I absolutely accept that those who build damage and %pen should be able to kill tanky targets

HateDaddy··6 votes·1,818 views

It is completely reasonable that if you build 100% offense and invest in a tank killing item to scale that offense further, you should have the capacity to kill a tanky target.

There’s a few problems with this though, allow me to explain:

1.) The relationship between offense and defense tips way too heavily in favor of offense, especially early and late game sans those without the capacity to proc aftershock, but even then that’s only a temporary state of durability early game. Meanwhile, all the other keystones have a much more spammable window of opportunity. And when late game arrives, and keystones stop mattering as much, then %pen and offense override defense way too much.

Honestly, does void staff really need to ignore 40% of my magic resistance when I can barely get to 130 mr? Not only that, it gives 70 AP, too! I’d have no problem with rabadons being cheaper if void staff only ignored 25-30% of magic resistance (let’s not forget that flat magic pen is much more efficient because targets rarely exceed 150MR).

In addition, we have two %Armor pen and %armor shred in BC (which should honestly be melee only at this point, that would fix a few things right away). One does 35% armor pen with a tank killing passive built in, the other does 40% and reduces healing, which is a big deal for several tanks/bruisers. While armor levels can exceed some ridiculous numbers in some cases, even doing 30% with critical strike amplifying AD and giant slayer passive go a long way in melting tanks/bruisers. And if they stack HP, BotRK is also an option. Do we really need to have numbers that high, especially with keystones that do further amplify damage (though most aren’t strong late game, but still - it matters)?

Defensive items do not need buffs. High value defense items just lead to abuse cases. Their numbers are fine, and in fact you could argue some armor items need nerfs (cough cough delete bramble vest). Unfortunately, they are necessary currently because they provide some mid game comfort before exponentially falling off a cliff late game because of all the %pen that exists and it’s ludicrously high values (honestly, I hardly consider conquerer a problem here, %pen with critical strike does way more damage than flat amped true damage that is easily countered by HP; still, conquerer is not a good keystone design [none are]).

As I stated previously, I respect that offense should beat defense - in fact, it’s necessary. But the relationship favors offense too much and that should be adjusted.

Leading me to point number two

Get rid of damage supports. Rework Pyke and scrap Pyke’s design entirely, supports do not need to be executing people because that’s just another damage source I can’t deal with as a front liner, especially when you consider that these items for defense were balanced around the idea of 4 damage dealers max on a team, not 5. Give utility a chance to be utility, because as it stands you’ve just bastardized utility so that anyone can get it in two items then go full offense from there. This is a horrible concept design because enchanters don’t feel good because of this, and tank supports are the only thing that can compete with this because they can at least fend off double damage bot lanes in the early game with aftershock.

This is another follow up point to point number two:

Stop letting offense (both AP and AD) double dip into defense so much. The only offense items that should double dip are bruiser items, and you can easily make these unattractive to AD champions by giving them passives that reward front liners for staying in fights and make several key conceptual items melee only (BC). As it stands, not only do glass cannons shread too much late game, they actually become unreasonably difficult to kill because they get modest amounts of defense (remember, non glass cannon champions - typically the biggest threat to glass cannons - are not building %pen).

This is why I feel like damage really feels out of control. It’s because the system is rigged to favor offense and you’ve done nothing bad add additions to this game that further increase this divide without toning down offense (again, you shouldn’t tone up defense, you need to tone down offense). I actually think you’ve done a lot to reduce snowballing and make base defense feel real, but the problem is that games just deathball too quickly once teamfight do happen - which leads to people being afraid to even fight in the first place. I think if these things got adjusted, you could actually make the game feel reasonable balanced. So yeah, that’s just food for thought.

13 Comments

Mordepool5 votes

I only see item 3071 built. I never see ad Penetration items anymore. And marksmen have no trouble bursting a Tank down.

This is a Problem and anyone who doesn't see it as such is willfully ignorant

Frankly BC needs an Armor shred nerf (possible melee ranged split aswell)

HateDaddy3 votes

{quoted}

I only see item 3071 built. I never see ad Penetration items anymore. And marksmen have no trouble bursting a Tank down.

This is a Problem and anyone who doesn't see it as such is willfully ignorant

Frankly BC needs an Armor shred nerf (possible melee ranged split aswell)

LW itirerations arw built all the time lol

Sure, Lucian builds BC, but he’s not the only ADC

Ralanr3 votes

So basically we need to reduce offense and reduce pen?

