Wasn't Gragas ult gutted because of the same thing Lee Sins's ult does ?

option paralysis·Jan 18, 2017·93 votes·4,976 views

Nobody plays Gragas anymore because he's clunky as shit. I played him since s5 and now I didn't touch him since the nerf. I just can't play with that dumb ult, but I see why it was nerfed. No counterplay when he E flashed and ulted you in his team... however my point is, lee sin does the exact same thing with his R flash with no counterplay. He also has for a while now a 25-35% pick rate. Sooooo, why was Gragas gutted through clunkiness to the point you never see him in games anymore and Lee 'the gold boy of riot' Sin can insec whoever he wants for years with 30% pick rates.... ???

95 Comments

dunder killJan 18, 201740 votes

Lee Sin: single target

Gragas: can displace the entire enemy team

PokladnicaZlaJan 18, 20178 votes

Umm,doesn't Lee's R function as like an AoE ability?

Spaceman5pffJan 18, 201718 votes

Conditionally.

If you use it to make picks, it will effectively be single target. If you use it to engage a teamfight, it can act as AOE.

TECHNICALLY the same can be said for gragas ult, but the issue with that was he didnt need to stun to get a good ult off. Now he needs to stun. It sucks, but I get why they did it.

sir d wreckJan 18, 20173 votes

And that's why you don't compared two different abilities on two different champs.

Guyy FieriJan 18, 20174 votes

{quoted}

Lee Sin: single target

Gragas: can displace the entire enemy team

?

Lee kick can knock up the entire team...

Mecha MaIphiteJan 18, 20172 votes

but can he knock them to the four corners of the map, without even needing to get in melee range?

EedatJan 18, 20178 votes

Yeah dude the enemy team lines up in a perfectly straight line all the time. It's totally comparable to Gragas' AoE displacement. Completely equivalent scenarios. I mean if you've never played league you would agree

The boards

Ariel the CruelJan 19, 20176 votes

Gragas ult is also ranged. Lee has to face-check the target.

Mr NoggenfoggerJan 19, 20171 votes

The gragas nerf was that it always takes the same time for the ult to go off instead of going off when the barrel reaches the target. Nothing about his ult was changed at range

Ariel the CruelJan 19, 20174 votes

The OP is asking why Grag's ult was stronger than Lee's (in terms of the displacement). Not how it was nerfed.

In that respect, the differences are:

-Targetability Lee hits one person, Gragas hits an area.

AoE Lee displaces 1 person and maybe knock-up one or two more, Gragas' displaces entire teams.
safety Lee has to touch noses with his target, Gragas does it from 1000 range.

13900 EssenceJan 19, 20171 votes

To be fair, you also have to predict movement with gragas ult since it is not point and click. So if you don't get an e knock-up its more difficult to land, especially if the enemies have their movement summoners up.

Lee ult while it is single target and melee range, it is point and click and locks the enemy in unless they flash frame perfect/cc cancel/buy a qss.

And don't forget that while gragas has e and flash to set up the ult, lee sin has q, w, and flash.

-salty former gragas main-

Ariel the CruelJan 19, 20171 votes

And don't forget that while gragas has e and flash to set up the ult, lee sin has q, w, and flash.

As a whole, Lee's kit makes him far worse than Gragas. We're only looking at the displacement power in their ults.

That said, Lee's mini-stun -> auto-hit is a fair point. But that still leaves them 3-1.

Edge of DaybreakJan 18, 201724 votes

Lee sin ult is not a ranged, AOE, AP nuke.

TorgalJan 18, 20173 votes

[deleted]

Edge of DaybreakJan 18, 201710 votes

{quoted}

It's an potential AOE, AD nuke with a %hp scale (secondary targets only), 50 meters knock back with ridiculous CD and no cost.

Potential doesn't make it equivalent though. It's a hell of a lot easier for gragas to hit his ult from a range and hit multiple people than it is for lee to hit multiple people when his is a skillshot after he kicks you. The comparison just doesnt work especially considering gragas could follow this up with 2 more AOE nukes. I get that people dont like lee sin but anyone agreeing with op's clearly fucked up argument is just silly.

option paralysisJan 18, 20173 votes

{quoted}

Potential doesn't make it equivalent though. It's a hell of a lot easier for gragas to hit his ult from a range and hit multiple people than it is for lee to hit multiple people when his is a skillshot after he kicks you. The comparison just doesnt work especially considering gragas could follow this up with 2 more AOE nukes. I get that people dont like lee sin but anyone agreeing with op's clearly fucked up argument is just silly.

