Sona is an outdated and thus flawed character design.

only zhule·Nov 28, 2018·4 votes·2,039 views

I'm not even going to point to her clear issues (mobility, low health, etc..). I would just like to address the fact that her kit is for all intents and purposes designed to function at 50%+ CDR..... Or with a metric ton of AP. Honestly play her in like 3 games and tell me she doesn't feel clunky and useless till you meet one of those two requirements. Yeah i get it everyone needs some built in weakness, that they can over come via whatever, but that weakness should not be fucking max CDR and/or 2 full built AP items on a support.

And what really gets me is i'm sure that Riot knows she needs to be updated to fit what the game has become, but "fixing" her is such a low priority. She feels like the metaphorical squeaky door hinge that you were going to deal with till the basement flooded, then the stove broke, then you had to deal with a insect infestation, etc... You want to fix the issue, but there is just so much more important stuff to deal with, and it's not like a squeaky door hinge is going to ruin your day.

I would also like to point out that her offensive support (non ultimate) "thing" is probably the least meaningful one in the game. To be more clear as to what i mean, imagine you got hit by Sona AA+Q+ empowered AA. Now how do you feel compared to when you get hit by ANY other 'supports' primary offensive ability; IE 's hook, 's bubble, 's root, 's polymorph, knock up.

36 Comments

MagicFlyingLlamaNov 28, 20184 votes

Or you are just using Sona wrong.

only zhuleNov 28, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Or you are just using Sona wrong.

Care to actually give advice are just here to act smug?

MagicFlyingLlamaNov 28, 20181 votes

Run at shit and apply lichbane.

chipndip1Nov 28, 20181 votes

Aight so you need to stop telling people how to play Sona if the first idea that comes to mind is Lich Bane and not Athene's.

MagicFlyingLlamaNov 28, 20181 votes

Gross heresy

Ok, it is an option, but only if you can rely on your ADC to run at shit in your place. When does that actually happen?

Supports exist to apply 170% AP ratios to unsuspecting fools.

chipndip1Nov 28, 20181 votes

...no

Athene's is blatant healing. Healing is universal. I didn't say "Ardent".

MagicFlyingLlamaNov 28, 20181 votes

ADCs exist to take CS, complain, and be a useful distraction as they frantically try to farm under tower due to mistakenly thinking Ashe E is a waveclear tool.

CatffeineNov 28, 20183 votes

Statistically, Sona has the highest winrate for supports in Platinum elo and higher. The major problem a lot of people face when playing her is trying to play her like any other support, when she has clear weaknesses that make her not able to be played like any other support. People assume that just because she has a pokey Q like Nami's W or Lulu's Q that she needs to move as far up as them to get poke, but the difference is both Nami's W and Lulu's Q are long range and both Nami and Lulu have a way to prevent taking damage when poking. People assume that just because she has a strong heal/shield like Soraka/Thresh that they need to spam it to protect the ADC. People assume that just because she has a movement speed increase like Nami/Rakan that it has to be used every time the player engages.

Factually, using these abilities wrong can cause the player to end up wasting her small mana pool. Learning when to use each ability is crucial to a Sona's gameplay. Spamming Q can result in taking significant amounts of damage for very little result and drain her mana quick, especially if they're getting in auto attack range to use the power chord. Spamming W, for obvious reasons, will just drain Sona's mana. The ADC shouldn't be taking so much damage that the Sona feels the need to spam W. That's a fault in the ADC but an even bigger fault in the Sona for wasting the mana when not needed. Using E to engage can result in Sona being trapped when a disengage needed, or it being on cooldown when the power chord is needed. Her E can be used as a form of kiting for the ADC to safely get in more damage.

And the most common error players make is not using the proper power chord in each given situation. They think the damage one is going to be the best in every situation because yay damage! Realistically, the slow power chord is the strongest as, aforementioned, it empowers the ADC's ability to kite/poke safely. The armor shred one can be stronger than the damage one in the sense that Sona can use it and back off safely to avoid the Sona from taking too much damage or potentially dying.

A lot of Sona also has to do with positioning. As squishy as she is, she shouldn't be playing nearly as aggressive as the ADC. And lastly, her ult is a long duration AoE stun, so it should be an ultimate rather than a Q, etc. It's really all about using the right abilities at the right time and positioning properly, like any champion. Sona is unique. Her kit isn't like any other support. Play her like a Sona, not a Thresh/Nami/Lux/Lulu/Rakan.

