Untargetability is the most unintuitive, unfun, uninteractive mechanic in league, Change My Mind

Hibeki·Jul 3, 2018·6 votes·2,895 views

Untargetability is the most unfun, unintuitive, uninteractive mechanic. It rips control from the victims hands in a bad way, and the only justification is "outplay".

Its easily accessible and has next to no cooldown for those who play against it. Its taken for granted by the people who use it and to those playing against it its loathed.

This includes

But however does not include or others where its extremely minor, has counterplay, or is not in their control.

It takes no skill to use, no mechanics, no planning, and yet is still massively efficient. Change my Mind.

52 Comments

HalcyonDwellerJul 3, 20187 votes

Eve, Ekko, Kled and Lissandra don't belong on this list.

Also you put Zed twice.

And Zhonya's / stopwatch are counter-able by the fact that they render their user unable to act for a fixed period of time.

I can understand being frustrated with invulnerability, but your argument is stronger if you focus on the solid examples and leave the edge cases out of your post.

HibekiJul 3, 20181 votes

No they all belong, it can dodge turret aggro, dodges abilities, and is on demand safety for anyone on the list. Whether its mobile or not doesnt change the fact of what it is.

MalrothDragoniaJul 3, 20183 votes

Kled's untargetability is not 'on-demand' by any stretch

HibekiJul 3, 20182 votes

Its not ondemand, but it can be predicted and you can plan around when its going to happen to avoid damage or turret aggro. Its by no means as close to as frustrating as the others on the list, but its still there.

M00ndanc3Jul 3, 20181 votes

so kleds can be planned but aatrox and zac can't?

HibekiJul 4, 20181 votes

Revive passives are different, They are lengthy animations that you cant take any sort of action in, and unless aided by many teammates it almost certainly just leaves you vulnerable, while using up a MAJOR resource.

While compared to Kled, its mostly just advantagous, or didn't make any difference which doesnt matter because its not a major resource.

HalcyonDwellerJul 3, 20184 votes

{quoted}

No they all belong, it can dodge turret aggro, dodges abilities, and is on demand safety for anyone on the list. Whether its mobile or not doesnt change the fact of what it is.

The day I see someone use Eve Ult, Ekko Ult, or Lissandra Ult just to dodge an ability or dodge turret aggro is the day I have myself a "bronze spectates" montage. Escaping after a kill is what Eve's and Ekko's ults are FOR. untargetability is like a small tweak made to allow those abilities to function mechanically within the game. If lissandra ults herself then she's harmless to anybody because they can literally just walk away. And Kled can't control when his triggers so what you said above is just objectively false.

Evelynn - Last Caress - COOLDOWN: 140 / 110 / 80

Huh, that doesn't seem very on-demand or available. It looks like it could be forced to be used prematurely and then she will be unable to use it for a very long time.

Ekko - Chronobreak - COOLDOWN: 110 / 90 / 70

Wow, that looks pretty similar to Evelynn's but worse because he has to choose between dealing damage or escaping.

"Upon being reduced to 0 health, Skaarl flees and Kled becomes Skaarl the Cowardly Lizard 2 dismounted."

Wow yes, very on demand. Totally something the Kled player can control and use whenever they like!

Lissandra - Frozen Tomb - COOLDOWN: 120 / 100 / 80

Huh, similar to Ekko and Eve, and much like eve, it could be baited out by forcing her to use it defensively, costing her the opportunity to use it offensively.

HibekiJul 3, 20182 votes

Evelynn's ult is literally made and is used as an execute and an escape, and is also Ekko's most common use of the ult.

While not at the press of the button, Kled can dictate when his passive will go off as an advantage to reset turret aggro.

HalcyonDwellerJul 3, 20183 votes

{quoted}

Evelynn's ult is literally made and is used as an execute and an escape, and is also Ekko's most common use of the ult.

That's the point. The untargetability isn't something that is used just for the untargetability. It's a byproduct of the code being written so that the ability works in the way it would be expected to work. It doesn't affect things that much when those characters are also being teleported far away, hitting them with an ability runs against how the ultimate is supposed to work. If you want them to not be untargetable then you're basically asking for them to lose their ultimate abilities.