Did I say anything about gragas hitting ult from a far ? He got nerfed only for his melee range ults that had no counterplay and is what this whole post is about. But no, you put words into my post and then say it doesn't make sense. Holy jesus.

dunder killJan 18, 20174 votes

If you're using Lee's ult for an Insec initiation, it's not an AOE ability. Unless the enemy team happens to be lined up in a straight line in a small area in which case you were fucked to begin with.

Lee's gapcloser also isn't an instant hard CC when partnered with flash which gives you time to react.

Lee's ult also didn't simultaneously send the rest of the team flying away from the target you're trying to pick off which gives the team a better chance to react as a whole

This comparison is ridiculous. All aboard the Lee Sin QQ train!

JafarThePandaJan 18, 20173 votes

{quoted}

Lee sin ult is not a ranged, AOE, AP nuke.

but lee sin's kick actually does damage with just one damage item meanwhile gragas has to go full ap for it to do a comparable amount

Mecha MaIphiteJan 18, 20172 votes

Do you want old gragas back where he pressed R and one-shot your entire team?

JafarThePandaJan 19, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Mecha MaIphite,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=W83p0LtI,comment-id=000000020000,timestamp=2017-01-18T21:51:44.934+0000)

Do you want old gragas back where he pressed R and one-shot your entire team?

I main gragas and he never one shot your whole team even with full ap unless you built ZERO fucking resistances and took NO resistance runes

MunchCrunchLunchJan 19, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Lee sin ult is not a ranged, AOE, AP nuke.

you know lee sin ult has enemy hp scaling as an aoe nuke which is better right?

Edge of DaybreakJan 19, 20171 votes

{quoted}

you know lee sin ult has enemy hp scaling as an aoe nuke which is better right?

DolasaurJan 19, 20171 votes

Also, the enemy hp scaling is bonus health. So when you're disengaging and you kick a tank, it's strong. But damage doesn't matter [as much] when you're disengaging. And if you're using his kick for initiation, it's usually on a squishy with 300 or less bonus health. That's like 50 damage on collisions :)

Serika ZeroJan 19, 20171 votes

yes, its single target 100-0 combo piece in less than 2 seconds while being build full tank

Edge of DaybreakJan 20, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Serika Zero,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=W83p0LtI,comment-id=00000004,timestamp=2017-01-19T12:27:43.132+0000)

yes, its single target 100-0 combo piece in less than 2 seconds while being build full tank

single target. single target. single target. single target. single target. single target. single target. im actually typing these out and I shouldnt be but screw it why not. single target. single target. Had to take a burrito break im sorry. single target.

Serika ZeroJan 20, 20171 votes

lee can't 100-0 your entire team while being build tank, only 1 target you probably got some issues

Edge of DaybreakJan 20, 20171 votes

I have no idea why you are telling me this but

Congrats you have identified that lee sin cannot 100-0 your entire team. This has nothing to do with the conversation at all but congrats! BTW the thread is about gragas ult vs lee sin ult just to catch you up. Also if lee sin has even built one damage item it's not full tank.

EedatJan 18, 201720 votes

Gragas' ult scattered entire enemy team. It is a much stronger team fighting tool. That's why Lee sin was never even picked if gragas was available until the nerfed him repetitively

Akali is SO HOTJan 18, 201713 votes

When you compare a ranged, massive AoE displacement spell to a melee, single target displacement spell

Snowman ArcJan 19, 20172 votes

Like, people see two abilities that do the same thing in one part of them, and somehow they both need to be equally the same. That's like saying "why does Ezreal have a blink and Lucian doesn't, omg buff Lucian we need his E to be a blink" rofl.

Seriously, some people have ZERO aspect for how the game is supposed to work.

dominusxJan 18, 20179 votes

well annie still flashes and does 800dmg to you while popping a pet that procs spell effects and has an in built sunfire cape plus having a movespeed buff to run you down. But oh well Annie has lower range than a lot of midlaners so it's fine to have an instant aoe nuke that stuns people.

