http://champion.gg/champion/Cassiopeia What is this garbage? she's underperforming worse than before.... holy motherless goat Riot.
To be fair though, I supported these changes and other people said it would ruin her... I was wrong, they were right. Current Cass is absolute garbo.
Hyrum Graff44 votesWith a sub-40% winrate, the issue is almost certainly that her numbers are crap.
Let's give Riot a chance to buff her, before we call the rework a failure.
Linna Excel3 votesYeah, I'm hoping a buff will work, but she needs to be able to deal damage and not explode so easily. The first part is pretty easy to fix, but I don't know how riot is planning to make her a little more survivable in lane.
Hyrum Graff13 votes[{quoted}](name=Linna Excel,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=W0XMPTV4,comment-id=00050000,timestamp=2016-05-09T04:09:39.666+0000)
Yeah, I'm hoping a buff will work, but she needs to be able to deal damage and not explode so easily. The first part is pretty easy to fix, but I don't know how riot is planning to make her a little more survivable in lane.
Well, the E change helps a bit with that because she can switch targets more easily. She'll lose some DPS, sure, but she won't lose her E for the rest of the teamfight. That means she can position more safely in teamfights and just hit the tanks, instead of being forced to chase after whichever target she poisoned. Of course, that doesn't mean anything when you simply don't deal damage, period -- but again, a numbers thing.
I'd also like to point out, any champion can be made viable by numbers buffs alone. The issue is whether those champions are healthy enough that Riot is willing to give them balanced numbers. We can't really answer that question until we see Cass in a balanced state, at which point we can ask ourselves whether that looks healthy.
Awaiting 6.10, over and out
ProfDrDeath8 votesAwaiting 6.10, over and out
For Cass, I'd probably say she will not be wholly fixed in 6.10 - rather, I think that it will take till 6.11 or 6.12.
Battlecast Sona6 votesI think the benefit of the changes overall for Cass will be that her passive is no longer a confusing, ridiculous mess of gating mechanics intended to keep her from being a bully. Now you just can't opt into the safety of early boots in certain matchups, but she still achieves the sort of "scaling" builds because of the extra item slot - or she can opt into additional utility or defensive items. I definitely don't think she's great, but I think she's in a lot better spot than she was pre-6.9... at least she has a unique mechanic in her kit now that will give her some utility.
Eraenis2 votesWell, pre 6.9 Cassiopeia at least had an identity (although it was one a lot of people did not like). Can you tell me what she is supposed to be now? And don't tell me she is an anti mobility mage like the video by riot claimed. If you ever played Cassiopeia, you know that that is just nonsense.
The first rework had some good ideas (poison amp, mana management) and one really bad one (passive) This rework has one kinda good idea (passive) and that's basically it. On top of that it seems like alot of details were changed for the sake of changing something, but without any real plan behind it.
Why was the way the Q animation and speed up worked changed? Why was the way the E range worked changed? It's already revoked on pbe right now, so why was it changed in the first place?
Vellich0r4 votesHer identity is that of a snake mage. Her poisons help her and debilitate her prey while she lets out quick strikes like a viper. She also works best when she draws her prey into the jungle where she can hide among the bushes and unleash a cloud of deadly venom to cripple foes entirely.
Serpents Embrace2 votesExcept the new W is complete trash in the jungle...
Battlecast Sona4 votesI think there were some other good changes for sure. Grounded may not be functioning exactly as it should (I think W needs no minimum range, honestly, as the primary issue it has is that it removes Cassi's ability to deal with melee range divers...) but the debuff itself has a lot of potential. Her E no longer requiring the poison to have a short CD but rather doing good damage I think is also really nice for Cassi's spell rotations - she no longer loses her E for the remainder of a fight if she hits an unpoisoned target, she just does less damage.
