Wit's End needs changes if it's going to compete with Bork and other items on bruisers/tanks

FalconPawwwwnch··15 votes·1,890 views

People who you used to live and die with wit's end in season 2 don't buy it anymore because either 1) bork is just better in most cases (Shyvana, Irelia) since it doesn't scale well at all unless your kit synergizes EXTREMELY well with the item, and even then Bork is just as good if not better (like Warwick), or 2) The item isn't as good as it was in Season 2 so champions just don't like it anymore (Shen, Udyr, Nautilus, Xin Zhao, Cho'Gath).

Everyone knows that fighters/tanks who want more sustained damage only buy "non-scaling" damage items. These non-scaling damage items refer to items whose (usually along with granting some sort of defense) main form of damage doesn't scale with abilities or multiple offensive stats, usually involving CDR, attack speed, or on hit effects, and whose main purpose is to increase one's base damage/utility. Items like Trinity Force, Wit's End, Blade of the ruined king, Frozen Heart, Spirit Visage, Sunfire Cape, Iceborn Gauntlet all fit this category. All of them give some sort of damage boost while also providing survivability; also note how the main damage boost doesn't scale multiplicatively unlike attack damage would (Trinity Force is usually bought on melee champs for the 200% base damage proc since melees have high base AD, Bork is usually bought on melee champs for the 8% on hit damage, not the mere 25 AD, tanks don't buy Gauntlet for the AP, but for the 125% base AD proc, CDR, and the slow, etc).

Now, although wit's end's damage never scaled into the late game since it was always flat damage, in season 2 this made more sense because it only was 2150 gold (previously 2000), so the gold cost fit since the item was meant to be a mid game item. However, now, it costs 2600 gold, which is basically around what late game tank/fighter items cost. This contradicts the item's stats and makes it so people are less willing to buy it. if it's going to cost as much almost as much as end game gear, then the stats on it need to scale into the late game. If you're playing a bruiser/tank and want an attack speed sustained damage item, Bork scales your damage MUCH better late game than wit's end does.

In my opinion, wit's end can be changed in a few ways; I'll list my ideas and you guys can rate your opinion on them.

Idea 1) Wit's End loses the MR shred, but the cost gets reduced to 2250-2300 What this change does: -Makes the item more accessible to champions without a ton of innate magic damage (Irelia) -Reflects the item's main role of being a mid game based item

Idea 2) Wit's End loses the MR shred, but the on hit damage is changed to be a % of the target's current or maximum health, cost is changed by X depending on the on hit value What this change does: -Makes the item scale a lot better into the late game meaning it can compete with Bork on champions like Shyvana who have a lot of innate magic damage -Maintains the items current niche being for champions that can utilize the shred effectively -Gives the item counterplay. If the %on hit damage was added but the MR shred was kept, the item would counter its own counters which would be pretty broken

Idea 3) Wit's End receives no changes and stays the way it is, or some other idea that I didn't mention.

If you vote please leave a post why you believe what you believe. Let's get some discussion going.

18 Comments

Delioth8 votes

I'ma be honest, I only get it on my on-hit Kayle (item 3091 item 3115 item 3071 item 3085 item 3153 item 1001 ) Because who doesn't want to shred all of a team's resistances, deal damage to both types, and why not hit %hp damage on top?

NinjaToad991 votes

Now I really want to try that.

L7xLoTek4 votes

You kinda forgot option 4) Could perhaps use some work, but not one of those. Personally I really like Wit's End, but I feel its current issue is more of a problem of the current bursty meta than the item being bad.

Then again, I play Skarner jungle, so.... ^^;;

Cindikle3 votes

Problem I hear the most is the build path is horrible.

Have the Dagger and Mantle build into something for cheaper. The final upgrade will be Wit's End.

Top lane champs would be much more likely to build it vs ap's if they could make use of it in lane.

Essence Reaver has the same problem.

Sire Hippington3 votes

What wit'S end needs is a path-cleanup and a lategame stage. It's to costy for an earlygame kaneing item, yet not slotefficient for a fullbuiled, makeing it very niche for champs+situation that allow to utilize it to the max. we need a low cost item(around hextrinker/cutless lvl) that gives some as+onhit that then builds into a wit'S end with ~3000g costs and acordingly better stats

suggestion: Mystical scimitar: item 1042 + item 1033 +550(1400g),

  • 20% as
  • 20 mr
  • 20 magic damage on hit

item 3091 : Mystical Scimitar+item 1042 +item 1033 +950(3200g total)

  • 50%as
  • 25(+20% of your MR) magical damage on hit
  • 40 MR
  • 5 mr shred on hit(up to 5 stacks)
  • +5 mr on hit(up to 5 stacks)
  • 5ms

Distrotion Blade: Mystical Scimitar+item 3101 +850g(3350g total)

  • 60%as
  • 45 magical damage on hit
  • 10% cdr
  • 20 mr
  • 5 mr-shred on hit(up to 5stacks
  • +5 mr on hit(up to 5stacks)

anyway, i think takeing away the magicshred is the worst thing possible. The Magic shred is the main-reason why i still build it on some champions/ in some situations. Not only does it help all aa-focused champs with high magical base-damage(Chogath Kayle Shyvana ...), but it also increaes all magical damage your entire team does to the target, scaleing into the late by amping the damage of your magical-dds.