FairyfleurJan 18, 20175 votes

You can make any champion sound overpowered and overloaded if you say it like that. Here, let me try. Aatrox is such an op champion!! He has a built in bloodthirster for free. He has an escape and knockup put together in one ability. Both these together make him have tons of utility and dueling potential! You can never go up to cs because he just throws a long range projectile at you! He also has a FREE built in Guardian Angel! Thats tons of gold but for free! That passive also gives free lifesteal too!

LankPantsJan 18, 20177 votes

Annie is relatively squishy, immobile, has a kit that does exactly one thing, doesn't knock you back into her team so it's overall less of a deathsentence.

Lee Sin is far tankier, has actual mobility and has an insane kit outside of his ult-flash combo.

These champs aren't even comparable.

YumScrumptious96Jan 19, 20172 votes

I don't think you've seen the new Annie builds, she's not very squishy any more. Lee is only tanky if he builds tank items, which means he sacrifices damage. Annie can go semi tanky while still getting very good damage.

13900 EssenceJan 19, 20172 votes

item 3116 item 3151 item 3027 item 3001 item 3157 I feel like AP items give too much tank stats sometimes. I'm still waiting for an AD/Armor item so if I play ADC or something like GP top I don't get deleted by the zed that went 5/0/0 in lane.

LooknookJan 18, 20172 votes

Her ult is no longer instant you have a moment to react now and either, flash away, use a mobility spell or take it like a man!

SwarovskoJan 19, 20171 votes

Keep arguing about a champ's strenghts instead of arguing about their strenghts AND weaknesses.

dominusxJan 19, 20171 votes

i dont see anyweakness apart from not having gianorous range, it's not like she can survive with tibber or anything. but oh well it's league if it's braindead cancer it's fine.

A Basic IslandJan 18, 20174 votes

lol'd comparing something ranged and aoe to something melee

stay bronze. boards will never cease to amaze me

option paralysisJan 18, 20177 votes

[{quoted}](name=A Basic Island,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=W83p0LtI,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2017-01-18T14:37:33.527+0000)

lol'd comparing something ranged and aoe to something melee

stay bronze. boards will never cease to amaze me

I'm diamond for 2 seasons, you're unranked with 0% win rate on lee with a kda of 2/10/0. If you wanted to insult with the "lol bronze" I think it backfired. And I specifically said E flash R gragas because that's melee and riot specifically said that's why he got nerfed, thus my whole post. I didn't say anything about his R hitting from long range because that's still the same, the nerf was for his melee range only. Think it through next time.

JoseraphJan 18, 20176 votes

boards will never cease to amaze me

Spaceman5pffJan 18, 20172 votes

Riot specifically said that the issue was his lack of reliance on a stun to land a good ult.

He could just get near you and POOF knock you into his team. They want him to rely on landing his stun to make these picks.

A Basic IslandJan 18, 20171 votes

diamond 2 yet no forum badge interesting

stay bronze

nice looking at games from 6+ months ago lmfao

also pretty interesting literally everyone said the same exact thing

TLDR: you're bronze or got boosted

VoidStaresBackJan 18, 20177 votes

A quick check to their OP.gg reveals that they are Plat 1 right now, Diamond in seasons five and six, and plat in season 4. It's really not that hard to confirm what they said, if you feel like being anything but randomly toxic.

macromiteJan 18, 20172 votes

Tsk Tsk, you're on gameplay and you expect people to not be randomly toxic?

Ionian VulpixJan 18, 20172 votes

Maybe it's because I didn't play Gragas before the nerfs, but he still feels ok to play.

Friendly RamJan 18, 20172 votes

how was it gutted by giving it a small cast time? no insult intended just don't get the point.

The DeckownerJan 18, 20172 votes

It wasn't a cast time nerf, it was a travel time nerf, making his ult in short range basically meaningless if the enemy is not cc locked, because the projectile float in the air for the same amount of time no matter how far you throw it.

TheOnlyJoeJan 18, 20172 votes

As much as i hate Lee, Gragas his ult was way more bullshit, and it's still crazy strong. It can do serious damage to squishies and if thrown properly can completely fuck up the enemy team