Currently she's a sustained damage caster with decent CC and mobility tools, but her damage I think is too low. Perhaps base damage scaling on her E that effects the boosts the non-poison damage a bit? Higher ratios on E and W (the ratio on Q already got buffed pretty considerably) would probably help her take advantage of having an additional item. I think they've finally got her kit into a place where numbers changes won't be as polarizing as they were previously (where buffs would make her unbearable but nerfs made her worthless), but it will really depend on where they go from here.
Serpents Embrace1 votesI'd really have to disagree on the E. Having it rely so heavily on CDR is what really kills her early game. Even if you land a Q (which is so difficult now that they've made it so bad) you can't double tap E to trigger Thunderlord's for harass. You hit the Q, maybe through an E, and all you've really done is lose mana - the damage isn't anything to talk about.
Tiowthy2 votes[{quoted}](name=Serpents Embrace,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=W0XMPTV4,comment-id=0005000000000001000000010000,timestamp=2016-05-10T01:58:45.825+0000)
I'd really have to disagree on the E. Having it rely so heavily on CDR is what really kills her early game. Even if you land a Q (which is so difficult now that they've made it so bad) you can't double tap E to trigger Thunderlord's for harass. You hit the Q, maybe through an E, and all you've really done is lose mana - the damage isn't anything to talk about.
I honestly believe the E is manageable. The Q and W is the main problem. As you've said, it's so annoying to have fights in the jungle. What are your thoughts on W not stopping on terrain now? It could help but honestly they should just revert the range nerf on Q and the controllable W.
Serpents Embrace3 votesIt won't help as long as you can't cast it on yourself. That was the most important use case because it's the one that helped you survive. Also, doesn't the current iteration not give sight? So throwing it over terrain without that means that you're only going to get any value out of it if you're helping a teammate. She's not a support, but it seems that everything utility they let her keep is really only useful for helping SOMEONE ELSE, since she's too weak to capitalize on it.
And I really just can't agree about the E. The current iteration is the dumbest garbage I've seen since the last time they reworked her. It does nothing alone, so the low base cooldown means nothing. The damage you get from it, even when they're poisoned, barely breaks through regeneration until late late late in the game. You can't harass. You struggle to farm with it. You can rarely help in team fights (you can...stun with your R maybe, that's about it). You just can't do anything. Even just the fact that you can't double tap someone with it after a Q in lane to harass with Thunderlord's means that it severely hampers her ability to have any presence early. And that's bad. If she doesn't have the ability to attempt to win a lane she will keep up with this 36% win rate trash. Right now, it's basically Pick Cass mid -> lose lane -> lose game or get carried.
I'd be happy with them reverting everything, then going back to the drawing board. Serpentine Grace is a nice idea. Revisiting her Q's scaling or damage or whatnot to make it less powerful harass early is great. But all they've done with this is completely punish anyone who plays Cass by red taping up all her abilities that she can't function. I'd love it even more if they'd drop this stupid notion that in order to be a late game focused Mage she has to be useless before 30 minutes.
EcchiOtakuTM2 votesAll I wish for cassi is they greatly reduce her mana cost, tired of having to build tear/catalyst items on her just want to morello and build normally since morello has grevious wound cdr for q,w+r and kickass amount of AP with athena's old passive.
Completely dislike catalyst much weaker than I thought it'd be but decent on cassi still cause high mana cost, but I don't want to be damaged for mana...... Tear is great but I like morel best for a mana item just again a shame cassi's mana cost are so dam high.
Wheatloaf2 votesPeople have an odd habit of thinking to blame mechanics and reworks before they even start to think that maybe the state of balance they're in is the problem.
ltmetal14 votesI said it before, I'll say it now. Cass can't be fixed with low scope VGUs. She belongs in the bucket of failed reworks with Ryze, Mordekaiser, and Skarner so she can get the full relaunch she deserves.
EvilRabbitt12 votesMay Eve join that bucket? She wants a rework...
