not every single assassin-type champion but I think you get the point, give any kind of lead to any of these champions and you will find yourself dead in under a second with almost 0 counterplay.
Yet Zed is apparently too easy and too OP because he actually provides 10x the counterplay most assassin type champions currently have.
OhthePiplup13 votesLooks at summoner name
Ah.
Desiderium7 votes[{quoted}](name=Such is Fate,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=W3VEtLqd,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-08-16T07:31:40.467+0000)
Looks at summoner name
Ah.
-Looks at summoner name-
-Looks at summoner icon-
SwapShadows3 votes[{quoted}](name=Such is Fate,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=W3VEtLqd,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-08-16T07:31:40.467+0000)
Looks at summoner name
Ah.
It's still a fact, most healthiest assassin in the game and it's proven by how every other assassin functions.
ApexInTheCircle8 votesIt's still a fact, most healthiest assassin in the game and it's proven by how every other assassin functions.
Pros
High damage
Decent poke in lane
Nice ultimate that gives stealth
Large amount of AoE
A gap closer
~Cons~
High risk, if he botches an assassination attempt he's dead.
His poke costs a nice chunk of mana
Has mana
Has to either farm with Rake wasting mana or lh minions in melee range.
Pros
High damage
Retardedly good poke in lane
Ultimate That can close the gap and has the ability to escape if he botches an assassination
Manaless
Can jump between shadows to avoid ganks
Has extremely good wave clear
Last hit potential is the best in game.
Is borderline ungankable
Gets bonus % ad from skills
~Cons~
Has trouble with Zhonyas and QSS
No CC
Kind of a con -Situational melee
You forgot some:
pros:
ApexInTheCircle5 votes[{quoted}](name=Indominus Blade,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=W3VEtLqd,comment-id=0000000100000001,timestamp=2015-08-16T07:50:27.497+0000)
You forgot some:
- Easy to land poke (Zed poke is harder to land)
- Better team fighting (Zed team fight is trash)
- Faster damage (Zed damage is slower).
Still has more downsides when compared to Zed.
Indominus Blade1 votesNope, Talon is better than Zed, don't even try to debate with me.I've mained 
for years non-stop and am high elo diamond.
MLDzXnRRR3 votes[{quoted}](name=Indominus Blade,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=W3VEtLqd,comment-id=000000010000000100000000,timestamp=2015-08-16T07:54:19.329+0000)
Nope, Talon is better than Zed, don't even try to debate with me, I've mained
Talon can't kill tanks. Zed kills everything that moves on the map. Talon kills towers slower. Talon gets screwed by pink wards. Talon gets screwed by Warmog - he doesn't get BORK and the bonus hp gives you enough hp to survive the burst combo (unless he is overfed). Talon has shitty laning.
HaIlMonitor1 votesTalon can't kill tanks. Zed kills everything that moves on the map. Talon kills towers slower. Talon gets screwed by pink wards. Talon gets screwed by Warmog - he doesn't get BORK and the bonus hp gives you enough hp to survive the burst combo (unless he is overfed). Talon has shitty laning.
Are you sure Talon takes towers slower? I mean I will agree that zed is better in pretty much every way but talon blows up towers pretty fast because his Q bonus damage.
Indominus Blade1 votesTalon can't kill tanks. Zed kills everything that moves on the map. Talon kills towers slower. Talon gets screwed by pink wards. Talon gets screwed by Warmog - he doesn't get BORK and the bonus hp gives you enough hp to survive the burst combo (unless he is overfed). Talon has shitty laning.
Yes he can, Zed might be slightly better at killing tanks, but both of them can, but that doesn't even matter, since their job is to assassinate carries first. Talon is better than Zed. Talon doesn't have shitty laning. Talon kills turrets faster than Zed. You are clueless, I play both of them at high elo diamond.
Anthony06031 votesJust saying I hope you get hit by a bus. "yes he can" "Talon is" "Talon doesnt" "Talon kills" "You are" "I play" wtf you want someone to refute your ideas. If you truly believe that you are right, simply because you are diamond, then there's no reason for anyone to refute anything. So literally a challenger player could come in here and say that neither one is better and you should just play league in your underwear. Boom problem solved. As long as he tells me he's challenger, he must be strong, intelligent, and competent. He also must know the secrets to the universe, he has transcended humanity, and reached something much greater.......