Source to Sona's Winrate: https://champion.gg/statistics/#?sortBy=general.winPercent&order=descend&roleSort=Support

deadlychuckNov 28, 20181 votes

I would like to point out that your opening inference is irrational and just false

outdated and thus flawed

and there's a pretty obvious argument that the existence of the excessively offensive designs of the kits of a support champion, particularly in the cases of thresh or rakan, is actually a more flawed design for a support as it fills a role that is antithetical to the support fantasy.

only zhuleNov 28, 20181 votes

{quoted}

I would like to point out that your opening inference is irrational and just false

and there's a pretty obvious argument that the existence of the excessively offensive designs of the kits of a support champion, particularly in the cases of thresh or rakan, is actually a more flawed design for a support as it fills a role that is antithetical to the support fantasy.

That doesn't change the fact that they exist and that support has shifted towards rewarding kits with high base damage, stuns, engage/disengage tools, or other means of interacting with the game that don't require you to have max out CDR.

Let's look at Sona at level 9. Assuming you focused on damage your Q is now doing 160 base damage at rank 5 with a base cooldown of 7.2 seconds. Your heal is doing a base 50 points with a base cooldown of 9 seconds. These are REALLY bad numbers both in amount and how long their cooldown is. If we assume you focused on healing, your numbers are Q= 70 magic damage, and you are healing for 110. Again these are really bad numbers for a champion at level 9. Maybe you are going to argue that i need to account for item CDR and AP, sure what do you think is a fair number at that point in the game? I'm going to say 35% CDR and 75 AP, no bonus healing from items. Your numbers are now 205 damage on a 4.68 second cooldown, and a heal of 69 on a 5.85 second cooldown if you went offensive, and 115 damage and 129 healing if you went supportive. These remain very bad numbers considering that Sona doesn't have a second offensive spell, and doesn't have a stun outside of her ult (that would have a 91 second cooldown).

The issue is simply that Sona is based around casting a lot of small impact spells, compared to most other champions who are based around landing one big impact thing ( Leona being a good example of a champ that needs to usually use 2 abilities for the one big impact thing). Even when you get something like item 3100 your power comes from being able to abuse the trigger multiple times rather then one shot with it.

KalikkoNov 28, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=only zhule,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=W7zH4d1F,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2018-11-28T01:29:44.272+0000)

That doesn't change the fact that they exist and that support has shifted towards rewarding kits with high base damage, stuns, engage/disengage tools, or other means of interacting with the game that don't require you to have max out CDR.

Let's look at Sona at level 9. Assuming you focused on damage your Q is now doing 160 base damage at rank 5 with a base cooldown of 7.2 seconds. Your heal is doing a base 50 points with a base cooldown of 9 seconds. These are REALLY bad numbers both in amount and how long their cooldown is. If we assume you focused on healing, your numbers are Q= 70 magic damage, and you are healing for 110. Again these are really bad numbers for a champion at level 9. Maybe you are going to argue that i need to account for item CDR and AP, sure what do you think is a fair number at that point in the game? I'm going to say 35% CDR and 75 AP, no bonus healing from items. Your numbers are now 205 damage on a 4.68 second cooldown, and a heal of 69 on a 5.85 second cooldown if you went offensive, and 115 damage and 129 healing if you went supportive. These remain very bad numbers considering that Sona doesn't have a second offensive spell, and doesn't have a stun outside of her ult (that would have a 91 second cooldown).

The issue is simply that Sona is based around casting a lot of small impact spells, compared to most other champions who are based around landing one big impact thing ( being a good example of a champ that needs to usually use 2 abilities for the one big impact thing). Even when you get something like your power comes from being able to abuse the trigger multiple times rather then one shot with it.

I think you are missing a key idea here.

Sona is an enchanter support. Most of her value lies in buffing her allies. Her base damage is nice, and at times useful, but her true value lies in the buffs she spreads out to her entire team and the debuffs she places on enemies.

Add those factors into your math. I'll wait.

only zhuleNov 28, 20181 votes

{quoted}

I think you are missing a key idea here.

Sona is an enchanter support. Most of her value lies in buffing her allies. Her base damage is nice, and at times useful, but her true value lies in the buffs she spreads out to her entire team and the debuffs she places on enemies.

