Zyra deserves better tank-busting than say Syndra

item 3116 : changes to this item didn't hit the goal. It's still utter crap on some, and BS pain to deal with and balance terror on others like Azir

item 3152 : despite, and maybe because, of great amount of "protobelt OP" whining even before it's release, it's a noobtrap. Right now best protobelt user in the game is AP Rango. item 3030 is so useless I almost forgot to include it on the list

item 3041 : "snowball item" that should be a high-risk, high-reward purchase, instead most commonly used as disgusting cheese-strat on super-safe champions like Lux or Janna. Bonus MS making them even safer makes it even worse.

item 3115 : best AS/AP item also being best AP/CDR item makes champion using all it's stats well like Azir, Kayle and - to much lesser extent, tho - Teemo permanent balance issues

Now, while I don't expect Riot to make another big mage patch, I sincerely believe that many of those issues - if there are players who agree with me - could be solved with tiny changes, included to the game one-by-one. For example,nerfing Mejais to grant bonus MS only when moving towards visible enemy champions would easily fix abuse-cases, allowing it to be strong on champions it's supposed to. Granting champions period of immunity to Rylai after being slowed several times in too short window would allow it to be buffed to the point when it's reasonable buy for a mage trying to boost their utility, without making it disgustingly strong on others.

46 Comments

DeathBurst10 votes

Liandry: Tanks are supposed to be the counter to Burst, and are supposed to be countered by DPS, that's why the Tank Busting item synergizes with DoT/DPS and not Burst. That being said, I don't know why it has Flat Pen instead of % Pen.

Rylai: I disagree, this item is good on a large subset of champs, not just on a few outliers that make it completely OP.

Ralanr2 votes

Because stacking MR isn't as great as stacking armor.

Samflash31 votes

Funny enough, I thought they'd pull a Last Whisper to turn Liandrys and Void staff into items to melt champions ala LDR and Mortal Reminder.

DeathBurst1 votes

Well, the AD/AP landscape is not perfectly symmetrical.

There is obviously some leakage at the moment, but on paper, Flat Ar Pen is for Assassins/AD Casters, whereas Last Whisper line is for ADC.

There is no such distinction for AP. AP Assassins, Burst Mages and Battle/Control Mages all draws from the same pool of item. So sure, Battle Mages tend to like Rylai more than Assassins, and other similar trends, but there is no clear cut difference between Burst vs DPS on the AP side of things. And as a consequence, the MR Pen items are a bit strange.

At least, that's my analysis of the situation...

Warmanreaper3 votes

#Nerftibbers Annie

Zero Skill Tank1 votes

Yeah, that one too. I kind of focused on itemization, if I ever don't want to see Annie's face I'll just ban her. Also for some reason she doesn't seem to be popular on my server, unlike Mejai Janna or Rylai Azir.

Quepha3 votes

{quoted}

I see no balance reason why say a Zyra deserves better tank-busting than say Syndra

Zyra deals sustained damage and Syndra is a burst mage. Syndra's job is to blow up squishies while Zyra's is to wear down anyone who stands near her plants. It makes sense for Zyra to get damage that is relevant to everyone while Syndra prefers damage that is only really relevant against squishies.

item 3116 : changes to this item didn't hit the goal. It's still utter crap on some, and BS pain to deal with and balance terror on others like Azir

Items are supposed to be better on some champs than others. That's the point.

Kingnewgameplus3 votes

That would be fine, except that zyra can 1 shot me just about as well as syndra can.

Quepha1 votes

{quoted}

That would be fine, except that zyra can 1 shot me just about as well as syndra can.

That's actually impossible.