I’d be fine with that. Hell I’d be fine with losing bramble for that (I’m not entirely a fan of thornmail as it’s meant to be effective against dps which counters tanks but if you must keep it then just push GW to thornmail and keep brambles reflect so you don’t get GW super early). I think this would benefit fighters and juggernauts more since they’re more reliant on stats to be durable as they have very few shielding or defense enhance abilities that aren’t healing.

Done253 votes

Personally I don't agree that offence should automatically win late game in champ vs champ. Why? Because you don't win by killing champs. You will by taking out objectives. That 400 Amumu will probably need 3~4 full minion waves to kill the same tower that Jinx can melt in 10 seconds, or less.

HateDaddy6 votes

{quoted}

Personally I don't agree that offence should automatically win late game in champ vs champ. Why? Because you don't win by killion champs. You will by taking out objectives. That 400 Amumu will probably need 3~4 full minion waves to kill the same tower that Jinx can melt in 10 seconds, or less.

If that wasn’t true, teams would just stack the best tanks and wet noodle fight until one team is aced and towers will fall without consequence because of how minions scale.

Ralanr2 votes

Yeah, even as a tank player I accept getting outscaled by offense.

Though it’s really annoying when people say “Tanks have great late games.” As if ignoring how defensive scaling works.

Iota Theta2 votes

Overall agreed. I don’t mind getting beat as a tank as much when the enemy built the items to do so. I’d rather lose to armor pen than to a build with Conquerer, since those tend toward still being burstier builds, which a tank should be better against.

A couple minor points:

item 3124 also grants hybrid %pen, although less than the other items cause, well, hybrid. item 3036 only gives 35% total armor pen as a passive, no more Giant Slayer passive. item 3033 still has GW, but is only 25% total armor pen.

HateDaddy1 votes

Oh they did make that change, I totally forgot about that.

BobaFlautist1 votes

I don't understand why in cases like BC where an item is clearly inappropriate on long-ranged champions but there are edge cases of low-ranged non-melee champions like Gnar and Urgot that would be butchered by making them melee-enabling they don't just put a maximum range on the effects in question - no particular reason Darius absolutely needs to be still shredding my armor and speeding himself up when I've flash+dashed 1k units away.

Cind3rkick1 votes

So your saying that an ADC or mage shouldnt be able to 1v1 a tank?

Saianna1 votes

Damage used to outscale armor "fairly". Now just anything outscales armor, because true damage and bonus damage is tossed like candy. And to add even more salt to the wound, lifesteal is so overabundant, that even the thornmail we fought for so god damn long is a joke. An ADC can facetank a bruiser, because lifesteal is so strong. That is just broken.

At this point "tanks" are nothing more than exposable AOE CC that dissapears after being used.

This game is pretty worthless to play "normal" modes, or ranked, cause the balance is gone since few seasons. It's just wasteland of "who has bigger gun". Play fun modes that are just as balanced as normal games, but faster.

RootOfAllThings1 votes

Get rid of damage supports. Rework Pyke and scrap Pyke’s design entirely, supports do not need to be executing people because that’s just another damage source I can’t deal with as a front liner, especially when you consider that these items for defense were balanced around the idea of 4 damage dealers max on a team, not 5. Give utility a chance to be utility, because as it stands you’ve just bastardized utility so that anyone can get it in two items then go full offense from there. This is a horrible concept design because enchanters don’t feel good because of this, and tank supports are the only thing that can compete with this because they can at least fend off double damage bot lanes in the early game with aftershock.

If this is the case, why is Pyke negative against every single Enchanter support? From this 9.3 data, some of his worst matchups are Sona, Janna, Nami, Taric and Soraka. If you ask elsewhere you can find indications that he's good against Lulu and even against Sona, Nami, and Soraka. Pyke isn't designed to beat Enchanters and Tanks (bar Tahm Kench and Shen, who are in the dumpster among the entire support group), he's designed to prey on squishy burst mages in the bot lane like Brand, Lux, and Vel'koz. And beating on burst mages should be a net positive if your gripe with the game is too much damage and not enough utility coming out of bot lane.

Yaskamasandwich1 votes

I preferred the old ways when it came to late game: It depended what champion you picked, and how said champion fit into your team comp. Malphite, Maokai, and Sejuani, and Sion (when he reached a certain amount of stacks) were late game god tanks. While Lucian, Quinn, Graves, and Draven were early game Marksmen. It wasn't based on class power spikes, it was based on the champion's kit and stats on power spikes.

Now it depends entirely on class for late game, which killed the creativity and basically made every champion the same in their classes. Before it was just a marksmen problem of having only 3 good marksmen per meta because they were all the same. Now every class has only 3 viable champions at most, because might as well pick the most op champions of their classes if you're going to pick one. Having said that I only see Sion as the only tank viable in this meta.

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