I feel like Zhoyas is the reason mages can't have better AP defense items.

xxxMadLionxxx·Feb 9, 2018·53 votes·3,717 views

Just think of it. Look at all the cool damage defense items AD have.

But when you look at ap Thes items all have massive cooldowns and zero sustain defense.

Why can't AP get better AP defense items? I feel like Zhonyas might be taking too much off the power budget from AP defense itemisation (because of the way it can complete ignore vast amounts of damage) and thus riot won't give AP any more defense items.

If thats the case, can't we at least get alernatives to Zhonyas? Similar to ? I honestly don't like Zhonyas and it kinda sucks that it is the main defense item for AP fighters like Diana.

142 Comments

AhristocatsFeb 9, 201829 votes

item 3027 item 3151 item 3116 item 3152 and item 3165 in next patch

call me when marksmen can build HP for defense

PoskeFeb 9, 20189 votes

Mallet, Old Sterak

Death dance and Pd increase your effectivly Hp essentially

Not to mention that you can generate a shield with BT

I honestly dont care how great AD carry itemization is I just dont want other roles to suffer

AhristocatsFeb 9, 201814 votes

mallet is only build on kog, (and is getting nerfed in next patch fyi)

old sterak? dude can you be real for once? i don't get how old sterak is relevant in the game we play RIGHT NOW

also you're right about PD (Death dance is never built on any adc in the current patch) but PD increases your effective health that is low to begin with

the items above give mages flat hp which is higher than what PD gives

i had more troubles killing TF with ROA than an adc with bloodthirster shield

PoskeFeb 9, 20183 votes

If you see Twisted Fate going Roa he is essentially admiting defeat against enemy laner. I understand some popular player builds this (Cant remember who) but majority of players disagree with ROA TF

Mallet is also built On Ezreal (Yes iceborn vs full ad teams)

What about trinity if we cant count old sterak? Do we count Corki as ADC, Ezreal? Do you count them as AD casters or something

250 Trinity Hp vs lyandries and rylais 300

What about doran blade which gives 80 HP while Doran shield gives 60 Not to mention that Building double doran is something you ll see almost every game while building double doran ring is trolling

None builds Death dance? There is nothing wrong with death dance even if none were building it. Death dance is better defensive option for AD carries then any mage item is for mages.

Death dance is essentially a CDR version of BT Dravens definetly build it. Graves definetly builds it. You can build it on Ezreal lucian, sivir, xayah or anyone who doesnt mind CDR

I mean fk there are only what 15 AD carries I just listed you see 6 I am confident can build it

How many mages do you think can build zhonya while not gimping themself? The more you think the worse Midlaner you are

High elo tip from me. Avoid Zhonya like plague. counter zed with cookie / stopwatch rune dont counter with AP itemization you are just getting noob baited

The more you delay Nomicon and Voidstaff the more you are trolling on 80% of mids

THERE ARE LIKE 40 AP MIDLANERS

Just because 5 champions in mid can build zhonya Just because 3 champions in mid can build seraph and have it charged in lategame Just because Banshee is good buy WHEN YOU CAN AFFORD ENTIRE FKING THING Just because 3-4 champions can build fking Rod and have it live lategame Just because 2 champions can build abysall mask

#DOESNT MEAN THAT DEFENSIVE AP OPTIONS ARENT JUST FKING NOOBBAITS FOR THE MOST PART

Handy Sandy Feb 9, 201810 votes

High elo tip from me. Avoid Zhonya like plague. counter zed with cookie / stopwatch rune dont counter with AP itemization you are just getting noob baited.

Probably by far the worst tip i've heard the entire time I've been playing this game.

Talon Fizz Camille MonkeyKing Syndra guess ill die then

Just because 5 champions in mid can build zhoya.

But any mage can build it. That's why it's a defensive item, you don't build it and expect to oneshot everyone. A lot of champions who are really good at holding their lane like Karthus, Heimer, Azir, Malz, and Anivia can comfortably build it second or third item. They don't mind doing a little less damage because that isn't their time to shine yet. If you think they should be fighting and trying to 1v1 everyone without any some sort of lead then you're playing them wrong. Zhonya is also vital to combos of some champions. Vladimir, Lissandra, Kass, Diana, and Rumble for instance. Nobody ever said you have to build it before void staff or morello, it's still a good buy any time in the game. It protects you from pretty much every burst champion in the game.

