I think Worlds has proven that Tahm Kench was overbuffed

FalconPawwwwnch··144 votes·7,084 views

I'd be shocked if he isn't nerfed afterwards

He's pretty disgusting atm

143 Comments

SaltyKracka16 votes

Really, they just need to refocus on whether they want him to be uncatchable, unkillable, and able to absolutely shut down any engage or catch whatsoever...

Or whether they want him to be an unkillable unkitable damage monster.

His spread focus and the fact that he's getting picked in so many roles means that Rito needs to tighten up on his identity and focus him either on allies or enemies.

Orangesilk6 votes

"So many roles" He's had a mediocre-to-terrible result in lanes that aren't botlane, and while his botlane strength is undeniable in the competitive scene, pulling that off without great team coordination is next to impossible.

Further on, he's a terrible support during the laning phase, and in the non-competitive meta which is all about winning your lane, he's on the weakside.

Yes, EDG are getting stomped by a Tahm with great team coordination, which is something Rito might want to look into, but no, you're not getting particularly stomped by him, as statistics prove. (No more than 48% WR on any lane).

Verxint4 votes

His winrates approach 60% once people accumulate games on him.

Orangesilk10 votes

I thought this sounded fishy (ehehe) so I had to look it up, lo and behold, champion.gg proves it's bullshit:

Tahm top winrate for players with 125+ ranked games under their belt: 53% Tahm jungle winrate for players with 125+ ranked games under their belt: 50% Tahm support winrate for players with 125+ ranked games under their belt: 50%

And these are the Tahm MAINS, let's see what mains of rather weak champions can do with a lot of single-champion experience under their belts:

Singed top: 55% Poppy top: 57% Poppy jungle: 55% Yorick top: 57% Taric support: 55% Nunu support 54% Aatrox jungle: 58%

So yeah, no.

Aeolian Melodies5 votes

{quoted}

I thought this sounded fishy (ehehe) so I had to look it up, lo and behold, champion.gg proves it's bullshit:

Tahm top winrate for players with 125+ ranked games under their belt: 53% Tahm jungle winrate for players with 125+ ranked games under their belt: 50% Tahm support winrate for players with 125+ ranked games under their belt: 50%

And these are the Tahm MAINS, let's see what mains of rather weak champions can do with a lot of single-champion experience under their belts:

Singed top: 55% Poppy top: 57% Poppy jungle: 55% Yorick top: 57% Taric support: 55% Nunu support 54% Aatrox jungle: 58%

So yeah, no.

These champions are not weak, they're simply not meta.

Verxint6 votes

Are we looking at the same graphs?

http://champion.gg/champion/TahmKench

Every single one of those graphs peaks at 55-60%-ish. I don't know why the data is weird and they fall down, but at 50-125 games all positions for Tahm Kench reach close to 55% or more.

Also a few patches ago these were even higher, actually being 60% at 125+ games, but presumably his popularity has led to people learning more about how to counter him.

HaruteGN12 votes

Can't bench the kenchTahmKench

My Waifu Vanilla6 votes

Permit the kermit unclog the frog

Archon X8 votes

Tahm isn't op, Yellowstar is op. There's a reason he's my favorite player.

Marthian43 votes

Sure he's a skilled player, but regardless, Tahm IS too strong. He's EXTREMELY hard to kill, can build pure tank and still deal a ton of damage, and is too sticky once he catches you.

Malicious Fury6 votes

Her certainly is very sticky. Remember when Xin was that sticky? They dramatically increased the cooldown on his E to compensate.

sup im mario2 votes

Xin is still sticky with such low cooldowns on Q and E.

Malicious Fury4 votes

Xin's E used to be half the cooldown it is now. Unless you had flash you could never escape him.

General Esdeath 15 votes

[{quoted}](name=Archon X,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=WBAug4Yi,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-10-17T16:41:33.334+0000)

Tahm isn't op, Yellowstar is op. There's a reason he's my favorite player.

He's the safest support out there. He can do massive damage, if you get him low he can either pop a shield out of the gray health or back off and heal half of it back, eat the his adc and run away or eat the enemy adc and throw them under turret. The fact that he can solo lane/jungle too just proves they buffed him too much.

AIIan5 votes

{quoted} The fact that he can solo lane/jungle too just proves they buffed him too much.

Since Tahm was originally sold as a toplaner and not a support, this argument is BS.

Aeolian Melodies19 votes

{quoted}

Since Tahm was originally sold as a toplaner and not a support, this argument is BS.

His primary role is support.

youngjake9311 votes

[{quoted}](name=Aeolian Melodies,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=WBAug4Yi,comment-id=0000000100000000,timestamp=2015-10-17T19:36:02.198+0000)

His primary role is support.

His primary role was supposed to be Top just like Blitzcrank. But like Blitz's grab, Kench's ally devour is too good of a supportive ability to not go bot.

Neswii5 votes

He was designed as mainly support and top lane secondary. He was supposed to be strong in both positions, but they wanted his supporting to be his main strength.