Add those factors into your math. I'll wait.

Ok i HAVE to fight you on this one. 10-52 bonus magic damage on a single auto attack (not against structures) is a pretty piss poor enhancement. A 25-50 point shield that lasts 1.5 seconds is really lack luster. Plus 30-35 MS for 3 seconds is "nice" but often not enough to get you / your ally into or out of range.

Sure these numbers are much different when you look at her late game, at the point where you are tagging multiple allies and have the AP to make each instance of the numbers impressive. But again i am trying to focus on her early game. The point where you don't have max CDR and 25-40% bonus CDR on basic abilities. The point where you are most likely tagging a single ally.

Hell let's imagine the smallest of small changes to Sona, her Q bonus damage lasts 3 seconds (would prefer 4-5) and CAN NOT be used against minions. How much of a difference does that make to how you and your ally interact with the game? Let's go a step further, her bonus damage also can be applied by abilities, now all of a sudden tagging Ahri actually helps her do more damage.

deadlychuckNov 28, 20181 votes

That doesn't change the fact that they exist and that support has shifted towards rewarding kits with high base damage, stuns, engage/disengage tools

Yes, and ask anyone who was playing support before Thresh hit the scene, and they'll tell you that they fucking hate this shift in design. It's designed to appeal to people who would rather be playing top lane or jungle, and have no business getting priority in the support role over the players who enjoy an actual support playstyle that can't be played elsewhere.

chipndip1Nov 28, 20181 votes

All he does is hook and create picks. What does that have to do with top lane?

You're acting like Leona is somehow a DEFENSIVE champion.

deadlychuckNov 29, 20181 votes

No I'm not. There's a big difference between the design philosophies of Leona and Thresh. Thresh has set a precedent for the support role that the rest of the position was then balanced and redesigned around. Leona has always played much like Alistar , but Thresh plays much like LeeSin

He has little risk, but very high influence.

He takes all of the strengths of both designs of Leona and Blitzcrank styles, while simultaneously reducing the risks associated with either. This resulted in other supports having to be made more aggressive, after they were buffed in their old actual supportive designs, because those were considered unfun when taken to an equal degree of power as Thresh. But again, they set him as the standard from the popularity of the new audience playing the support role. Not the existing audience of the support role, and letting Thresh be the outlier.

chipndip1Nov 29, 20181 votes

{quoted}

No I'm not. There's a big difference between the design philosophies of Leona and Thresh. Thresh has set a precedent for the support role that the rest of the position was then balanced and redesigned around. Leona has always played much like , but Thresh plays much like

This STILL has nothing to do with top lane.

He has little risk, but very high influence.

Thresh has more risk than you're giving credit for since he goes to the enemy more than they go to him.

He takes all of the strengths of both designs of and styles, while simultaneously reducing the risks associated with either.

No he doesn't. Blitz brings enemies ALL THE WAY TO HIM. Thresh's main boon is that his peel as a catcher is way better than most catchers since he just drags people away from situations.

This resulted in other supports having to be made more aggressive, after they were buffed in their old actual supportive designs, because those were considered unfun when taken to an equal degree of power as Thresh.

The real issue is that Riot doesn't know how to make a modern enchanter. They've made Taric's new kit, which is a warden, which is defensive. They made Rakan, which is a catcher. They made Pyke, which is...an assassin. They stated that they want Neeko to potentially play support, and she's a burst mage. We don't have much in the way of enchanters, and Riot has no idea on what to do with them at all.

So yeah, their new supports are gonna be either aggro poke or play makers because that's all they really know how to make.

deadlychuckNov 30, 20181 votes

Just as I pointed out that Thresh is a combination of Leona and Blitz, you use both of the examples of strength's his kit as afforded from the combination, while skipping over the weaknesses that each of those cover up.

Thresh has more risk than you're giving credit for since he goes to the enemy more than they go to him. No he doesn't. Blitz brings enemies ALL THE WAY TO HIM. Thresh's main boon is that his peel as a catcher is way better than most catchers since he just drags people away from situations.

Thresh isn't high risk, because he's given the decision to jump to the target and his CC is granted before he has to make that decision. Blitz and Leona require them to be next to the target (one or the other moving) in order to get their CC benefits. On top of that, he gets the pick potential like a blitzcrank with the engagement potential like a Leona. He then has a defensive mechanical tool in his lantern that neither that's substantially stronger than any of the additional CC or damage that leona and blitz have on him respectively. He takes the strengths of both to nullify the weaknesses inherent in each of the other kits.