Just because 2 champions can build abysall mask

Wrong again, while it's not optimal against teams of 3 or 4 APs you can build it on anyone as long as you don't have the range of Xerath and Lux. Anivia AurelionSol Cassiopeia Ryze Karthus

AirKingNeoFeb 9, 20183 votes

Mallet on ranged next patch hyperLUL

PoskeFeb 9, 20182 votes

Anything else on melee champs hyperLUL including keystones

Honestly just the fact that we have frozen mallet in runes now is disgusting

If it ever becomes viable it is going to be one of the most degenerate thing we ever saw. And I dont think its far

So Ranged can have mallet on level 1 essentially.

So far I only saw tahm kenches getting noobbaited by that keystone tho

Diamond2KappaFeb 9, 20184 votes

Most of those items are niche af tho and armor/mr > hp hehe no one even builds Zhonyas anymore unless they abuse the active lel

AhristocatsFeb 9, 20187 votes

{quoted}

Most of those items are niche af tho

most? out of all those items none is niche, Rylai is just terrible right now but is being buffed in next patch

and armor/mr > hp hehe

hp protects you against magic and physical damage AND true damage armor protects you only against physical damage

hehe

no one even builds Zhonyas anymore unless they abuse the active lel

i don't care about zhonya

Diamond2KappaFeb 9, 20182 votes

Depends on what you think niche means, but Liandrys is the only item there thats actually built a lot and new Morello will be a worse version of it.

Zhonyas is the only armor item and no one builds it. Why do normal ap champs like Kat or Ahri or LB or Syndra get like no defensive items while item 3155 nullifies their burst? feelsbadman

RákãñFeb 9, 20187 votes

Black Cleaver? I know Lucian and Miss Fortune builds that time to time. Also with Frozen Mallet Kog'Maw and blood thirster' bonus hp shield.

Also mentioning they have supports that stay on them that heals, shield, and/or peels for them on top of whatever items they build.

And when you get to the point of killing them, just hope their Guardain Angels is not ready yet.

HP isn't the only thing going on with marksmen truthfully.

AhristocatsFeb 9, 20186 votes

ever since last patch lucian builds crit now

black cleaver is something that i forgot mf builds my bad

RákãñFeb 9, 20182 votes

The meta changes a lot. It won't be the last time Lucian builds Black Cleaver unless they remove BC before it happens.

AirKingNeoFeb 9, 20184 votes

Pretty sure Lucian would go ER Zeal IE BC Lifestealand use Transcendence for turning BC CDR into AD, though BC is kinda shitty right now so idk.

Malix FarwinFeb 9, 20183 votes

[{quoted}](name=Je suis Rubick,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=VjJ84A3e,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2018-02-09T20:40:41.895+0000)

and in next patch

call me when marksmen can build HP for defense

are you trolling? they can and do. More importantly if you build all those items on a mage you will lose a lot of damage.

RákãñFeb 9, 201827 votes

With stopwatch now being bulit into 2 items specifically for tank and AD. Zhonyas effect is not really AP exclusive anymore as they planned it to be before.

So when do AP users can get a GA effect on a cheap one use item is the real question.

Acheron16Feb 9, 201821 votes

You can only do a stasis effect every 600G. Considering the VAST majority of mid laners take that rune ON TOP of building Zhonia's, they are getting more value out of that at all times. AD's usually only get one per game.

RákãñFeb 9, 20183 votes

Thats 1 more than APs get with GA really. And stopwatch builds into GA. So it wouldn't really matter if they only can use it once per game really.

HibekiFeb 10, 20187 votes

Yes, thats why AP's don't buil GA.

Because they want stasis.

RákãñFeb 10, 20182 votes

Not really. Its more because of the AD stats. Making it at least 1300 gold not worth into the item as a mage. Its about gold efficiency.

HibekiFeb 10, 20187 votes

You know guardian angel existed and wasnt an ad item.

and ap's still didn't build it.

RákãñFeb 10, 20181 votes

Yes, the majority did build Zhonyas cause it was a stronger choice vs an AD mid like Talon or Zed where it was usually built more often. But there was some people who opted for GA over it over preference of its passive and stats when Zhonyas wasn't needed.

It was more of a choice I liked to have. I wasn't saying it was the best thing ever.

It wasn't never built at all. I know I built it as Ahri last item pretty often before the change so I can have a little extra survivability late game as Ahri tends to fall off due to her scalings.

HäxelFeb 10, 20183 votes

you know, adcs at least rarly build this item either. If it is used, it is used most times on bruisers, assassins or champions like Urgot and Graves. But these Champiosn normaly don't take Stopwatchrune, cause buying Ga is less core and more a reaction. Adcs that go Stopwatchrune sold it most times and rarly build it into ga.