RamboDash151 votes

The moment Riot saw how strong Veigar was, despite being sold as a midlaner they nerfed him. They can't ultimately decide who goes where, it's they way people want to play them

Dar Raksada4 votes

{quoted}

The moment Riot saw how strong Veigar was, despite being sold as a midlaner they nerfed him. They can't ultimately decide who goes where, it's they way people want to play them

they can, they recently did it with Mordekaiser

NemeBro6 votes

{quoted}

He's the safest support out there.

Janna is the safest support, and also the safest champion in the entire game.

chipi992 votes

He doesnt heal that much and unless the eneny is braindead they wont go that near to his turret ( he is really slow with an enemy and only spits them directly infront of him). But sure he needs some number tweaks on his ult

KING OF MASKS7 votes

He was strong on release, it's nuts that he's received nothing but buffs since then. Insane tankiness, great damage, ridiculous safety and utility.

magic pole3 votes

agreed, i remember playing against him on release thinking...this champ has way too much damage for his survivability. It's like a Gragas with the damage of an Elise. He faded into obscurity a week or so after his release until the pros played him...

now he is quite common and is an excellent ban.

XD

For Carthage6 votes

Hardly. He's an ass teamfighter. The reason Tahm wasn't overwhelmed in teamfights in most games is that generally his team gets ahead which means that they can stand to lose out on a bit of damage now and again to keep somebody live long enough to regroup them.

The last game with Fnatic and EDG had the vast majority of early fights become scattered, meaning that Tahm could capitalize on what he does best - make picks. He's great as a duelist just initially because of his sheer amount of effective health, CC, and base damage allowing him to tank to his heart's content, but he suffers heavily from hard-engage comps because Tahm can only save one person at a time, and generally if he's locked down with that person inside, then that person's also about to go down with him - he'd be spitting them out into a death-trap.

Tahm's just relatively new to the scene while also being so underplayed upon release that more often than not the first thing said by someone after trying to fight Tahm is "What the fuck is that damage?" But here comes basically every game where I play against a Tahm - I go an AP mid, grab Rylai's, sit back and relax as I make him so atrociously kiteable that you'd think he'd need the Skarner treatment. The top rages, and I say, "It's fine. Just relax for a bit, take gromp, and just wait until later." And out of the 8 times I've seen him on the enemy team in ranked, I've come out the victor in all but one.

Honestly, if EDG had went CDR Veigar and just had him spam his wall into oblivion, Tahm would have been bordering on worthless, and so would have Riven. But EDG was already criticized for trying to quickly learn the Veigar siege comp, and they probably rushed the Veigar basic training as well, which boils down to wall as much as you can forever always in every fight. The amount of spacial control they'd have gained from Ionian boots alone would have been bullshit.

Point is, give Kench some time - he can be scary alone, but there's safety in numbers. Especially considering he has literally no AoE besides spitting minions at people.

Irelia Bot4 votes

how was he buffed?

I kinda have stopped playing since riot is losing their mind with over buffing champs like Garen and Darius.

Aeolian Melodies14 votes

[{quoted}](name=Irelia Bot,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=WBAug4Yi,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2015-10-17T16:43:54.877+0000)

how was he buffed?

I kinda have stopped playing since riot is losing their mind with over buffing champs like Garen and Darius.

He's literally been receiving buffs every patch (save for the last one) since his release. Riot overtuned the fuck out of him so that people would finally play him and they could be like "omg look our new support such successful design". It happened previously with Bard.

Troll for Trump9 votes

"Oh look a champ was played by a pro he must be broken af right?" no. Same thing with veigar.

Aeolian Melodies6 votes

{quoted}

"Oh look a champ was played by a pro he must be broken af right?" no. Same thing with veigar.

It's not just "a" pro. His combined pick + ban rate is ridiculous.

Troll for Trump3 votes

If you want broken, vayne.

Meep Man8 votes

Bard has never reached OP status.

DEN TEL0S3 votes

You haven't seen AD bard.

WolfBV1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Irelia Bot,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=WBAug4Yi,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2015-10-17T16:43:54.877+0000)

how was he buffed?

I kinda have stopped playing since riot is losing their mind with over buffing champs like Garen and Darius.

His patch history so far.

V5.18:

Tongue Lash Smoothed out the interaction between the Tongue Lash.png Tongue Lash + Devour.png Devour combo for normal cast. Now, casting Devour.png Devour at any point while the tongue is mid-air will allow you to eat a monster or minion from a distance instead of needing to left-click devour mid-lash. Thick Skin Grey health now has a colorblind variant. V5.17:

An Acquired Taste Duration of debuff when applied by basic attacks increased to 7 seconds from 5. Devour Enemy champion regurgitate range increased to 200 from 100. V5.16:

Stats Armor growth increased to 3.5 from 3. Devour Now prioritizes champions over minions. Enemies regurgitated are now stunned for 0.25 seconds. Abyssal Voyage Warning particle for enemies now only appears during the 0.5 second delay. V5.14:

Tongue Lash Base damage increased to 80 / 125 / 170 / 215 / 260 from 80 / 115 / 150 / 185 / 220. Abyssal Voyage Cooldown reduced to 120 / 110 / 100 seconds from 160 / 130 / 100. Passive health ratio increased to 4 / 6 / 8 % of his maximum health from 4 / 5 / 6 % of his maximum health. V5.13: Added July 9.