The real issue is that Riot doesn't know how to make a modern enchanter.

And not quite. The issue isn't that riot doesn't know how to, it's that by nature of the current game design, there's no such thing as a "modern enchanter". A modern enchanter would necessarily be a champion version of item 3504

chipndip1Nov 28, 20181 votes

{quoted} and there's a pretty obvious argument that the existence of the excessively offensive designs of the kits of a support champion, particularly in the cases of thresh or rakan, is actually a more flawed design for a support as it fills a role that is antithetical to the support fantasy.

...this is a really bad analysis of the role and the champs in it.

deadlychuckNov 29, 20181 votes

That's not a analysis of the role as it exists; now nor is it one of the champions that occupy it.

So yeah, it's going to be bad at appearing as something that it isn't.

chipndip1Nov 29, 20181 votes

You stating that Thresh and Rakan are "too offensive for the support role" is a pretty shit analysis of those champs, and you saying that their jobs as supports is the antithesis of the support fantasy shows you have a very limited view on what supports should and shouldn't do in the game.

deadlychuckNov 30, 20181 votes

Call me crazy, but I think that supports should probably support in this game.

Thresh and Rakan don't support, they carry.

And frankly, I wouldn't care if they existed, if it was possible to have both exist at the same time, but it's simply not. The nature of the game will always bias one of the designs over the other and because the carry play style is appealing to more people than the supporting play style, there's incentive for riot to ensure that the loser of this is the supporting play style.

Like, if you want a good example of how this has changed, a champion who was released before thresh and reworked after thresh, as a "support" that really demonstrates how they shifted the definition of support to be more aligned with a carrying design like thresh. Karma 2 years later Thresh two months later Karma rework. I'm not saying that Karma was a response to thresh, but it's an indication of how their idea of a "support" changed between her original release and the rework around the same time as thresh. Thresh's success at appealing to a different support role audience is likely what made them keep the change in design long run.

Noor SakataNov 28, 20181 votes

What's with it if she is out dated ? Like Soraka , there is no problem with having a simple to play champion I like her this way though , small buffs are appreciated but , we don't need a rework , we saw how Akali was and how she is now.

KalikkoNov 28, 20181 votes

What I think is hilarious about your post. . ..

Sona has one of the highest win loss ratios in the game right now. Period.
She's been in one spot or another in the top 5 for the last several months.
Sona is the best scaling support, damage wise, period. She's border line busted. You can build whatever you want, whatever runes you want, and she still wins. Aery, comet, klepto, dark harvest. . .all of them are good, and all of them work. The ability to build things like ardent censor early, which buffs her damage AND her ally's damage is why she's been dominating. (Not to mention that both Klepto and Dark harvest AP damage bonuses procing) And its not just me saying this. The data and professionals also agree.
Sona is not the most mobile of supports, but she's still pretty damn mobile. The AoE speed buff she gives is fantastic, and the fact that she's giving a shield AND an ardent buff on EVERYONE in RANGE with 2 of her 3 main spells is so busted, they're nerfing it on the only champ that does something similar upcoming rework
Sona is an aggressive, high risk, high reward support. . . . the Draven of supports, if you will. You named off a list of supports with their crowd control abilities. Given she was specifically rebalanced 4 years ago exactly to THIS play-style, means adding crowd control to any of her base abilities would be like adding wings to a tiger.
Sona and her play-style might not be for you. This is okay. Not every champion is designed for the same type of player. Go play something else.

[sona-playing]

Poop JellyNov 28, 20181 votes

Strongly agreed with Number 2 and kinda disagreed with number 4 :)

I have played Sona where I would get bullied the hell outta laning phase (either due to my mistake, or they just are better at laning), and it took some hard time recovering from the disadvantage. As soon as Sona gets out of lane she provides a lot more utility whether to sustain a poke war or peel for important allies in teamfights. I personally have rarely found myself successful as the lane bully with Sona, at least since a few seasons ago.