Sum Wun Speshal3 votesMay I ask you, how many times have you played Evelynn? I've read this argument a couple of times now and I wonder what state of knowledge the players have who ask for an Eve VGU.
ltmetal3 votesEvelynn has only known what it is to be oppressive or underpowered due to her whacked out power budget. Her unique stealth mechanic has so much strategic value that it changes the game for the other 9 players. "I win the ward war starting in champ select" is such a powerful tool that her sustain, durability, and crowd control have taken hits to compensate. Something more reasonable like "I win the ward war once I hit level 6, but lack effective crowd control" would bring Evelynn closer to the middle of the balance spectrum and ameliorate the nerfs she's received over 5 years. Mordekaiser is another example of this. Because he got so much bonus XP in a duo lane after his update, they killed his base stats to compensate and it still wasn't enough. Having his XP looting mechanic has permanently unbalanced him for solo lanes due to it taking up so much of his power budget and locks him to the same "always oppressive or underpowered but never balanced" state as Evelynn in a duo lane.
TL;DR: Evelynn has no usability or gameplay problems, but her stealth mechanic as it exists now makes her unbalanceable.
My Waifu Vanilla4 votesAlso, it is PHYSICALLY impossible for Eve to ever function well as an "assassin" with perma stealth. If Eve is ABLE to simply 1 shot people out of stealth it would never be balanced (look at Rengar for most of last year) since the only counterplay is either ALWAYS standing on a pink, or grouping up in a big ball which is also asking to be Malphite ulted or something.
The reason Eve always had to build tanky (whenever she was competitively viable) after the removal of DFG (thank god that shit was stupid on release rework eve) was because anytime she WAS able to kill champions right out of stealth she was nerfed since it was extremely one-sided with 1 skill shot involved on Evelynn's part.
As much as Zed IS annoying, at least you can see him coming for his kill whereas Eve just pops up right next to your ADC and W -> R (if needed) -> E -> QQQ them to death with no warning besides "did our TEAM pink every possible flank?"
ltmetal2 votesYou are correct sir. I'm going to have to keep her in mind, although there has yet to be a red post straight up saying that Eve needs a full relaunch.
Xanit10 votesThey're planning a hotfix for her, but they aren't reverting the changes on her W. Why on earth would they think removing her only defense against targeted gap closers (which are mostly all easy one-shot assassins) is a good idea? Sure, she can sort of deny passage through a lane, jungle path, or river, but the slow is negligible and the grounded state isn't properly utilized.
For some reason they're also really adamant about reducing her effective poke range with her Q as well. I mean, aren't delayed AoE skillshots actually GOOD DESIGN? I don't want to be Katarina and endlessly poke with instant targeted damage. It's not fun, it's not engaging. It's crap.
Lady Hammerlock10 votesBasically she is an AP version of an ADC except she's garbage
Quepha10 votesAbout half of it is probably just being undertuned, it's hard to judge a champion's power before it hits live servers.
The other half is probably players just not playing her properly, there is so much weird stuff going on with the most popular and highest winrate choices in pretty much every field, like really obvious things that make it seem like most players didn't even think about the implications of her changes.
Champion Skin2 votesCassiopeia might struggle because she is weaker early (lower base damage on E as it scales with level) at level 18 the base damage is the same but the new Cassiopeia has the bonus damage when target is poisoned however it has almost twice as long cooldown (though it does scale with CDR)
Also while her W while having a bigger AoE the targeting can be troublesome making it harder to poison targets
Sahn Uzal8 votesThe thing that surprises me the most is that you admitted you were wrong about something. I haven't seen that before
Bobloser35557 votesHer AP ratios are bad.
The Queen Viper2 votesNot really ... still better than what she used to have.
Bobloser35552 votesShe could make up for it thou due to her passive and E spammability. Her new E has a bad ratio because it has a high base damage.
The Queen Viper2 votesHer E ratio went down only by 10% ... from 55% to 45%.
Her E spam is only limited in the early game and should be the same 0.5 during mid/late game as long as you have 30% CDR or higher.