Soooo, if all you wanna do is tell people your rating and that you are right, find a wall or another inanimate object, I'm sure they won't argue with your lack of logic.
ApexInTheCircle2 votes[{quoted}](name=Indominus Blade,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=W3VEtLqd,comment-id=000000010000000100000000,timestamp=2015-08-16T07:54:19.329+0000)
Nope, Talon is better than Zed, don't even try to debate with me, I've mained
So that's it then? Don't debate with me because I say so? Zed was the first assassin I played until I started experimenting with Diana and Talon. Talon's kit is super lackluster when compared with Zed's, Talon does not have the safety net that Zed has and further more is outdamaged by Zed late game due to zed's passive that increases his damage by a fairly good %.
How many times have you seen a Talon QQ thread when compared to a Zed QQ thread? Probably a good deal less if any at all. Zed by nature is broken and goes against Riot's own design philosophy of "It has to be fun to play against and fun to play as" talon can be fun to play against if you're poking him out of lane with someone like 
. Talon can be punished for attempting to farm or poke. Zed however is nonpunishable by design.
Zed was not broken on release or anytime around his release. He was made op by the constant nerfs to mid champions especially the mana nerfs. And when it came time to actually nerf Zed he got a slap on the wrist with a minor attack speed hit. So don't try to sit there and say that Talon is better when he's clearly not.
SwapShadows1 votesSo that's it then? Don't debate with me because I say so? Zed was the first assassin I played until I started experimenting with Diana and Talon. Talon's kit is super lackluster when compared with Zed's, Talon does not have the safety net that Zed has and further more is outdamaged by Zed late game due to zed's passive that increases his damage by a fairly good %.
How many times have you seen a Talon QQ thread when compared to a Zed QQ thread? Probably a good deal less if any at all. Zed by nature is broken and goes against Riot's own design philosophy of "It has to be fun to play against and fun to play as" talon can be fun to play against if you're poking him out of lane with someone like
Zed was not broken on release or anytime around his release. He was made op by the constant nerfs to mid champions especially the mana nerfs. And when it came time to actually nerf Zed he got a slap on the wrist with a minor attack speed hit. So don't try to sit there and say that Talon is better when he's clearly not.
Zed is melee, ranged mages such as azir and vel koz actually have an easy time poking zed because if zed uses his Q to farm then he has nothing to retaliate with.
Indominus Blade1 votes[deleted]
ApexInTheCircle4 votes[{quoted}](name=Indominus Blade,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=W3VEtLqd,comment-id=000000010000000100000003,timestamp=2015-08-16T07:57:00.644+0000)
Typical boards, they downvote a high elo diamond player who mains Zed and Talon and knows wtf he is talking about, and upvote a clueless silver 3 who doesn't play either: http://na.op.gg/summoner/userName=ApexlnTheCircle
Epic fail.
Btw I'll have you know I didn't downvote you, but if you want to continue being a dick and bringing personal attacks into this by all means child go ahead. And just because I haven't played any of them in the past 10 games doesn't mean I don't play them at all. but I guess asking you to use your brain under any circumstances is fruitless.
Indominus Blade1 votesBtw I'll have you know I didn't downvote you, but if you want to continue being a dick and bringing personal attacks into this by all means child go ahead. And just because I haven't played any of them in the past 10 games doesn't mean I don't play them at all. but I guess asking you to use your brain under any circumstances is fruitless.
Not being a dick, I am being realistic. This is reality:
When I say Talon is better than Zed, my statement has more value than yours, because it comes with experience and data and mastery over these champions, at least a lot more relative to what you have.
ApexInTheCircle2 votes[{quoted}](name=Indominus Blade,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=W3VEtLqd,comment-id=00000001000000010000000300000000,timestamp=2015-08-16T08:33:23.201+0000)
Not being a dick, I am being realistic. This is reality:
- You don't play Talon and Zed in ranked, I DO.
- You don't play Talon and Zed as your main champs, I DO.
- You are silver 3, I am high elo diamond.
- You don't know what you are talking about when it comes to Talon and Zed, I DO.
