Let me get this straight, they nerfed Death fire touch AD ratio instead of nerfing how Jhin uses it?

xxxMadLionxxx·Jul 30, 2017·66 votes·3,150 views

Is that right? So every other AD champ is penalized because of Jhin?

60 Comments

Spice POWAHJul 30, 201735 votes

They felt like all of the AD champs that used it needed a small nerf (Varus, MF, Jhin) so they nerfed the AD part of the keystone. And honestly, they're pretty much the only AD champs that would actually want it AFAIK.

ParoeJul 30, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=Spice POWAH,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=WEPRXkUL,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2017-07-30T18:37:10.244+0000)

They felt like all of the AD champs that used it needed a small nerf (Varus, MF, Jhin) so they nerfed the AD part of the keystone. And honestly, they're pretty much the only AD champs that would actually want it AFAIK.

Actually, any champion who is playing more as a caster wants DFT. The problem with that is jhin is a psuedo caster and MF is a oneclick pony. They arent the champions who DFT was ever intended for, but because of their non-skill reliant long range abilities they use DFT better than varus, jayce, ezreal, lucian, or graves ever could.

AwesomeGuyDjJul 30, 20171 votes

Sadly. And ezreal doesnt use dft from what i understand either, favoring fervor to sprinkle in auto's.

SH AzykanJul 30, 20174 votes

because dft doesnt work with his Q but fervor does

AckelopeJul 31, 20172 votes

ez can't use dft for shit cuz his q doesn't apply it, just like it doesn't apply any other spell effects, just on-hit.

YumaS2AstralJul 30, 20179 votes

Pantheon, Illaoi, and Kayn can also use Deathfire Touch effectively.

Before his rework, Urgot's best keystone was Deathfire Touch.

Essentially, any AD champion that is very focused on casting abilities. (oddly Kha'Zix fits in this category and his Q is single-targeted but Thunderlord's Decree is too good to pass up for him)

AirKingNeoJul 30, 201723 votes

Pantheon can also use TLD.

Illaoi doesn't even DFT.

Kayn only uses DFT for more passive, not damage,

PoskeJul 30, 20173 votes

Well ofcourse illaoi doesnt use this gutted version of DFT

But Strong dft + her e sounds ideal...

PyrithegethonJul 30, 20173 votes

Her E does not apply DFT, it only applies to the spirit.

BLACK REALM GODJul 31, 20174 votes

maybe the poster meant the two tentacles that spawn after successfully using your E on an opponent. if that's what the person meant then i'd agree. because i've killed many recalling/retreating players with those tentacles + DFT burn.

all of illaios tentacles apply dft.

HarIeJul 31, 20171 votes

They might be refering to Illaoi being able to apply DFT to both the enemy champion and their spirit. Sometimes both at the same time.

ZephyrDrakeJul 31, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sub HeroCro,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=WEPRXkUL,comment-id=0002000100000000,timestamp=2017-07-30T21:08:07.070+0000)

Well ofcourse illaoi doesnt use this gutted version of DFT

But Strong dft + her e sounds ideal...

she didn't even use DFT when it wasn't nerfed. She always went for one of the tank masteries because that is where everything she wanted was

KàyleJul 31, 20172 votes

Wait wtf AirKingNeo is using logic? Blasphemy.. Take all the upvotes, you deserve it for once..

FantasySniperJul 31, 20173 votes

Illaoi does use DFT. It's her 2nd best keystone and her only realistic option for damage.

Asayake 5150glowJul 31, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Pantheon can also use TLD.

Panth can't use TLD quite as well though, at least not for laning pressure. 20 extra magic damage on each spear is a lot, actually I think it's stronger than a lvl 1 Tld proc. Tlords is pretty hard to proc on him unless you get into E range (for multiple hits) or use your W. And Panth would really rather prefer to Q spam (he needs to get closer for E poke).

AirKingNeoJul 31, 20171 votes

His AoE thingy procs TLD in one use.

Asayake 5150glowAug 1, 20171 votes

{quoted}

His AoE thingy procs TLD in one use.

It's lower ranged and is delayed though.

Assuming a decent opponent, they won't get into range where E will hit twice (Q is third hit for TLD so no need for full 3 hits).

AirKingNeoAug 1, 20171 votes

WHO GIVES A FUCK ABOUT THE RANGE WHEN HE JUMPS ON YOU?

Asayake 5150glowAug 1, 20171 votes

{quoted}

WHO GIVES A FUCK ABOUT THE RANGE WHEN HE JUMPS ON YOU?

Because Pantheon's W doesn't have a 5 second CD like his spears do... also have the roster can beat Pantheon in a duel if he didnt bother to poke you down first.

AirKingNeoAug 1, 20171 votes

Except he zones you with his Q.

Asayake 5150glowAug 1, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Except he zones you with his Q.

That has nothing to do with his W....