While not at the press of the button, Kled can dictate when his passive will go off as an advantage to reset turret aggro.

Dictate does not mean what you think it means.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/dictate

He can play around it. That's very different from making it happen.

When you stop blindly insisting that everything you claimed is true and show consideration for my points I might do the same for you.

HibekiJul 3, 20181 votes

The untargetability is not a byproduct of anything, you could have the ults work and not be untargetable. They made it that way on purpose.

and also

2 a : to issue as an order

It will happen when kled wants it to happen, therefore this fits.

HalcyonDwellerJul 3, 20181 votes

When you stop blindly insisting that everything you claimed is true and show consideration for my points I might do the same for you.

HibekiJul 4, 20181 votes

Its not blind, its fact. You pretending yours is fact doesn't make my points any less true.

HalcyonDwellerJul 4, 20181 votes

You pretending yours is fact doesn't make my points any less true.

HibekiJul 4, 20181 votes

But my points are fact, the abilities are right there my dude.

HalcyonDwellerJul 4, 20181 votes

You equated abilities with other abilities when they were very different. It's fallacious to do that. My whole point was that insisting those things were equatable really hurts the validity of your argument.

HibekiJul 4, 20181 votes

no i equated untargetability with untargetability

HalcyonDwellerJul 5, 20181 votes

{quoted}

no i equated untargetability with untargetability

... while ignoring the differences between the abilities and kits they are attached to in the first place.

LauchmelderJul 3, 20181 votes

Then add GA to that as well. Or remove Zhonyas from the upper list.

Both items do the same thing (in different situations and with different triggers): they save your life.

Saying one is fine while the other is not is hypocritical.

HibekiJul 4, 20181 votes

No, It doesn't belong. Yes it triggers in the same way, but its not used to dodge or reset aggro briefly.

Guardian Angel is only to your advantage if no enemies are around pretty much, It's cooldown is twice that of a Zhonyas and it's only a Zhonya type effect when you die in the middle of your team and they are there to keep you safe. Otherwise its not the same thing.

Dokueki KenshinJul 3, 20185 votes

I partially agree with you. I don’t think that untargetability is bad when it is properly gated by a prohibitive cost or cooldown. My main problem is when it’s a short cooldown and provides too much utility and/or damage. Elise’s untargetability isn’t actually broken imo. Fizz’s is.

HibekiJul 3, 20181 votes

Even when gated by a large cooldown, its still a Get Out Of Jail Free card most of the time.

Vlad is gated by a 28 second cooldown, maxed last, and its still a get out of jail free card.

Dokueki KenshinJul 4, 20182 votes

To a degree, but you can pressure or bait a Vlad into using it and hard punish him within a reasonable time frame. Fizz’s is like 8-10 seconds and does huge damage. There’s a difference.

Also, something to note: if you’re currently being damaged by a DoT (or at least ignite) when you go untargetable, you can’t stop that damage. Though on rare occasion, I have killed a cheeky Fizz here or there with Ignite thinking the Playful/Trickster would help him negate the damage.

HibekiJul 4, 20181 votes

DOT's have basically been removed from league, with the exception of Ignite and Red buff they are few and far between, Most commonly being Brand.

rtbf221651412Jul 3, 20183 votes

item 3157 - Soraka = Snared upon deactivation - Ahri = Well timed charm upon deactivation.

Etc

HibekiJul 3, 20181 votes

But instead you can use it in response to those abilities to avoid them.

DrCyanideJul 3, 20183 votes

So what you're saying is that those players are both interacting around the timing of the item, and how they'll respond if/when it goes off?

Interesting! It's like you've countered your own stance!

HibekiJul 3, 20181 votes

Nope, the user of the item entirely dictates what he avoids and when he uses it. Its not interactive because the enemy has absolutely no way of dictating when its going to happen besides a few key scenarios.