She was compensated however, with that higher base dmg + with the fact that you can still spam it no matter if the enemy is poisoned or not. So she will do more consistent DPS as the game goes on.
My Waifu Vanilla4 votesAlso having an "infinite" mana pool in lane by simply last hitting with E without poisoning the minions first is a good upgrade.
DeathBurst6 votesWinrate doesn't mean the rework is a failure, it means she's under-tuned. Numbers could be buffed until she reaches a reasonable performance, but that wouldn't mean the rework is a success either. You don't judge the outcome of a rework by winrate, because the purpose of a rework is not balance, it's game health.
Is Cass more interactive? Less binary? Does she have a unique playstyle, and/or a unique output in a team? I have no feckin' idea, but those are the interesting questions you should try to answer, and we don't feckin' care that she has 36% winrate...
Dominick Destine1 votesWinrate doesn't mean the rework is a failure
Actually that's exactly what it means.
36%? get fornicated.... that's way below acceptable parameters.
My Waifu Vanilla1 votesSyndra must have been a failure of a champion then and should instantly have been put on the rework list. Same with Bard. Both champions sported around a 36% winrate on their respective releases so I wonder why they weren't instantly put up for reworks. Oh wait, because a numbers buff and time allowed them to climb to "acceptable parameters."
Dominick Destine2 votes[{quoted}](name=My Waifu Chocola,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=W0XMPTV4,comment-id=000f00000000,timestamp=2016-05-09T18:39:35.367+0000)
Syndra must have been a failure of a champion then and should instantly have been put on the rework list. Same with Bard. Both champions sported around a 36% winrate on their respective releases
Syndra WAS complete garbage on release.... your argument is atrocious.
Bard was bad and got buffed.
Presently Absent6 votesQ: Range reduced W: wonky, uncontrollable, can't throw over walls or on top of yourself E: cooldown increased (from old on-poison cast)
Her early mana is an even bigger problem than before. You can use maybe 3 Twin Fangs then you're oom. She's been reduced to a poke champion with her low-ish range Q (which does decent damage, don't get me wrong) but her all in...her 'teeth' feel dulled. New W ironically makes her feel like she has _less _ control than old Cass and E just doesn't feel right to use anymore. You always feel like you're waiting on it longer than you should.
Nαgma6 votesCass mains are always right when it comes to talk about cassiopeia . i warned riot repertoir 2 weeks before the patch , that cassio was about to be trash tier . he ignored me and told me , that she was " too strong " and he even said that if he listened to the player base when they say a champion is weak , the champion would be beyond busted once released on live serves . Rofl .
The Whamboozler5 votesIs Cass still 110% reliant on spamming her E to matter?
Yeah, then she's still garbo to me. I haven't liked her since they decided her Q shouldn't have damage on it way back when. If I want to play a short-ranged spell spammer, I'll play Ryze. When I play Cass I want to be a poisonous freakin' medusa!
A Liberal3 votesHer poisons still only serve to empower her e, but now there is zero risk involved, and the reward was adjusted to match.
LIN4 votesThe main problem is her W. Lost the vision, minimum cast rangelast shorter, can't cast over walls, got 22 seconde cool down! And for all those nerfs, what do we get? Wow the new spell can ground champions and is bigger...
I use W to slow enemy, farm / harass because low cool down and vision. Now I can't do any of these well.
Also E does no dmg without Q. Now you must use a combo do some dmg. And because of the longer cd you can't hit your enemy more than 2-3 times. E is useless alone. You are dead vs melee now if you miss Q.