When I say Talon is better than Zed, my statement has more value than yours, because it comes with experience and data and mastery over these champions, at least a lot more relative to what you have.
Wow that superiority complex though. For one I don't ranked because I find it droll since it breeds the exact attitude you have. secondly just because someone doesn't play ranked doesn't mean they don't have a main. Talon is my 2nd highest played champion, followed in first closely by Anivia. I've mained Talon since season 3 when I first picked him up as a curiosity. And lastly your attitude leaves alot to be desired, the fact of the matter still stands Zed's lane phase does not mimic that of the rest of the assassin champion pool. His ability to completely play it safe and stay in lane as long as he wants is a problem and has been a problem rather you like it or not.
Indominus Blade1 votesWow that superiority complex though. For one I don't ranked because I find it droll since it breeds the exact attitude you have. secondly just because someone doesn't play ranked doesn't mean they don't have a main. Talon is my 2nd highest played champion, followed in first closely by Anivia. I've mained Talon since season 3 when I first picked him up as a curiosity. And lastly your attitude leaves alot to be desired, the fact of the matter still stands Zed's lane phase does not mimic that of the rest of the assassin champion pool. His ability to completely play it safe and stay in lane as long as he wants is a problem and has been a problem rather you like it or not.
You don't like competitive attitude and competition because you know you get rekt by players better than you. There is no superiority complex, it is a fact that I am better than you at this game. You play Talon since season 3 and you still don't know what you are talking about, lol. I don't care what you have to say about Zed and his laning phase, I have a problem with nonsense, you said Zed is better than Talon and that is not true, at the moment, Talon is the stronger Assassin. Want do a 1v1? I'll play Talon and you play Zed, show me how OP Zed is :^)
ApexInTheCircle1 votes[{quoted}](name=Indominus Blade,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=W3VEtLqd,comment-id=0000000100000001000000030000000000010000,timestamp=2015-08-16T09:03:41.146+0000)
You don't like competitive attitude and competition because you know you get rekt by players better than you. There is no superiority complex, it is a fact that I am better than you at this game. You play Talon since season 3 and you still don't know what you are talking about, lol. I don't care what you have to say about Zed and his laning phase, I have a problem with nonsense, you said Zed is better than Talon and that is not true, at the moment, Talon is the stronger Assassin. Want do a 1v1? I'll play Talon and you play Zed, show me how OP Zed is :^)
Having a competitive attitude and being a total dick is 2 completely different things. And I don't play ranked for the reason I stated, plus it's a huge waste of time IMO because you'll never be in a professional team nor will you make money int he e-sports scene. the only thing ranked play does is breed this piss-poor Holier-than-thou attitude that you obviously seem to possess. And you kept saying you're high diamond elo but your lolking says you're plat-1. Sounds to me like you need to either relearn your colors or stop having delusions of grandeur.
Indominus Blade1 votesHaving a competitive attitude and being a total dick is 2 completely different things. And I don't play ranked for the reason I stated, plus it's a huge waste of time IMO because you'll never be in a professional team nor will you make money int he e-sports scene. the only thing ranked play does is breed this piss-poor Holier-than-thou attitude that you obviously seem to possess. And you kept saying you're high diamond elo but your lolking says you're plat-1. Sounds to me like you need to either relearn your colors or stop having delusions of grandeur.
Anthony06031 votesFeeds like shit, claims to be a smurf trying to move down. Hey i've actually done that one before. I was really really drunk, and my excuse for playing so bad, was that I was a smurf trying to lose rating. Which shows just how clueless you are on common sense. That's not a smurf, you just like to jack your dick and have people clap for you. When truth is, no one actually gives a shit. Most people with this common sense that you claim to have (for some reason, not sure where you get the idea you have any effectiveness whatsoever in this field) can see right through your transparent bull shit.
Carniverous1 votes[{quoted}](name=Indominus Blade,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=W3VEtLqd,comment-id=0000000100000001000000030000000000010000,timestamp=2015-08-16T09:03:41.146+0000)
Want do a 1v1?