KalikkoNov 28, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Poop Jelly,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=W7zH4d1F,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2018-11-28T01:33:10.425+0000)

Strongly agreed with Number 2 and kinda disagreed with number 4 :)

Read the link I posted, where Riot describes the WHY of the changes they made. She's designed to be a lane bully. I agree that a poor positioning on the sona's players part can mess up the entire lane phase for that bot lane. That's why she's high risk. Nor am I suggesting every match up is a good one. No champion can say that.

only zhuleNov 28, 20181 votes

{quoted}

What I think is hilarious about your post. . ..

Sona has one of the highest win loss ratios in the game right now. Period.
She's been in one spot or another in the top 5 for the last several months.

Sona is the best scaling support, damage wise, period. She's border line busted. You can build whatever you want, whatever runes you want, and she still wins. Aery, comet, klepto, dark harvest. . .all of them are good, and all of them work. The ability to build things like ardent censor early, which buffs her damage AND her ally's damage is why she's been dominating. (Not to mention that both Klepto and Dark harvest AP damage bonuses procing) And its not just me saying this. The data and professionals also agree.

Sona is not the most mobile of supports, but she's still pretty damn mobile. The AoE speed buff she gives is fantastic, and the fact that she's giving a shield AND an ardent buff on EVERYONE in RANGE with 2 of her 3 main spells is so busted, they're nerfing it on the only champ that does something similar upcoming rework

Sona is an aggressive, high risk, high reward support. . . . the Draven of supports, if you will. You named off a list of supports with their crowd control abilities. Given she was specifically rebalanced 4 years ago exactly to THIS play-style, means adding crowd control to any of her base abilities would be like adding wings to a tiger.

Sona and her play-style might not be for you. This is okay. Not every champion is designed for the same type of player. Go play something else.

[sona-playing]

I feel you have missed my point, though i have bitched about this alot so i forget if i made it clear in this post.

Sona has one of the lowest win-loss ratios in the game during the 0-20 min mark. This is the data i want focused on.
The issue is you NEED to build that stuff before she "gets good". Look at other supports, items help but their kits are still designed to do their thing. heals better with items, but she can still heal pretty decently by pumping points into the skill.
Sona is able to really abuse a lot of items and that's great. Problem is that when you balance a champion around how they can abuse an item, they first have to GET the item. can really abuse and that item line, but if he does trash damage until he gets it then you have an issue where he simply doesn't work right for a chunk of the game. Let's say i rush , i'm still probably looking at about 4000 gold spent on items before i get to "abuse" this thing. 4000 gold takes quite a while to get on a support if you aren't getting kills/assists.
Sona is a an aggressive high risk, low-ish reward champion for the early game and that is the problem. 40-100 damage with an eight second cooldown (100-160 on a 7.2 if you account for her ult passive between lvl 6-9) is really bad for a champion that needs to be constantly aggressive.

Sona has a great mid and late game, I really enjoy the idea of a hyper carry support. I just wish her early game wasn't such a drawn out pain to crawl through.

KalikkoNov 28, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=only zhule,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=W7zH4d1F,comment-id=00030001,timestamp=2018-11-28T02:05:21.290+0000)

Sona has one of the lowest win-loss ratios in the game during the 0-20 min mark. This is the data i want focused on.

She's designed to be an AoE enchanter support. Janna, another enchanter support, has similar stats. So does Lulu, ect. Most enchanter supports fall into this. AoE buffs obviously get better in an AoE enviroment. Aka team fights.

I find it funny you ignore her as the HIGHEST WIN RATIO CHAMP IN THE ENTIRE GAME RIGHT NOW because she is a SCALING CHAMPION. That's like saying Karthus or Veigar are bad because they need items/time to scale. Zero logic.

The issue is you NEED to build that stuff before she "gets good". Look at other supports, items help but their kits are still designed to do their thing. heals better with items, but she can still heal pretty decently by pumping points into the skill.

Yes, I agree. She's a scaling champion. Thats what they do. They scale. Mid lane Zilean has been at the top of win/loss for mid all season long. Guess what. He's a scaling champion. His pre-20 minute w/l is bad. Thats what they do.

Champions are early designed for early, mid or late scaling. A mix of them is key to part of a good team composition. I guess you've never seen a Kayle go 0-6-0 in lane phase, only to destroy your entire team at 25 minutes.