also, as a side note, the shred is flat, so it wouldn't counter mr-stacking, so it wouldn't really counter it'S own counter for your idea two(it would even make combineing it with %pen a bit less effecktive, as the flat shred is applyed befor the %pen)

Leti the Yeti2 votes

ooooor.. we can remove the item tank dont need adc's building bork and wits end with % health damage they might as well buy 5 thorn mails cuz fuck health lmao

Rebonack2 votes

The only buff that Wit's needs is to have the Recurve Bow replaced with Malady (Dagger + Combine for 30% IAS and 15 OnHit magic damage) so that it would have a nice mid-range item to shoot for before finishing it. Adding Malady as an advanced component would also make OnHit itemization much easier to fiddle with.

And to be honest? The MR shred is the most powerful part of the item. If you removed it then you would have make the scaling OnHit damage absolutely devastating. If we wanted this thing to scale somehow, I would suggest making the MR shred portion scale with your bonus magic resist to further cement it as an anti-magic Fighter alternative to Maw.

aaronconlin2 votes

Personally I only build item 3091 on Kayle and sometimes Chogath. I don't think removing the MR shred will help, it will basically remove the main thing this item is good for. It synergies well with item 3115 (RIP Malady) and even item 3124 sometimes. Evelynn might make use of this item with the buff to her E that's coming, too. I do agree that it needs some work, though. Just not the options you listed

NorthernDruid1 votes

The main problem with Wit's End is it's build path I think. There's no comfortable AS+on-hit-dmg item to land on while you're building it. So you're stuck getting either Recurve bow or Null Magic Mantle while savin up for the rest.

I also think it's not meant to compete with BotRK for your damage slot, but rather be the item you get for higer, faster dps along with tankiness. Don't forget that if you can land those 5 hits quickly enough it's 50 MR. Which is pretty top-tier quality when it comes to magic resist.

Bears Dont Care1 votes

The build path is the issue. The item itself is better than blade of the ruined king at some points

ofart1 votes

Wit's End is a pretty weak item outside of niche cases. It's almost as expensive as Nashor's Tooth. I'd bring the cost down to 2450-2500 at the least.

Cerbearus1 votes

Make it stronger by making the damage scale somewhat? (much like Sunfire does 25+level damage, or it could even scale with mr/armor).

On a said note, why is there only like one item that scales with MR/Armor?

Juggernaut Jesus1 votes

I'm always up for the return of Madred's Bloodrazor.

Drukyul1 votes

add some Life on Hit so it has some healing to compete with BotRK but doesn't scale with AD

Jungle Lux God1 votes

I vote option 3 because losing the MR shred is a massive nerf to the item.

A big reason why any champion currently considers Wit's End against Blade of the Ruined King is that many of the current users of the item deal a lot magic damage. Warwick is a prime example: he deals a lot of on-hit magic damage, and Wit's End helps him deal that magic damage. And Warwick is not alone, as Shyvana, phoenix Udyr, and a lot of the other champs you mentioned as well.

This also discounts the synergy that passive has with some of the other items in the game, such as combining it with the burn damage from Sunfire or the on-hit magic damage of Nashor's Tooth.

These problems also ignore the biggest problem with Wit's End: its build path is terrible. Null-Magic Mantle and a dagger is fine for the recipe, but you need a Recurve Bow? In most cases, that is too big of a commitment on an item that really doesn't do as much as it needs to for its cost. Some people have suggested a component item for Wit's End that replaces the Recurve Bow and provides attack speed and its own on-hit damage passive, and these kinds of responses generally receive a lot of positive feedback because of this very reason. Seriously, Wit's End would be a lot better if its recipe was better.

Rebonack1 votes

Seriously, Wit's End would be a lot better if its recipe was better.

Indeedly.

Wit's is an amazing item once it is completed. Its problem is that it's terrible until completed. Replacing the Recurve bow period with Malady would help out both Hurricane and Wit's (and BotRK, and Devourer). If you want %HP magic damage back, just remake Bloodrazor. Malady + Chainmail + Malady for a high-end OnHit item that Fighter folks would like. For extra funsies, give it the old HP stealing passive BotRK used to have.

Remlap12231 votes

Option IV, you nerf Bork because it's damage is bullshit. 5% current health was plenty.

DeusVult1 votes

Honestly, the MR shred is the only reason that anyone buys it, since it works well with people who target the carries and deal some form of magic damage, usually on hit.

Bork has replaced it on many non-magic dealing bruisers, simply because the damage is always relevant and it has the active and only costs a little bit more, plus has lifesteal. IMO, wits looks bad simply because Bork is so good.

However, champs like Warwick, Naut, skarner, shen, shyvana and even jax can all make good use of it, since a ton of their damage is magical, they go for the carries who have 30-45 MR, which wits brings to almost 0.

IMO, wits should see a price drop, and Recurve bow should be removed and replaced with a new item, which builds out of dagger+gold, gives 30% AS and 15 on hit magic damage. Because another reason that wits seems bad is you have to build straight AS, so almost no direct stats or results, and then you get the item. Bork builds out of cutlass, which is decent by itself while you finish the item. Meanwhile, Wits is a bag of trash until it is complete

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