I like learning experiences, I'd take you up on that, but I didn't enjoy playing either of them. x3
Indominus Blade1 votesI like learning experiences, I'd take you up on that, but I didn't enjoy playing either of them. x3
I didn't pay attention to server types, I can't do 1v1 with NA players unless they have EUW accounts. Shame.
Carniverous1 votesAhh true. I was even willing to play for skins.
I don't think I'd want to farm up to 30 so I could get the runes/masteries I'd want. Oh well.
Carniverous2 votes[{quoted}](name=Indominus Blade,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=W3VEtLqd,comment-id=00000001000000010000000300000000,timestamp=2015-08-16T08:33:23.201+0000)
Not being a dick, I am being realistic. This is reality:
- You don't play Talon and Zed in ranked, I DO.
- You don't play Talon and Zed as your main champs, I DO.
- You are silver 3, I am high elo diamond.
- You don't know what you are talking about when it comes to Talon and Zed, I DO.
When I say Talon is better than Zed, my statement has more value than yours, because it comes with experience and data and mastery over these champions, at least a lot more relative to what you have.
Let me help you not sound like a dick with cleaning up this post. First I'll say, the last half of your last paragraph actually is a good point. More experience means more weight.
It's called, "I and You Statements" Things sound totally different once someone changes from saying "You sound like a prick" to "I dislike the way you've been talking to me."
Two totally different things.
When I say Talon is better than Zed, my statement has more value than yours, because it comes with experience and data and mastery over these champions, at least a lot more relative to what you have.
Points 1 and 2 are basically the same thing, and unnecessary. You don't need to say it more than once, and then say it better at the end.
Side note, were you Diamond in S3?
Anthony06031 votesWELLL, since we are all about bringing other people down to make our own points. I guess this is your supposed "non fallacious" way of arguing. Your recent games of 1/7/3 Talon 8/19/3 Talon 3/10/1 Talon 3/6/3 Talon 7/14/6 Talon And here's one looks like you got carried. 10/10/9 Talon hey you almost went positive. Good thing we have a Talon master here to teach us what kind of balancing these champions need. Thanks for your time, experience, and expertise. Now proceed to kill yourself and rid us of your lack of common sense and overly large ego to make that lack of common sense so clear to all those around you.
Carniverous2 votesThe dude refuses to be reasoned with. There's not much getting though to him.
Indominus Blade1 votesThe dude refuses to be reasoned with. There's not much getting though to him.
Reason? If you could reason you wouldn't disagree with somebody who knows what he is talking about while you can't refute his statement. You don't go to a doctor and tell him how to do his job or wether he is right or wrong, when you are clueless about his field.
You two are clueless when it comes to Zed and Talon. You don't understand or play these champions at the level that I do, I stated why Talon is better, while you are spamming "hurr durr why are you so mean :'("
So don't talk about reason, when you lack basic logic and reasoning capabilities.
Carniverous2 votesIf you'd like to personally debate why Talon is better to me, I will talk to you. But I have not said Hurr Durr, and you know it.
I'll accept an equal discussion you. But you use your in game social status to say I am incompetent. Come on, we don't know each other.
Make me understand, I have tried, only tried each character. I will not try to say I play them at your level. I understand their basics. I will sit back and let you tell me what ever helps make your point. Just make it personal.
So here are my reasoning capabilities. I'll not insult you, I'll accept your input and ask questions when I don't understand. And be willing to humble myself to someone with more experience. I'll show more self control.
If you're willing to have a discussion with me, I am for it. Other wise, I'm not sure if I can put my hand out twice.
Indominus Blade1 votesScroll up, read the three points I stated, refute them. Stop wasting time with posts like this one.
Carniverous1 votesSaid I would, and I did.
I can agree Talon's poke is easier to get off, Higher missile speed, Wider area. Zed lacks in those two.
So question, is easier better than Safer? I know Zed can farm with his Q, and also poke. And do so from a shadow being even safer. Also not having to worry about mana. Something I see is Talon has less range. A lot of the time when talon tires to poke me, he ends up suffering more, because he is in more danger getting closer.
So, how will you elaborate?