Sona is able to really abuse a lot of items and that's great. Problem is that when you balance a champion around how they can abuse an item, they first have to GET the item. can really abuse and that item line, but if he does trash damage until he gets it then you have an issue where he simply doesn't work right for a chunk of the game. Let's say i rush , i'm still probably looking at about 4000 gold spent on items before i get to "abuse" this thing. 4000 gold takes quite a while to get on a support if you aren't getting kills/assists.

See my first two points. Saying a champion is bad because they scale late vs mid or early isn't an argument.. . its a lack of understanding of this game.

Sona is a an aggressive high risk, low-ish reward champion for the early game and that is the problem. 40-100 damage with an eight second cooldown (100-160 on a 7.2 if you account for her ult passive between lvl 6-9) is really bad for a champion that needs to be constantly aggressive. Sona has a great mid and late game, I really enjoy the idea of a hyper carry support. I just wish her early game wasn't such a drawn out pain to crawl through.

She's not a hyper carry support. She's an enchanter support. THIS seems to be the point you are missing and can't seem to wrap your brain around.

Her damage isn't supposed to be the same as brands. . . .she's NOT a carry support. Her value lies in buffs and debuffs. . . healing, slowing, armor pen, speed up.. . . ..

I know what your problem is. You think sona should be an early game hyper carry.

Sorry, that's not what she is. Its so far off the mark, its no wonder you're confused.

only zhuleNov 28, 20181 votes

{quoted}

She's designed to be an AoE enchanter support. Janna, another enchanter support, has similar stats. So does Lulu, ect. Most enchanter supports fall into this. AoE buffs obviously get better in an AoE enviroment. Aka team fights.

I find it funny you ignore her as the HIGHEST WIN RATIO CHAMP IN THE ENTIRE GAME RIGHT NOW because she is a SCALING CHAMPION. That's like saying Karthus or Veigar are bad because they need items/time to scale. Zero logic.

Yes, I agree. She's a scaling champion. Thats what they do. They scale. Mid lane Zilean has been at the top of win/loss for mid all season long. Guess what. He's a scaling champion. His pre-20 minute w/l is bad. Thats what they do.

Champions are early designed for early, mid or late scaling. A mix of them is key to part of a good team composition. I guess you've never seen a Kayle go 0-6-0 in lane phase, only to destroy your entire team at 25 minutes.

See my first two points. Saying a champion is bad because they scale late vs mid or early isn't an argument.. . its a lack of understanding of this game. Sona has a great mid and late game, I really enjoy the idea of a hyper carry support. I just wish her early game wasn't such a drawn out pain to crawl through.

She's not a hyper carry support. She's an enchanter support. THIS seems to be the point you are missing and can't seem to wrap your brain around.

Her damage isn't supposed to be the same as brands. . . .she's NOT a carry support. Her value lies in buffs and debuffs. . . healing, slowing, armor pen, speed up.. . . ..

I know what your problem is. You think sona should be an early game hyper carry.

Sorry, that's not what she is. Its so far off the mark, its no wonder you're confused.

So we clearly disagree on Sona. But let me pose this differently. What is Sona suppose to do during lane phase? does she do that job well? If no, then at what point does she start doing her job well?

My issue remains that she doesn't really do much of anything during the lane phase against the vast majority of champions. If she is suppose to be a enhancer support through the entire game, then she needs to have actual enhancer abilities that you can use through out the entire game, not just post 25 mins.

Also i'm not arguing that she needs level of damage output, i'm arguing that i really shouldn't be losing a trade with Janna or Teemo . I'm arguing that a champion who's kit is based around casting a lot of low impact spells, instead of 1-2 big ones, should be able to cast a lot of spells without needing 40%+ CDR to keep pace.

The last big change they made to her was to add the passive to her ultimate. They did this specifically because they noted that she wasn't able to keep up given that her abilities are rather weak individually. I'm simply suggesting maybe take the passive away and just reduce her base cooldowns by 25% (at least on her Q and W). She keeps the high risk high reward aspect of her kit, gains the means to maintain pressure / Keep her teammate alive during lane phase, and no longer has a late game where she is running around with a possible 67% CDR.

Or if you want her to be more of an enhancer type character maybe give her some half decent freaking enhancement abilities. Split the difference between her old version and this new one. Give her the ability to give actual buffs but have them only last for like 4 seconds if you are within a fairly close range to her. Maybe Q gives flat bonus AD/AP, or lethality while the aura is active. You know something that might actually help your ally win the lane, instead of a tiny boost of bonus damage that doesn't work on buildings but can still be wasted on a minion.