Verdade1 votes

Sure, Syndra can do more in 1 button press, but whole combo landed from Zyra does much MUCH more damage and to multiple people

Quepha1 votes

{quoted}

Sure, Syndra can do more in 1 button press, but whole combo landed from Zyra does much MUCH more damage and to multiple people

Syndra Q: 230 + 0.75 AP in an AoE W: 240 + 0.8 AP in an AoE E: 250 + 0.5 AP in an AoE R: 540 + 0.6 AP single target to 1260 + 1.4 AP single target Total burst: 720 + 2.05 AP in an AoE from 1260 + 2.65 to 1980 + 3.45 AP single target

Zyra Q: 180 + 0.55 AP in an AoE E: 200 + 0.5 AP in an AoE R: 350 + 0.7 AP in an AoE plants (R enhanced): 171 + 0.225 AP per hit for first plant, 85.5 + 0.1125 AP per hit for additional plants 730 + 1.75 AP in an AoE. Once Syndra reaches 30 AP (1.5 amplifying tomes), her AoE burst is higher than Zyra's assume Zyra gets 2 seeds randomly spawning in an ideal location and uses W for two more seeds for 4 total 427.5 + .5625 AP every 1.25 seconds. For her single target damage to match Syndra's max base damage, her plants need to swing 3 times which takes 3.75 seconds, which is much weaker than pure burst damage as well as having a lower AP ratio.

Syndra is better at bursting down targets. You are wrong.

Vistha Kai1 votes

Zyra requires no imput to deal damage past the initial burst plus her range is higher, while Syndra needs to get in the danger zone of nearly every single ADC and assassin in the game.

Quepha1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Vistha Kai,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=WOs8J0jj,comment-id=000200000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-07-09T10:57:13.050+0000)

Zyra requires no imput to deal damage past the initial burst plus her range is higher, while Syndra needs to get in the danger zone of nearly every single ADC and assassin in the game.

fun fact: her plants don't auto-target enemy champs anymore, so she actually does need to do something if she doesn't want her plants attacking the wrong targets.

Vistha Kai1 votes

There are no "wrong targets" if she has Rylai's and Liandry's.

Vistha Kai1 votes

Zyra deals sustained damage and Syndra is a burst mage. Syndra's job is to blow up squishies while Zyra's is to wear down anyone who stands near her plants. It makes sense for Zyra to get damage that is relevant to everyone while Syndra prefers damage that is only really relevant against squishies.

As a Syndra main I call bullshit.

First of all, Syndra's range simply isn't high enough to warrant saying, her job is bursting squishies. Her ult's range is slightly higher than Ignite's, for fuck's sake. Not to mention she has no mobility. What she can do, is to punish those squishy fools, who step out of their front line, but even that is risky. 80% of the time she functions as an AoE DPS control mage.

Quepha1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Vistha Kai,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=WOs8J0jj,comment-id=00020001,timestamp=2016-07-09T10:54:36.818+0000)

Her ult's range is lower than Ignite's, for fuck's sake.

This is a lie.

Vistha Kai1 votes

*Checks Ignite's and Syndra's ult's range*

http://i.imgur.com/z69OOQq.gif?noredirect

Not a lie. A confabulation.

Astôlfo3 votes

Mages shouldn't be able to deal with tanks in the first place. Tanks are meant to be the hard counter to the mage. That's why there really isn't tankbuster items.

Rylai's is pretty much perfectly fine right now with the exception of a few.

Protobelt is meh.

Mejai's is rarely ever seen because it's not as reliable as going for straight items as it depends on snowballing (or just being really confident).

Nashor's really isn't a problem.

What was the point of this thread again?

Verdade1 votes

Your opinion is wrong and you should feel bad.

Some mages are just fitted to deal with tanks, either by killing them OR kiting/disabling them. First group consists of DPS mages, such as Ryze, Cass and Azir or straight tank-busters like VK Second group consists of control/zone mages such as Taliyah, Zyra and maybe Viktor These are specifically built to counter tanks and any similar slow-moving unkillable atroticies

Countering tanks doesn't mean killing them in one rotation (Okay, in VK's case it does) but rather denying them from doing their role AND being able to damage them enough so they retreat.

Astôlfo1 votes

Wow, rude much? And I was talking about the general mage. Duh, some mages are meant to disable/kite/zone them/get around them with certain AoE-esque abilities. But I mean in general, tanks are meant to be the counter to most mages. There's exceptions for everything.