Indominus Blade2 votesCompetent Talon and Zed players farm with auto attacks and save their abilities for possible poke. As for safety, what does safety have to do with who is the better Assassin? If safety is what defines an Assassin, then Xerath and Varus are amazing Assassins. No, what matters is Assassination potential. Talon has faster damage, more reliable damage and better AoE damage. Zed is weaker in all those 3 things, but he has more safety than Talon. Is that safety that effective? It used to be pretty good, but they nerfed his W speed and put a 1 sec delay on R swap, the current "safety" Zed has, doesn't matter much. I'd rather get 1-2 kills when I engage with Talon and actually Assassinate my kill target and add some AoE damage to other targets and let my team clean up, even if I die in the process, instead of going in with Zed, failing to assassinate anything and swapping out with R saying "well atleast I got away!". Now, both champions can Assassinate effectively when FED, but in normal circumstances, Talon has stronger Assassination potential.
Zed was the overal stronger champion, because he had more versatility than Talon. His previous safety, before the W speed and R swap delay nerfs, was good and paired with his splitpushing ability before they nerfed his Attack Speed, made him stronger. But now? He can't team fight and he can't splitpush effectively.
Talon can team fight better, assassinate better and his splitpushing is some what equal to that of zed (better damage and faster turret destroying than zed, but can't escape like Zed if collapsed on).
If they give back Zed his attack speed and his instant R swap, I will agree that Zed is the stronger champion and that his less effective Assassination potential is outshined by the other bonuses he has. But that is not the case currently, so Talon is the better Assassin.
Carniverous1 votesAlright, this is acceptable. Thank you.
As to what I meant by safety. An assassin that can live after killing the first target, gets the chance of killing again. And again. Your points about his nerfs bring into light a shift of power and that puts Talon in ahead. Since it's harder for Zed to instantly get out clean, it compromises how well he can be played.
Now I can say, yeah. Talon is the better pick over all.
On another matter, do you really believe me to be unreasonableness still? Or incapable of playing this game?
Indominus Blade1 votesYou are naming the best case scenario for Zed: Ult in, kill a target, ult out, come back in after 3 sec (when your energy is back up), W in, E Q, AA etc and get 1-2 more kills.
Do you know what the best case scenario for Talon is? You ult in, do your entire combo in 1-2 sec on a group of enemies, get 3 kills instantly. This makes Talon also better at wombo combo'ing with other champs.
When I say you can't play the game, I should clarify that you can't play the game effectively, bronze, silver and gold players don't play the game effectively, platinum and diamond players do (platinum to a lesser degree). Master and Challenger players play the game extremely effectively, with significantly less mistakes than platinum and diamond players. But non of them plays the game professionally. Only pro-players play the game professionally. It is all relative to what the standard is.
So, yes, you can play the game, anyone who installs League can "play the game".
Anthony06031 votesHAHAHAHAH i love this because you literally just came full circle to the opinions you were fighting so hard against. scroll up and see how everything you say in this post was said by the other guy you were talking to. These points back then were called "hurr durr" so. "hurr durr" yourself to retardation. Holy shit you are dumb. Talon has a better teamfight, zed is more about getting picks. Next you are gonna start talking about shacos teamfight. oh wait, he's more of a split pusher, and small skirmish picks assassin. Oh wait... holy crap, so different champions serve different purposes? Not every champion is the exact same??? Wait, what is this black magic?
Anthony06031 votesIf you read their comments, they literally said that talon has more teamfight prescence then zed. If you are calling that spamming and crying "dont be mean" then again sir, you are fucking retarded. They replied with logical answers to your statements. Literally, yes talon has a weaker laning phase in most cases, he is also more of a risky pick, but, as stated by these people you claim to have no reasoning skills. Talon has a much better teamfight then zed, Talons main source of assassination burst cannot be shut down by petty items like zhonyas or qss. They both have their strengths and both have their weaknesses. No one here is completely arguing with you, they are simply adding more information to the table. if you are so opposed to more information to make a more informative conclusion then gtfo of all types of constructive conversation. You definitely don't belong with people who ACTUALLY use logic and reasoning. Rather then just claiming "I'm right, and anyone who doesnt agree with me is anti-logical" its some sort of fucked up god complex. Gtfo and go back the hole you came from. No one actually gives a shit what you have to say.
Carniverous2 votesThe reason is your attitude, and lack of good points. You state opinions only. Oh, you are also very condescending.