And the movement speed passiv... Yeah have 6 items is nice but I don't always get 6 items. Also the old passive gave me bonus Ap%
And please please for the love of medusa. Make the poison less confusing. The visual effects are kinda worse now. Poison effects are smaller. On red minion even worse to see
tougherswede3 votesPersonally I think that the changes to her W were pretty cool. Laning against her you are left with a choice: stay in the effect range of her W and risk being slowed / vulnerable to her empowered twin fangs, or get up in her face and hope she doesn't have her ult up, in which case she stuns you and most likely gets a kill. It sets up some interesting counterplay and dynamics when playing against a skilled Cass. Just my 2 cents though
Xanit2 votesPersonally I think that the changes to her W were pretty cool. Laning against her you are left with a choice: stay in the effect range of her W and risk being slowed / vulnerable to her empowered twin fangs, or get up in her face and hope she doesn't have her ult up, in which case she stuns you and most likely gets a kill. It sets up some interesting counterplay and dynamics when playing against a skilled Cass. Just my 2 cents though
If you get up in her face, you have a better chance of dodging her ult, because you can just walk around her during the windup. It has a shorter width at close range. Also, if RNG favors you, and the facing detection bugs out when you're walking sideways, you're only 20% slowed and still at an advantageous range.
Dominick Destine9 votesduring the windup.
The horrendous windup that has no reason to exist.
Lee's ultimate is an instant snare/stun/knockback at point click, for what possible reason is Cassiopeia crippled with one of the worst ultimates in the game? possibly the worst now that Taric's has been buffed.
My Waifu Vanilla3 votesIn every single regard it is a flat out worse Azir ult. Disengage? Azir's isn't conditional and is MUCH harder to avoid. Duration? Pfft not even close. Damage? Fairly certain Azir's does more, but don't quote me on that. Follow up? Removal of being able to drop W under your stunned target (most of the time) means you have to wait the Q delay before you can actually start doing damage to them with E which is a good amount of the stun duration.
Honestly Cassiopeia is just outclassed in almost ALL regards to Azir. Sustained damage? Azir does damn near the same amount, except his is MUCH more front loaded aswell. Safety? Longest gap closer in the game with the drift and his ult makes him "unengageable". Range? Azir probably doubles Cassiopeia's E range with his 800 (?) range soldier autos. Lane bully? Cassiopeia lost that privilege when they nerfed E's early damage (no more level 2 FB).
In no world can I see Azir and Cass both being "viable" picks at the same time since they both want to do the EXACT same thing, except Azir does almost everything Cass does (literally everything but Grounded, but Azir's ult is so much better at protection and anti mobility) and then more.
FROScountered1 votesLol shes not garbage shes way more usefull now with her miasma . Just max it and spam in teamfight . max second E and that it . If you say shes garbage , its because only noob who never played her destroy her playstyle .
LIN5 votesFor F sake it has a cooldown of 22 seconde! 22 seconde is a eternity in lol. I don't even dare to use it. I used the old W for vision, engage, disengage , farm. If you miss you Q you can still W everywhere
Now it can ground champions but the change cost too much
Serpents Embrace2 votesSoooo much this.
They took W, gave it a new use case, and then took away all the old ones. It went from having immense utility to having specific utility for one scenario.
Dengeden1 votesWtf, even I can't argue with that... Her kit is so damn versatile, I don't understand how nobody has onetricked her yet. Is her dependence on a mana item (and blue elixier) too high? Is turning away from her ult too easy?
... to an extent, people are still figuring her out. Personally, I don't like that they're not starting E nor do I think much of their preference for Deathcap (look at those AP ratios, a maximum of 70% over 3 seconds)) but those are minor nitpicks.
Dominick Destine2 votesto an extent, people are still figuring her out
Dengeden4 votesIs that supposed to be a sassy face or are you simply referring to Malz roflstomping mid&jungle?
Cuz you know, Malz basically got an extra ability, his overperformance isn't very surprising. Not to mention that his individual abilities remained relatively unchanged.
Dominick Destine7 votesMalz and Cass were pseudo-reworked at the same time.
Cass is severely underperforming. Malz is severely 'overperforming'.
The "PPL JUS NED TO GET USED TO LERN HOW 2 PKAY HERRRR!!!" argument doesn't work, it's garbage, it has always been garbage. It's a terrible argument.