Verdade1 votes

Calling someone's opinion bad is rude now? Holy, people get offended about everything nowdays.

If anything, mages always had edge over tanks. You have squishy champion with decent range and either mobility or CC VS tanky MELEE champion. It's natural counter. What counters mages are assasins...

Some mages?

Okay Ahri counters tanks by her reliable low-CD abilities, CC and charms. They just can't catch her :( Anivia zone control, wall+Q stun+ult... Annie is somewhat countered by tanks, but in prolonged trades she comes ahead since she's pretty tanky for a mage, but sure i'll give you this one. Sol kites tanks like no tommorow, DPS, double CC and permaslow? Yes please Azir is obvious tank counter Brand with %max hp damage on every skill, nothing more to say Cassi has DPS but she's fairly squishy, this one might be 50:50, but i'll give it to you Diana is very tanky and is able to dps them down, but again i'll give it to you Fiddle with his double CC and drain... ;) Heimer, don't get me started Kassadin is uncatchable and unkillable by any tank :( But okay, i'll give you even this one Kennen the stunmachine with mobility... LB is more assassin than mage, so she sucks against tanks. But again, unkillable by a tank Liss 2 hard CCs, mobility and permaslow Malz - 2 hard CCs, loves extended fights and has % damage Morgana 2 hard CCs, spellshield Orianna, classic zone/control mage, counters them by default Ryze has spammable root, MS boost, extremely tanky and he has DPS. He's used as tank counter in top lane Swain draintanks any tank, but i'll give this one to you as well Syndra is more burst oriented, so she sucks against tanks. Tali is zone control TF with his permastun? He's fairly squishy tho Veigar gets countered, but his huge stun and massive damage may often bust tanks VK is primary tank buster Gl fighting Vlad with tank Xerath is bad against tanks, that's true, even his massive range doesn't change that Ziggs has reliable DPS and CC/escape. Also zone control

So out of 28 mages only 9 fare badly against tanks. That's "some mages" for you?

Astôlfo1 votes

Or you know, the "Your opinion is wrong and you should feel bad" is just needless attempt at trying to bash someone and makes you look like an asshole. But okay.

Uh, yeah, except the tanks will either just soak up the damage altogether (or at least, they should, but tanks are just crap right now), or just bodyblock it from the people the mages would actually try to target in the first place. And most tanks have a good bit of CC too. That's the point. Tanks are supposed to be the hard counter to burst damage.

Mages are countered by tanks, who are countered by ADCs, who are countered by assassins, who are countered by tanks/CC, etc etc.

Verdade1 votes

League isn't RPS, and there are much more roles than mage/adc/tank/assassin. If you say tanks get countered by ADC's i'd say Malphite. If you say assasins get countered by tanks i'd say Quinn.

There are siege mages, control mages, burst mages, aoe/teamfight mages, utility ADCs, DPS ADCs, even assassin ADC. We got divers, bruisers, pure tanks, light fighters, draintanks, peeling supports, offensive supports... Yes, there are counters, such as siege mages being suicidie against assasins, or pure tanks against bruisers, but even then its not RPS.

Astôlfo1 votes

Duh, there's exceptions to everything. I was just listing a few of the major ones, because listing them all in-depth would take forever. Malphite is literally anti-AD. Quinn isn't a tank or an assassin, so I'm not really sure what the point of that is.

Sure, I could list the interactions between every single one, but it'd be a waste of time. It is more Pokemon-style than RPS. Yes there are counters and Super (x2) or (x4) effective stuff I guess, but that doesn't automatically determine a win. Also there's a lot more facets than just R/P/S, hence it being more like Pokemon, with multiple types.

Ralanr2 votes

You realize that tanks are weak against DPS right? Something that isn't common in Mage damage dealing.

CeexSett1 votes

Well, the 3 most played mages in LCS are DPS mages - Azir Cassiopeia , and to a lesser extent, Viktor .

Even though listing Azir is cheating, because Azir does everything.