The point is if he W's on you whenever you get into range then you'd simply outfight him half the time.

But if you just merely use Q, you don't get to proc Tlords and DFT is more effective.

If you're planning on W'ing onto them whenever you can to proc Tlords, then there's almost no need for your opponent to get zoned by your Q because you're just gonna jump on them anyway and give them a chance to fight back.

But if you do zone with Q DFT makes that zoning a lot better.

FantasySniperJul 31, 20171 votes

They're going to have to buff Illaoi, but I think that the rest are strong enough without it.

HarrisonOwnsJul 31, 20173 votes

Fuck Illaoi. Keep her in the dumpster.

SohleksJul 31, 20172 votes

It was true at the time those 3 could use a small touch down and all used DFT. However, in my opinion, that was a pretty bad justification for nerfing such a niche mastery. Nerfing DFT for a few characters that would have and did keep on pushing being strong short of their own nerfs removed any possibility other fringe cases could pick it up.

Even on those cases (exept Jhin who gets a warped amount of AD and an unusual amount of ranged single target abilities) its contribution was not super large and took patience to measure a real benefit from unlike more staple masteries like fervor or TLD. MF tends to fringe on the ridiculous side on her own. Varus ended up getting changed himself anyways. Jhin sat unfavorably for a while until item shifts came back to his favor and some minor rebuffs. All nerfing DFT ad ratio did was shut down any possibility it could seriously be used outside those extreme optimal cases.

Not that it matters though. It's unlikely DFT and fervor will stay around for season 8. At least not at the exact same power level.

It basically looked like DFT was nerfed solely for Jhin who was the only AD character it was popularized on. It was good because Jhin kit was practically designed to synergize with it. It was also "good" on MF and Varus too but in no way overbearing. It was hard to even measure DFT's contribution. But it definitely never contributed in any rapid way. It took time to scale and was subtle and limited in direct power. DFT itself had to do FAR more overall game damage compared to alternatives to make up for its lack of burst and time it needed to build up. It was the champs themselves and or were overbearing. The AD nerf of DFT gave me physical in pain for Riot's logical process.

At times I feel like Riot cannot seperate whether a champion is good or an item or mastery. And or actually think it's okay long term to have op class items make up for lacking masteries and or champions ect when all it'll do is cause eventual problems.

Another example of this is the dorans items. DBlade is kept average at best because ranged AD champs are strong in lane and they want to encourage AD to build squishy scaling items and not hp to win lane. But obviously on the other hand DShield and DRing are strong meant to compensate weaker classes (in early lane; tanks being melee and mages being mana restricted). But watch pro league and you'll see everyone has a dshield lol or even Jhin is building a DRing. It's a tad of a warped example but meant to illustrate my point. Certain characters in this game (when played correctly) are more privileged than others. And they often poach the better items and or masteries of weaker classes. Melees can be "strong" and often have high snowballing/all in potential but in a high calibur game the most reliability and self agency is simply in the ranged AD and APCs. It's one reason I mostly play ranged characters (other than enjoying that playstyle). Melee can be good but they are usually always the ranged characters bitch in high level play in this game. Even the assassins are forced to be peasant bruisers most metas if they are allowed to show up. It's merely the absurd power of tank items that makes frontlines so overbearing. But even ranged characters love defensive stats on unbalanced items.

True tanks are allowed to work great usually because they stay within the confines of Riot's teamplay philosophy of what the frontline is supposed to be to make a complete team. But fighters and assassins forever deemed unhealthy when actually good while has some basis in truth has grown ridiculous with Riot's inability to ever make any meaningful updates to fighter characters straight up ignoring most of their s2 character churned designs. It's starting to get better with recent Nasus and Garen changes but they have a LOT to do and trying to update the truly mobile ones is gonna be fun.

Z3SleeperJul 30, 201723 votes

Oh well it's gonna leave next season anyway.

KairoptraJul 31, 20177 votes

Does it even matter? The entire Runes an Masteries system is getting reworked so...

FairyfleurJul 31, 20173 votes

We still have the current mastery system until the season ends, so yes, the balance of the current masteries matter.

KairoptraJul 31, 20171 votes

I suppose you have a point, but I can't imagine it's pretty low on their list of priorities. Why wouldn't they just throw a band-aid over it, rather than wasting more time than they need to with something that'll be gone soon?

HammermancerJul 30, 20176 votes

and varus

honestly it was also varus

BlakiepugJul 31, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=T3H UB3RN07,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=WEPRXkUL,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-07-30T15:39:45.275+0000)

and varus

honestly it was also varus

Except Varus received actual nerfs on top of the DFT nerf, whereas the DFT nerf from my memory was specifically targeted at Jhin and championed as Jhin nerfs.