BottleCapsterFeb 11, 20181 votes

Friendo, you can't do a stasis "every 600g" when you use your first stopwatch it breaks for the rest of the match. Part of why the whole League of stopwatches thing has been happening is because of how strong opening up a Zhonya's Stasis, even as a one time use, is when it comes to saving lives or baiting out kills. Yes AP champions still have the ability to use Stasis multiple times, but Stasis itself has been made readily available from the start of the match (After its timer ofc).

His issue is pretty simple. With Stasis broadening in application, it feels a bit odd that we're not getting any new defensive itemization options for mages, especially since the number of defensive options for AD champions has steadily increased.

Acheron16Feb 12, 20181 votes

You do know you can sell that broken watch and buy a new one, right? That what I mean for a stasis effect every 600 gold.

BottleCapsterFeb 13, 20181 votes

Friend. Read. From item 2421 "Unique Passive - Is Broken, but can still be Upgraded. After Breaking One Stopwatch, the Shopkeeper will only sell you Broken Stopwatches.

If you have a item 2420 , and use it. It becomes a item 2421 . If you buy more, you will get Broken Watches. It's quite literally a one-time use item.

ModWulf HelhammerFeb 9, 20185 votes

You can't call stopwatch the same kind of item as hourglass, nor even compare GA and Stoneplate to it.

Do either GA or Stoneplate get an on-demand invulnerability? Does Hourglass break after just one use and can't be bought again?

RákãñFeb 9, 20184 votes

I was talking about the stasis effect which is on Stopwatch, Zhonyas, and TT's moogles cap.

Not sure how you got stoneplates active effect being the same as Guardian Angels's passive effect. As they are two seporate things.

ModWulf HelhammerFeb 9, 20182 votes

Stoneplate and GA both build out of stopwatch.

RákãñFeb 9, 20182 votes

I already mentioned that. Everyone else can use stopwatch which has same active as Zhonyas with no penalty unlike mages if they want GA since the change. So whats the problem? What I said isn't a lie.

All I really mentioned was a one time use Guardian Angel's passive item.

Since they made the Stasis item for AP and Revival item for AD. As before the change, I liked using GA over Zhonyas for its MR and Defence along with its passive.

PoskeFeb 9, 201810 votes

You make a situation seem better then it is even

Most carries can get Each of those items. LITERALY EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM OR ALMOST ALL OF THEM

3-4 Champions can safely build Seraph/Rod which come online way to late, if you think more can you are just bad midlaner. 5-6 champions can build zhonya (This item is vastly overated, like alot it got a slight bump with stopwatch though) Rushing it against zed is mistake on most mids to)

everyone can build banshee... But its buildpath ugh but yeah everyone can build it

I guess we can count Rod as a niche defensive option but then mallet has to be mentioned..

Handy Sandy Feb 9, 20181 votes

5-6 champions can build zhonya (This item is vastly overated, like alot it got a slight bump with stopwatch) Rushing it against zed is mistake on most mids to

how many ap damage focused champions are there in the game again? I forgot.

PoskeFeb 9, 20184 votes

Bruiser is the biggest class with around 60 (Yet weakest class) There are around 40 mages not counting Lb

There are 15 carries or so

JackMcSnipeyzFeb 10, 20189 votes

How can you mention items like PD and Edge of night as defensive options but leave out all the AP + HP items?

Zed geniusFeb 10, 20183 votes

who even builds EoN anymore xd

BobaFlautistFeb 9, 20186 votes

No, I think it's because AP champions are usually focused on burst and gated on cooldowns.

An ad champion with a mix of damage and defense can just keep outputting dps until they die. 1s survivability is 1s more dps.

An ap champion with a mixture of damage and defense just does less damage with their rotation. They get no benefit from 1s more survival, they need enough to last until their cooldowns come up again - it's usually just worth more to build more damage and kill someone with the first rotation.

Besides, you skipped a few.

Items that give ap and defensive stats/actives: item 3003 item 3102 item 3174 item 3030 item 3152 item 3151 item 3027 item 3116

Pure defensive items that work well on AP champions despite having no AP: item 3001 item 3742 item 1416 item 3110 item 3047

yoshi2790Feb 9, 20184 votes

item 3174 is primarily a support item...

BobaFlautistFeb 9, 20182 votes

If OP can call botrk and ravenous hydra support items, I can mention Athene's as an item that gives AP and defensive stats. I didn't say they're all good buys in every situation!

PoskeFeb 9, 20183 votes

Any Lifesteal item is defensive item + BOTRK Can peel

0 mids in a game buy athene while BOTRK is seen on Luc EZ Kog

Iffy JarlFeb 9, 20181 votes

{quoted}

No, I think it's because AP champions are usually focused on burst and gated on cooldowns.

An ad champion with a mix of damage and defense can just keep outputting dps until they die. 1s survivability is 1s more dps.