So far all buffs.

Troll for Trump3 votes

Bullshit. Almost all of those are clarity things. Q+W interaction: smoother gameplay gray skin: colorblind variation: QoL for the colorblind Aquired Taste Debuff: 7 seconds: Yeah that is a buff Devourer Range: Neutral, not really a buff or nerf

Armor Growth increase: buff Devourer prioritizing champs over minions: QoL Regurgitated are stunned for 0.25s: Always has been that way, they just write it out as a stun. Earlier they just did nothing while the animation played out. Abyssal Voyage: Idk what they mean by that, but if you can't see the slimy watery blue pathway or hear the global sfx....

Only in the last patch are there all siginificant buffs.

So honestly just be quiet. If they need to nerf anything, it's thresh vayne morde, and dar.

WolfBV2 votes

I posted a patch history for someone that wanted to know what buffs tam has gotten, so just shut the fuck up. Why are you starting shit for no reason?

Meep Man4 votes

Except none of what he was buffed in is why is being played.

Dalthine3 votes

Sadly this is what happens with pretty much every champion.

  • They're released. No one knows how to build/play the new champ yet so they wind up with low play rates for a bit and people don't take advantage of strengths to see how good they are.
  • Riot takes the time to buff them because they're not seeing play and win rates are low, and they want to ensure exposure (/sales) for their new champ.
  • The community lags behind the strength so by the time they realize the champ is good they're already fully OP from multiple buffs.
  • Riot nerfs to bring them back into line.

Every champion in recent history has followed this pattern, unless they're released in an already OP state. Even Kalista received buffs the first time she was changed after release. I expect Kindred will be the same way. The only thing you can hope is that they're not nerfed to the point they're gutted once the playerbase catches up.

grafix2 votes

Worlds has prove that EU >>>> NA

Anidan8 votes

Cool. This conversation is about Tahm, though. You can talk about regional superiority and bragging rights over on a topic that supports it.

darkchan52 votes

tahm was actually barely buffed at all, the passive damage was only an extra one percent at level 11 and 2 at level 16, these changes have very little impact on support tahm as he doesnt get as much health. the base damage for his q was increased by 10 at rank 2 20 at rank 3 30 at rank 4 and 40 at rank 5, which is a very small buff that doesn't make a huge difference, the cd on his ultimate, while it was a substantial buff, i think its in a much better place now then it was before. and the range he spits out enemies with devour really doesn't do that much.

the things that make tahm so strong are the things they never touched, his e and devouring allies. his e give him a ton of natural tankyness, and basically says "i take 20% less damage from trades in lane." and his devour is like a thresh lantern that gets people out of trouble, but it doesn't matter if they are cc'ed. his devour is to powerful an ability right now, you cant really punish him for a bad use of his devour by diving one of their carries, as it has a 10 second base cd at rank 5 (and 14 at rank 1)

TL;DR nerf the cooldown on devour its got way to much power for a 10 second cooldown ability

Ironclad Dragon2 votes

Why isn't LeeSin ever nerfed for long?

alfavhunter1 votes

[deleted]

HaIlMonitor7 votes

AP scaling doesnt matter lol. They need to reduce the health % damage.

Retillin9 votes

In fact, they should INCREASE his AP scaling. And lower his flat numbers. Force him to pick either damage or tank. Not both.

HaIlMonitor1 votes

That would be best. I dont get why a hand full of tanks have HP-Damage scaling. They all do a ridiculous amount of damage.

ModAcademy Kayn2 votes

The thing is after a tank has done his CC, he simply becomes a wall that is not bothered with. They just walk around it. HP Scaling keeps Tanks relevant after there CC is done, and Enforces the need of Peel an enemy team needs to protect their carries.

Aeolian Melodies3 votes

{quoted}

The thing is after a tank has done his CC, he simply becomes a wall that is not bothered with. They just walk around it. HP Scaling keeps Tanks relevant after there CC is done, and Enforces the need of Peel an enemy team needs to protect their carries.

He's supposed to be a support. Considering how much he can save someone's ass by devouring them, he does not need to pose a damage threat to be relevant.

ModAcademy Kayn2 votes

Actually Tahm was made without any paticular role in mind, as is shown with his ability to top lane. He just has supportive qualities that allow him bot. Think Nautilus for example. Primarily Tank, but can support because of his engage, cc, and peel.

HaIlMonitor1 votes

Have you never seen a Maokai or Gragas They dont have HP scaling and have lots of short/midrange CC skills and do a large amount of damage. But hell champions are only good if they have two life bars, more CC then Naut and Leona, and blow up carries faster then assassins all in what kit.

ModAcademy Kayn2 votes

I'd say those would be outliers in their comparisons. Maokai is picked for his click and point cc AND his ability to mitigate damage around him. He doesn't need damage to be useful even when his Cc's are on CD because of his Ult.

Gragas has percent health damage (Not HP Scaling Damage) and provides a large disruption and sticking power. He also survives longer due to his drinking.

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