The LexerJul 31, 20172 votes

I feel like it was always meant to be an AP item. I mean, the 5th tier of the mastery tree is a choice between Lethality and Magic Pen., yet the keystones are two AD based ones (Warlord's, Ferver) and Deathfire Touch, so it seems like DFT was supposed to be for the AP carries

GayFluffyUnicornJul 31, 20174 votes

Welcome to league of marksmen abusing every fucking item and mastery not meant for them leading them to get gutted. Yes like three mages were op with release DFT, we could have just nerfed these champs and leave DFT viable for everyone else but we don't for whatever reason.

Need Gold 4 TentJul 31, 20171 votes

Nah, I think the ferocity tree was meant to have 3 different pathways that disregarded damage types.

A. Defensive option - Warlord's, which we know only works for AD. They should have made it work for AP carries who also wanted a defensive keystone with the other offensive perks of the ferocity tree.

B. The DPS option - Autoattackers including all marksmen and Kayle/Teemo. Most autoattackers tend to be AD but for the fringe cases where they are magic, they still make good use of Fervour.

C. The Caster option - If you throw spells every few seconds, DFT was pretty much a bonus AP/AD ratio - which of course made it nice on casters.

The way it is now:

Warlord's - ADC defensive option Fervour - ADC (and AD fighter) offensive option DFT - Caster option that has been repeatedly nerfed that they might as well go Thunderlord's, that includes for AD casters.

RacoonHunterJul 31, 20172 votes

This is the same balance team that thinks item 3147 is in a great spot right now because the invisibilty portion of it HAS 0 cooldown on it. oh and the fact that it adds over 800-1k of damage to certain champions who already have insane bursts..

GayFluffyUnicornJul 31, 20173 votes

And the best part is marksmen are still building it and bursting me faster than any syndra, ori or assassin.

PePsiLemoNNJul 31, 20172 votes

No they didn't.

[{quoted}](name=Spice POWAH,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=WEPRXkUL,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2017-07-30T18:37:10.244+0000)

They felt like all of the AD champs that used it needed a small nerf (Varus, MF, Jhin) so they nerfed the AD part of the keystone. And honestly, they're pretty much the only AD champs that would actually want it AFAIK.

BlakiepugJul 31, 20171 votes

Yep basically. That has to have been one of the most frustrating balance changes that has happened this year in my eyes.

BLACK REALM GODJul 31, 20171 votes

marksmen and assassins are the champions that will lose out on this the most. most mages use AP and tanks use resolve most of the time anyway. sucks that physical tanks arent going to be able to have the option use dft anymore though. fighters never needed dft in the first place since they have sustained damage and crowd control. the same could be said for figthers since there are some fighters that were playing more poke than all-ins. yorick comes to mind.

big nerf to ezreal

MonkeyMadnessJul 31, 20171 votes

every other AD champ is penalized because of Jhin?

By every other, you mean Varus and MF? Because they're the only 2 AD champs I'm aware of that can even viably use DFT, and they have similar abuse cases to jhin...

Also, how do you propose to nerf "how Jhin uses it"? His kit is his kit, you really can't just up and change it because it synergizes too well with a mastery. However, you can nerf that mastery.

Meep ManJul 31, 20171 votes

You can nerf his numbers if he only takes that Mastery.

MonkeyMadnessAug 1, 20171 votes

And then you make impossible any alternative build paths. It is very toxic for Riot to enforce only a single way to play a certain champ. These masteries are designed to improve variability within each champion's build path. By nerfing a kit such that it requires a specific keystone does the exact opposite.

WukongzJul 31, 20171 votes

Gives me a flashback of when they nerfed the AP ratios because of

RalanrJul 31, 20171 votes

I doubt Jhin would even bother using it with his lethality build. DFT worked so well for him because his AD could skyrocket due to how he gets extra AD from crit and AS items.

Ap Mid BurstJul 31, 20171 votes

I don’t think any other ad champion other than miss fortune, jhin, or Varus use dft

Asayake 5150glowJul 31, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ap Mid Burst,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=WEPRXkUL,comment-id=0011,timestamp=2017-07-31T16:33:22.491+0000)

I don’t think any other ad champion other than miss fortune, jhin, or Varus use dft

Pantheon likes it pretty well, 20 extra magic damage on each spear is no joke, especially at lvl 1.

Meep ManJul 31, 20171 votes

Basically

XxDRAGONsAK47xXJul 31, 20171 votes

Sounds like something Bungie would do.

"Hm... Matador is a little op... Lets nerf all shotguns until they are unusable instead of nerfing just that one."

LùmenAug 1, 20171 votes

Wrong, they nerfed it so all lethality using AD's settle down

PopcornBunniAug 1, 20171 votes

I feel so odded out, but I like deathfire touch much more on poking champions. It can be hard to safely proc thunderlord's, but dft deals consistent damage from single-target spells and abilities much more efficiently, which is a godsend when saving mana is a must, spells have long cooldowns, or you need to set up for an all-in.

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