MalrothDragoniaJul 3, 20183 votes

ok, so what you're missing here is the skill test. Both players know that one has access to this tool, so both players need to assess quickly how to respond to that knowledge. Both your scenario and the other person's are correct, do I bait out the untargetable, or fire immediately, do I activate my untargetable now in anticipation of cc, or do I wait to see if they fire it, there is a mind-game here. It's similar to the interaction around riposte in Fiora's kit

HibekiJul 3, 20181 votes

If you both know, and both hold it, the one with the stasis is at the advantage. Untargetability is not primarily an offensive tool while you need to hold your offensive tools because of his. Youre down offensive power and as the fight goes on his defensive power becomes stronger because you are more likely to use yours as a last resort.

MalrothDragoniaJul 3, 20181 votes

yeah, and now it's a tool they're not using, and you can set up a play around it. Neither playing using the ability is part of the skill test too. Eventually that will break and someone will have made the right decision. Where your team is also matters.

420 gramsJul 3, 20183 votes

Stealth is intargetablity but also invisible. That's more unfun to play against

HibekiJul 3, 20181 votes

In a way, but it doesnt prevent skillshots, area of effect, or targeted abilties mid flight. So its a trade off. Its why I didnt put it on the list, as there are still ways you can fight it as uncommon as they may be

Colton147Jul 3, 20182 votes

MasterYi

HibekiJul 3, 20181 votes

I forgot him, but Id place him in the secondary list of not really effected. It only becomes a real nuisance if there are minions nearby, which is not all the time and can actually be a hinderance to him.

HeeroTXJul 3, 20182 votes

{quoted}

I forgot him, but Id place him in the secondary list of not really effected. It only becomes a real nuisance if there are minions nearby, which is not all the time and can actually be a hinderance to him.

I agree with the thread subject, and I was with you until this. Now I'm SQUARELY in the camp with people claiming you don't know what you're talking about. The list goes: Fizz then MasterYi then some others https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZmKdE9qt6E0

HibekiJul 4, 20181 votes

As said, its not in the realm of the others because the window frame is so small for alpha to be used its fairly difficult to dodge most things. Unless minions or other targets are nearby to prolong the untargetability, it isnt much, and even then it can be a DOWNSIDE because its giving your target more time to move into a position that makes you vulnerable.

HeeroTXJul 4, 20181 votes

I'm a Tristana main, I can tell you Alpha can dodge my ENTIRE kit, INCLUDING my ult which is then put on cooldown with ZERO effect on Yi. (ie. I've LOST my ult and Yi has not only not been pushed back but ALSO taken no damage)

Warlord RhinarkJul 3, 20182 votes

Half of the champions you listed aren't even getting played.

HibekiJul 3, 20182 votes

Doesnt matter, still untargetability.

BLACK REALM GODJul 3, 20182 votes

...idk...

i think summoner 1 is pretty "unintuitive, unfun, uninteractive mechanic in league"

or glacial augment.

Fízz v2Jul 3, 20181 votes

uninteractive It takes no skill to use, no mechanics, no planning, and yet is still massively efficient.

point and click/easy to hit cc :]

HibekiJul 3, 20181 votes

Use untargetability to avoid it. Fizz E will stop an Annie Q mid air

Doge2020Jul 3, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Use untargetability to avoid it. Fizz E will stop an Annie Q mid air

What about renekton w? That is instant, single target cc that also does a but load of damage

Critmaster GarenJul 3, 20181 votes

minion block.

CiphonWJul 3, 20181 votes

tbh the only one on this list whose invulnerability actually bothers me is fizz. For the rest it's an ultimate ability or has a higher cooldown (exception of maokai whose w mainly serves the purpose of a cc engage, not dodging damage). I also disagree that it takes no skill to use, since timing the ability to dodge other abilities takes practice. When I play Zed for instance, I often watch my opponents very carefully for when they're going to use a skill shot and use my ultimate right then to avoid the damage/cc. Other times I have to predict when it will happen, thus planning ahead to use my ult at a certain time. It may not take as much skill and planning as you think it should, but saying it takes neither is not true. Plenty of times I miss time it, and either get cc'd before I can ult or after at which point I've lost the fight and possibly my life as well.