I'm sure you're very skilled. But your balls aren't that big, so quit inflating your Eggo.
It's not typical, it just happens to you.
Indominus Blade1 votes[deleted]
ApexInTheCircle3 votes[{quoted}](name=Indominus Blade,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=W3VEtLqd,comment-id=00000001000000010000000300010000,timestamp=2015-08-16T09:30:45.506+0000)
And here I thought your ego was only attached to this game. Sounds to me like you're just a terrible person with minimal friends and some superiority complex because "MA DIAMOND ELO LOL LOOK AT MA E-PEEN TIS BIGGER THAN YOURS HERPA A DUR" You may be a good player but you're a shitty person. To bad for you, that being plat 1 doesn't net you shit in the real world bud.
Have fun listening to nickel-back and kicking puppies mister plat 1 super star.
Indominus Blade1 votesAnd here I thought your ego was only attached to this game. Sounds to me like you're just a terrible person with minimal friends and some superiority complex because "MA DIAMOND ELO LOL LOOK AT MA E-PEEN TIS BIGGER THAN YOURS HERPA A DUR" You may be a good player but you're a shitty person. To bad for you, that being plat 1 doesn't net you shit in the real world bud.
Have fun listening to nickel-back and kicking puppies mister plat 1 super star.
What does real life have to do with League of Legends? You are on a boards for League of Legends, not real life. I don't care about what fools think of me, I only befriend the strong, intelligent and competent, the weak disgust me.
Anthony06031 votes"What does real life have to do with league of legends?" Then goes on to say "I only befriend the strong, intelligent, and competent". So logically lets get this straight, how can you measure strength, intelligence, or competence simply by looking at someones rating? or does league of legends and life actually coincide? Idk, but one thing is for sure, the weak disgust me as well. And I have spent literally the past 30 minutes replying to your sad comments because of how disgusted your weakness and incompetence has made me.
Carniverous1 votesHmmm..... I don't comprehend English.... What language have I been speaking?
Well, you are speaking in opinions again. You believe I don't under stand the game. But there is no proof. You think I can't play, but you have no evidence? And if you say silver 2, as you strong point. What dose that actually mean?
You aren't making good points, you sound like... Well, I am not sure at this point. It's childish.
Also, Rolf is not English. I live in "Murica" which butchered English and I knwo better.
Again, condescending. I thought I pointed this out. Tisk Tisk.
Indominus Blade1 votesAre you going to refute my statement and arguments regarding why Talon is better than Zed or are you going to keep spamming nonsense? I don't care about your opinion about me, you are not my equal. I told you, I only befriend and care about the opinions of the strong, intelligent and competent. Your rank reflects that you are neither when it comes to this game.
Indominus Blade1 votes[{quoted}](name=Indominus Blade,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=W3VEtLqd,comment-id=0000000100000001000000030001000000010000,timestamp=2015-08-16T09:49:59.528+0000)
Are you going to refute my statement and arguments regarding why Talon is better than Zed or are you going to keep spamming nonsense? I don't care about your opinion about me, you are not my equal. I told you, I only befriend and care about the opinions of the strong, intelligent and competent. Your rank reflects that you are non of those when it comes to this game.
Carniverous1 votesI was typing to something else, but I got something else you can reply to. I will also go back and read your other statements on Talon as an extra way to show I'm willing to talk to you man to man. I'll be Roughly ~8 mins
Anthony06031 votesYou can't talk to a child, man-to-man. I'm sure this ended well...
Anthony06031 votesLol the issue here is you are comparing in game efficiency to this strong, intelligent, competent idea. Being one, does not mean you possess the other. Literally, look at yourself, you may be decent at league, but you are clearly not strong, intelligent, or competent. But you are good at a game, so keep jacking your dick and claiming that that makes you "better" then others. It's actually quite funny. Because that point in itself proves your incompetence, trying to compare two completely unrelated things like that.
YossarianSensei3 votesMain advantage to Talon is how easy and reliable his combo is, and how hard you can carry if you snowball
Mecha MaIphite2 votesZed has a slow, so you can't really say he has no CC. If you meant no Hard CC, Talon has that drawback as well.