KalikkoNov 28, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=only zhule,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=W7zH4d1F,comment-id=0003000100000000,timestamp=2018-11-28T04:42:46.007+0000)

So we clearly disagree on Sona. But let me pose this differently. What is Sona suppose to do during lane phase? does she do that job well? If no, then at what point does she start doing her job well?

My issue remains that she doesn't really do much of anything during the lane phase against the vast majority of champions. If she is suppose to be a enhancer support through the entire game, then she needs to have actual enhancer abilities that you can use through out the entire game, not just post 25 mins.

Sona doesn't buff her laner until 25 minutes? Have you ever read her spells?

Q- Melody: Sona gains an aura for 3 seconds. Allied champions that enter the aura will gain additional magic damage on their next attack within 5 seconds.

W- Melody: Sona gains an aura for 3 seconds. Allied champions that enter the aura will gain shield for 1.5 seconds.

E- Melody: Sona gains an aura for 3 seconds. Allied champions that enter the aura gain Movement Speed for 3 seconds.

In addition to the poke, heal, and speed up those same abilities also give.

Also, its not 'we' that disagree on Sona.

Its YOU that disagree with the people who made Sona and the game.

Champion Insights Sona, designed by Fearless

So, let’s get to the why part!

Essentially, we took Sona to the update board because we saw a unique opportunity to make her more rewarding and more fun. She wasn’t terribly strong or weak, but her kit clearly lacked high moments and overall satisfaction. We wanted to keep her theme as it was and retain her awesome Crescendo while giving her basic abilities a more visible and tangible impact. Oh, and if we could sneak in some fancy texture updates in the process (and we could!), then all the better.

So what’s changed? Well, Sona’s gameplay now revolves more around moments of power. Instead of hanging back and winning a war of attrition during laning, Sona’s now got the kit to power up her allies and save their lives when a fight turns against them. Auras are smaller and more visible now, so getting the most of them requires great positional awareness for Sona and coordination with her allies. This allows us to reward great play with much more impact for each of her songs. You’ll be able to make plays as Sona, earn your team kills and save lives with clutch ability casts and smart positioning. At the same time, the enemy team has larger windows to fight back in thanks to her longer cooldowns, adding in clarity and counterplay to Sona’s kit. We can't wait to see what players can do with her update.

only zhuleNov 28, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Sona doesn't buff her laner until 25 minutes? Have you ever read her spells?

Q- Melody: Sona gains an aura for 3 seconds. Allied champions that enter the aura will gain additional magic damage on their next attack within 5 seconds.

W- Melody: Sona gains an aura for 3 seconds. Allied champions that enter the aura will gain shield for 1.5 seconds.

E- Melody: Sona gains an aura for 3 seconds. Allied champions that enter the aura gain Movement Speed for 3 seconds.

In addition to the poke, heal, and speed up those same abilities also give.

Also, its not 'we' that disagree on Sona.

Its YOU that disagree with the people who made Sona and the game. Sona, designed by Fearless

So, let’s get to the why part!

Essentially, we took Sona to the update board because we saw a unique opportunity to make her more rewarding and more fun. She wasn’t terribly strong or weak, but her kit clearly lacked high moments and overall satisfaction. We wanted to keep her theme as it was and retain her awesome Crescendo while giving her basic abilities a more visible and tangible impact. Oh, and if we could sneak in some fancy texture updates in the process (and we could!), then all the better.

So what’s changed? Well, Sona’s gameplay now revolves more around moments of power. Instead of hanging back and winning a war of attrition during laning, Sona’s now got the kit to power up her allies and save their lives when a fight turns against them. Auras are smaller and more visible now, so getting the most of them requires great positional awareness for Sona and coordination with her allies. This allows us to reward great play with much more impact for each of her songs. You’ll be able to make plays as Sona, earn your team kills and save lives with clutch ability casts and smart positioning. At the same time, the enemy team has larger windows to fight back in thanks to her longer cooldowns, adding in clarity and counterplay to Sona’s kit. We can't wait to see what players can do with her update.

Q- Melody: 10-30 magic damage on allies next auto attack, you can't use against turrets and it can be used up against a basic minion. This is a BAD buff. Q passively you waste most of the power of the ability to give an ally a very underwhelming damage buff. Let's look at Lulu or Nami or Janna all three of these give an enhancement that actually helps your ally win a fight and for two of them the freaking buff doesn't fall off hit they auto attack a minion.