An ap champion with a mixture of damage and defense just does less damage with their rotation. They get no benefit from 1s more survival, they need enough to last until their cooldowns come up again - it's usually just worth more to build more damage and kill someone with the first rotation.

Besides, you skipped a few.

Items that give ap and defensive stats/actives:

Pure defensive items that work well on AP champions despite having no AP:

item 3742 ? Whut

BobaFlautistFeb 9, 20184 votes

item 3742 on AP carries:

Gives cost effective stats
Easier to save the proc when farming as a mage as you don't have to last hit with auto attacks
Mages are usually really slow! Percentage movespeed is weaker on them, but the flat move speed from deadman's makes them speedy af. Good for dodging skillshots, roaming, positioning.

It's not always a good buy, but it sure as hell is sometimes.

ShablagooFeb 10, 20185 votes

Man, Im really getting sick of this mage bs. First of all lifesteal isnt a defensive item, if that was true then item 3027 would be a defensive item because it gives you health for casting spells but that isnt the reason it is. The defensive items are item 3026 item 3156 item 3812 item 3046 item 3814 item 3072 and for some reason you forgot item 3053 ? And ya it is not because zhonya's is so strong, but because they dont want mages becoming tanks. Mages have large health pools with their items. Add a second defensive item and they will reach mid tank level. Honestly it isnt that hard to understand if you want alot of defense then build it, the proper tank items. You know the difference between a mage and a assassin that builds maw and eon with bc in a full lethality build they have 650 bonus health. With the new ap items you can get bonus 1100 health ( new morello + new liandry + RoA) Or for some assassins maybe swap the RoA for item 3152 thats 900 bonus health. Now another thing is mages seem to want to pretend that health isnt one of the most useful defensive stats in the game, just to get another defensive item. What helps against, ad, ap and even true dmg HEALTH. Regardless of the dmg more health means more dmg you can take because you die. Thats why tanks seem unfair because they naturally have more health to take dmg while also having higher base dmg to dish it.

Mages dont get defensive items because they can build tank and deal massive amounts of dmg if they get more, whether its ad or ap.

MagicalDemonsFeb 10, 20184 votes

Mages aren't suppose to be tanky, they are suppose to deal tons of damage.

The Yetii RiderFeb 10, 20184 votes

What on earth could be a better defensive item than Zhonya's Hourglass? You get a huge chunk of armor, some AP, cooldown reduction, and an active that negates Zed's ultimate, prevents you from being knocked up by Yasuo, makes Talon's ult useless, prevents Rengar's leap crit, saves you from Kha'Zix...basically the only AD assassin that could kill you through Hourglass is Shaco, and that's because Shaco has a bullshit 4.5 second stealth. What do you mean by 'better' defensive items?

As for 'sustained defense', you have that as well. You just don't build it, and you never have. item 3146 . Hextech Revolver gave spell vamp for six fucking years and you lot never bought it. Clearly, you value your burst more than your sustained defense, and Riot acted appropriately. That was the power of the consumer, based on data. If you want items to stick around, you have to buy them and use them.

ExternalLinkFeb 10, 20183 votes

You forreal gonna act like Rylais, RoA, Hextech Items and Athene's don't exist? Lmfao.

Rathar DashingFeb 10, 20182 votes

Athenes? Lmfao.

ExternalLinkFeb 10, 20183 votes

[{quoted}](name=Rathar Dashing,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=VjJ84A3e,comment-id=000a0000,timestamp=2018-02-10T00:17:44.219+0000)

Athenes? Lmfao.

BotrK? Edge of Night? Lmfao.

MizunoFeb 10, 20183 votes

item 3170 should be added in SR. Maybe increase the cost because it's too cost effective!

DragonSheaFeb 10, 20181 votes

item 3157 should be be more of a squishy mage item because a battle mage shouldn't fear getting into a brawl and they should have better scaling on their abilities to make room for proper defensive items, similar to fighters as they also have to get at least one tank item if they hope to be semi-tanky. What mages need are more defined armor options so they can semi-brawl or tank damage from Physical damage dealers.

Handy Sandy Feb 10, 20182 votes

That's not how battle mages work. For reference, these are battle mages: AurelionSol Cassiopeia Vladimir Swain Karthus Azir Lissandra and arguably Fiddlesticks . Each one of them fear being in the middle of a fight without Zhonya up.

Yes they can be tanky, but they must stack damage or else they won't do anything. If you give someone like Vladimir or Cassiopeia better scaling, then it's like an adc getting a free bloodthirster. Unlike fighters, these battle mages do not have high MS, mobility, invulnerability (except vlad), or base stats to aid their survival. Since they're ranged they can't have tools like Fiora or Camille.