Ralanr1 votes

I don't see Viktor as Dps.

CeexSett1 votes

He is Q has like 2 second cooldown, and his E and R hit multiple times, so he is KINDA DPS. just a bit.

Ralanr1 votes

That feels more like burst.

Verdade1 votes

Viktor is control/zone mage above all else. You don't pick Viktor for his damage, you pick him for his utility. Azir/Cass are picks when they want heavy DD

Its the same as picking Ashe over Jinx or Lucian

Sire Hippington1 votes

just with low enough cd to threaten tanks

Ralanr1 votes

Not that I've noticed.

CeexSett1 votes

It IS burst, but has a DPS pattern. It's not completely DPS.

The Yetii Rider2 votes

Riot has discussed this before.

Liandry's Torment exists not to be bought, but to control what other players buy. It has flat MR pen to punish champions who stack health but NOT MR.

In other words, as long as Liandry's is in the game tanks have to buy Spirit Visage or Banshee's Veil. You can't just buy Warmogs and armor and still ignore mages.

The % health damage combined with the MR pen is devastating to anyone who builds health and no MR. And now? Spirit Visage is core on tanks and Warmogs is rare. Working as intended.

Mandang01 votes

Liandry's just sucks because % current HP damage over time is the absolute least rewarding way to deal damage.

PS: Oh, and it's non-stacking damage too.

Verdade1 votes

Liandry is flat out broken on certain champions (Zyra, Rumble, Brand, VK, Teemo). These use it to its full potential, utilizing both flat pen and DOT

All Liandry users except VK also build Rylai's because it synergises very well with both their kits and Liandry itself.

Also, some champions build Rylais without Liandry because they NEED that passive (Azir, Sol, Taliyah) or they are mana-less so they want decent non-mana items (Kennen, Vlad)

Mandang01 votes

It really isn't broken, and it's often incorrectly purchased instead of void staff (I can guarantee the math for Zyra, would bet it's true for VK, and wouldn't be surprised if it's true for Brand). I also think it says a lot that the item is purchased more often at support than in mid.

In any case, I think the item is designed in such a way that it feels unrewarding, even if it's optimal. I also think relying on a %HP DoT as an anti-tank measure is probably missing the point. IMO mage itemization sucks against health stacking, which might be intended. Those mages who outscale it do so because of their kit, not because of itemization (Cass, Azir, Karthus).

Verdade1 votes

Brand abuses it to its fullest potential, every tick of his passive renews it, so hitting enemy with one ability applies Liandry burn for like 5 seconds or so instead of its normal duration. It's literally disgusting, deathfire+liandry brand's E does like 30% of its damage in front and rest is just dots ticking. Add his insane new passive to spread it even more.

Similar can be applied to Zyra, afaik Deathfire support Zyra with Liandry's topped every game's DD charts.

VK sucks with void staff, as huge portion of his damage is true damage, however all his abilities except W apply slow to enhance Liandry's, and remember he's poke mage so he hits stuff often

Sightless661 votes

For example,nerfing Mejais to grant bonus MS only when moving towards visible enemy champions would easily fix abuse-cases, allowing it to be strong on champions it's supposed to.

Seems like it would still be just as bad on the champions you want to be buying it even if you buff the movement speed (closing in is not the problem that the AP assassins have), and Janna/Lux could still stay very safe with it. The MS is a much smaller factor in keeping them safe than their own kits are. I'm pretty sure all that this will accomplish is make it a generally weaker item.

I don't agree with your Rylai's proposal either. I'm not buying it on Syndra or a similar burst mage unless the item is just stupidly OP, because I don't need someone to be slowed after I've already started the 100-0 combo. It serves as a sustained utility item, and the large majority of mages that would care even a little about that can use Rylai's. It is in a fine spot.

I sincerely believe that many of those issues ... could be solved with tiny changes,

Given that I disagree with both of your proposals, I'm less inclined to agree that there are very many "clear win" changes to make.