W- Melody: This is not a buff, it can trigger buffs from items but it is not in and of itself a buff.

E- Melody: This one just never seems to work right for me. Like honestly i'll pop it and tag an ally, we still can't seem to out pace the enemy who is 20-50 MS slower then us.

In the end i could argue with you all day and night (and part of me wants to because i'm convinced you are wrong). Regardless i think Sona needs a better early game. It doesn't have to start at level one and just go up from their, but i would like a champion who isn't defined by getting to level 11 and abusing your 58/59% CDR.

KalikkoNov 28, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=only zhule,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=W7zH4d1F,comment-id=000300010000000000000000,timestamp=2018-11-28T06:19:48.807+0000)

In the end i could argue with you all day and night (and part of me wants to because i'm convinced you are wrong). Regardless i think Sona needs a better early game. It doesn't have to start at level one and just go up from their, but i would like a champion who isn't defined by getting to level 11 and abusing your 58/59% CDR.

Sona is a scaling enchanter support.

No amount of you saying otherwise is going to change this.

No amount of you belittling things you obviously don't understand will change this.

No amount of you saying otherwise will change what the developers of Sona, RIOT and Rioter Fearless, says she is.

You can't understand how healing is a buff. . your words. . .I can't help you anymore. You're being belligerently ignorant.

Good day sir.

only zhuleNov 28, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Sona is a scaling enchanter support.

No amount of you saying otherwise is going to change this.

No amount of you belittling things you obviously don't understand will change this.

No amount of you saying otherwise will change what the developers of Sona, RIOT and Rioter Fearless, says she is.

You can't understand how healing is a buff. . your words. . .I can't help you anymore. You're being belligerently ignorant.

Good day sir.

A scaling champion can scale well before level 11. This is a thing many other scaling champions do.

Riot changed Sona 4+ years ago, are you going to look me in the eye and honestly say that the game hasn't shifted in that time frame? That it is not possible that what was fair and balanced 4+ years ago might not be so today?

Healing is not a buff. Janna's ultimate is not a buff for her team, Taric has buffing but it sure isn't his freaking heal. No one is going to argue that item 1059 buff is it's healing instead of its bonus damage. honestly the only heal i would say is a buff is Nami because it literally also gives you a movement speed boost WHICH IS A BUFF.

You also keep dodging the point that Sona's kit is defined by it's ability (and need) to land a lot of spells, where many other kits just need to land 1 or 2.

chipndip1Nov 28, 20181 votes

Yeah but don't change it because everyone will bitch about it.

I have 2.5 million mastery on Sona. I'd have loved a rework for her, but now I just don't care. The community hates good reworks, and Riot hates working on Enchanters, so I gave up. Fuck it.

Warlord RhinarkNov 29, 20181 votes

To be honest, I'd say the newer champions are more flawed than the old ones.

only zhuleNov 29, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Warlord Rhinark,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=W7zH4d1F,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2018-11-29T07:36:31.022+0000)

To be honest, I'd say the newer champions are more flawed than the old ones.

...it's an odd situation really. If "every" character made after X point is 'flawed', if that number is higher then characters made before that point. do you judge the pool by age or number?

Like old school Sona and Soraka were toxic as fuck for the game. But they were toxic in a way that is TOTALLY different then say 'new' champions like Akali / Irelia / or even older champions like Teemo .

Warlord RhinarkNov 29, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=only zhule,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=W7zH4d1F,comment-id=00060000,timestamp=2018-11-29T10:20:07.406+0000)

...it's an odd situation really. If "every" character made after X point is 'flawed', if that number is higher then characters made before that point. do you judge the pool by age or number?

Age is unfair to judge by, given that every champion was a "new release" at some point.

So number I guess?

Every champion released after the 100 mark (the release of Jayce) is an unnecessary addition to the game in my opinion.

They also, coincidentally some might say, have been the result of the biggest balance problems.

Like old school and were toxic as fuck for the game. But they were toxic in a way that is TOTALLY different then say 'new' champions like / / or even older champions like .

The problem happens when outdated champions clash with newer releases.

Riot should put a hold on new champion releases and focus their resources on getting every outdated champion up to date.