Elewd1 votes

Rylais is actually one of the most cost efficent items in the game regardless of which mage builds it. High ap and a good sum of hp, and it has a slow tacked onto every spell in your kit.

Liandries is supposed to be a niche item and thats exactly what it is.

Protobelt isn't a noob trap, its fanaminal on mages that are very close range and need a way to stay ontop of their target, Vlad and Galio love this item so much.

100T iLL1 votes

no mention of karthus

Catastrop1 votes

I agree on the Protobelt, but GLP has it's uses.

Critmaster Garen1 votes

{quoted}

item 3151: why mages ability to deal with tanks and bruisers depends on whether or not they have dot abilities? Why their main HP-busting item has flat penetration? I understand HP on such item, to discourages Ziggs and other Luxes from buying it, but I see no balance reason why say a Zyra deserves better tank-busting than say Syndra

mages arent supposed to be able to deal with tanks and bruisers too easily.

if everything can kill tanks, then no one is a tank. what is the point of playing a tank or bruiser if everyone in the game has access to items that flat out negate your main strength?

damage being generally too high is actually a problem this season. tanks are building mage items and damage because they get busted even when building defense. there is no point in building health when everyone deals % health damage. there is no point in building armor when every top tier adc runs item 3071 item 3035 item 3142 . so whats left for tanks? bruiser builds like item 3027 item 3001 item 3068 item 3025 to deal damage to burst squishies instead of building full tank and working off your utility.

the way i see it, there are currently certain dps mages that are designed to take out even tanky targets. Malzahar Brand Cassiopeia Ryze they work more like carries than usual mages.

all the other mages bring high amounts of cc and utility to the game. against tanks and bruisers they wont be able to take them down on their own, but they act as a second support and can kite and cc them for their team. means they will still stay relevant.

Zyra being able to dps down tanks and bruisers is actually a problem imo, since shes loaded with enough utility and aoe cc that she shouldnt be able to also deal this much sustained damage.

Verdade1 votes

item 3030 isn't bad at all, it shines or certain champions (Taliyah for example)

item 3027 is 500/400/100 for 2700 AND requires 10 minutes to get its stats item 3030 is 300/400/80 for 3000 you get it instantly and active is 200+0.35 AP in large zone

So do you want 200 hp and 20 AP or +~400 damage nuke on top of your kit which also slows, allowing easy combo follow-up?

Sire Hippington1 votes

agree on lindrys rylais and meja's(which should have gone together with sword of the occult)

Protpbelt however isn't a noob trap, it's quite strong if used correctly. It's quite alot aditional burst on point blank range(more than twice the damage of the crappy item 3030 ) and gives some extra stickiness and a bit of an escape. It just missed the goal hard, instead of offering outplay potential for impbile mages, it mostly servs as extra burst with a bit gapcloseing, and sometimes as a poor mans flash to escape.

Nashors is a great item that is needed for those kind of champs, as they need cdr for their dps as much as AS. If nashors wouldn't give that combo of stats, they would have huge problems in their builtpaths. The main issue with those champs isn't the fact they use nashors, but more their specific kits and the fact that magic dps is kinda broken as tank itemisation doesn't comprehent both, a magical and a physical dps source. If there wouldn't be a high physical dps source like the adc in the same team, tanks could stack mr and be fine. But with high magical and physical dps, they either stack mr and get shreded by the adc, or they stack armor and the nagic dos melts right through them. Theres a reason why most of the competetive midlaners have really high dps.

LankPants1 votes

Honestly Zyra's just a mess. She's only playable as a support now, she's legit unplayable mid lane since the changes and subsequent nerfs, she's fallen bellow a 50% winrate in spite of her 0.5% pickrate meaning only the most dedicated Zyra mid mains are playing her, it's so sad.

despite, and maybe because, of great amount of "protobelt OP" whining even before it's release, it's a noobtrap. Right now best protobelt user in the game is AP Rango.

Vlad, Annie and TF all make great use out of this item. It's not the strongest item, but it's designed in such a way that it should NEVER be buffed. There's so much potential for a stronger Protobelt to destroy game balance.

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