Kai'sa, "broken" abilities; now fine on new champions?!

only zhule·Apr 12, 2018·8 votes·4,521 views

So let's start out by me saying that i am a Sona main. I want to address and her Icathian rain. I could write out some long winded thing here. But i'll just get straight to the point. Why is Icathian Rain considered a fair and balanced ability, despite the auto targeting nature, that doesn't eat up a TON of the champions power budget; But Sona's Hymn of Valor and powercords are considered overly strong and thus she has a ton of built in weakness?

31 Comments

5000000000000000Apr 12, 20189 votes

Isn't Sona Q supposed to be problematic because there aren't any counterplay options other than staying out of range? For Kai'Sa Q, you can stay out of range (which is also a lot shorter than Sona Q) or stay close to allies/minions.

TehNACHOApr 12, 20182 votes

Not to mention it shoves the lane more than Sona does.

Or the fact that it doesn't buff allies.

Or the fact that one's a marksman that needs to farm and the other's a Support whose job is to be a dick.

Or the fact that the rest of their kits are quite different.

It's almost as if the context surrounding an ability can make the difference between it being broken on some champions and a-ok on others.

only zhuleApr 12, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Not to mention it shoves the lane more than Sona does.

Or the fact that it doesn't buff allies.

Or the fact that one's a marksman that needs to farm and the other's a Support whose job is to be a dick.

Or the fact that the rest of their kits are quite different.

It's almost as if the context surrounding an ability can make the difference between it being broken on some champions and a-ok on others.

I feel like you have failed to point out how Sona's ability is "broken". Yes context is key, and i'm not saying i expect and ADC to be bound by the same rules as a support. But it's been a long time since anyone was pressured by the auto targeting nature of Sona's hymn of valor, but people still claim it's "too strong" or "broken", but are totally fine with other champions having auto target skills that are straight up stronger at all points in the game.

Please don't give me that tired line of about Supports not suppose to be doing damage. We have long since pasted the point where people are fine with some supports dealing out large amounts of damage from relative safety. So why is a low damage medium cooldown auto target ability too good on a support? Why is Sona's damage considered "strong" when she has to get within 550 range to maximize on it? Why is Sona's damage considered strong when she has 1 offensive ability in her kit?

TehNACHOApr 12, 20183 votes

I feel like you're the kind of person who's not going to listen to anything I say while spouting off rather aggressive assertions and strawmen.

BârdApr 12, 20187 votes

Rain has shit range, Hymm has a considerable range.
Rain has shit damage if it splits, and it doesn't prioritize champions. Hymm doesn't care about isolation and does prioritize champions.
Rain has a 3.3 second CD at max CDR. Hymm has a 2.64 second CD at max CDR, and Sona actually buys enough Mana to spam it that much.
Rain has no additional effect. Hymm has an additional effect.

remakoroApr 12, 20182 votes

Shit range my ass. Its still more than most AA in the game ffs.

Daddy AntsApr 12, 20183 votes

Let's compare Icathian Rain to Hymn of Valor.

I speak as someone who's mastery 7 on both champs (540k Sona, 70k Kai'Sa)

Icathian Rain:

Range: 600 Auto lock on to nearby targets INCLUDING MINIONS Damage splits between targets present at the point of cast. (3 targets take 2 missiles each for example) Multiple missiles on the same target deal slightly reduced damage Extremely low CD when maxed and with CDR but not as low as Sona's Q.

Hymn of Valor: 825 range Auto lock on and has priority on champions. Does not split damage. Empowers Sona and any allies tagged by the aura to do on hit magic damage with their next basic attack. Extremely low CD when maxed and with CDR

remakoroApr 12, 20181 votes

And? Exactly whats your point? If you are fighting 3 vs 1... Well bad for you. In most cases you should get fucked in such situation on any champion. If you are fighting vs 1 person than its not that hard to find place without minions on the rift or kill them.

But 600 range is amazing! Its more than range than almost every AA! It does not require ANYTHING from you. You just keep doing pew pew and then use that abomination when you feel like it. You dont have to go out of your way to get closer to use it. Cuz its actually has even more range than your AA.

And yea Hymn of valor does not split dmg cuz it has limited damage on one target. It never goes up in any situation. And cant hit more than 2 people at time. 160 dmg +50% ap X 2 = for total of 320 + 100% ap. Damage to one target comparable with most single target spells. The damage is split between two targets. And damage to one target will never go above half of that. Compared to Kaisa 110 + 40% bonus ad and 40% ap at least on every single target you hit. So 473 + bonus 172% AD and 172% ap is the LEAST amount of damage you can deal. If you have more enemies around total damage would actually go up. 781 + bonus 284% AD + 284% AP Total if you hit 5 different targets.

Thats almost territory of ultimate abilities. But you have 6s cd base on that things... And cant fuck it up at all. Nothing can go wrong at all.

only zhuleApr 12, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Let's compare Icathian Rain to Hymn of Valor.

I speak as someone who's mastery 7 on both champs (540k Sona, 70k Kai'Sa)

Icathian Rain:

Range: 600 Auto lock on to nearby targets INCLUDING MINIONS Damage splits between targets present at the point of cast. (3 targets take 2 missiles each for example) Multiple missiles on the same target deal slightly reduced damage Extremely low CD when maxed and with CDR but not as low as Sona's Q.

Hymn of Valor: 825 range Auto lock on and has priority on champions. Does not split damage. Empowers Sona and any allies tagged by the aura to do on hit magic damage with their next basic attack. Extremely low CD when maxed and with CDR

Let's use your math. The assumption you made is that both champions are level 16 at least. This means we can make a reasonable assumption that Kai'sa has gotten her upgraded Q.

Let's assume there are two targets since we need a "level" playing field to give reasonable comparison. Hymn will do 160 +60% AP magic damage to each target. Rain will do 275 + 100% AD and AP ratio to each target.

Even at level 16, hymn can only hit up to two targets. This means that it is a garbage skill when you need to clear minions, and since no one builds AD and AS on Sona you can't just auto attack to speed that along. Rain on the other hand is amazing for wave clear. Even with a full wave, Rain will do 143 + 52% AD and AP damage to each minion (more if any of them are under 35% health).

Please also remember that Sona's auto targeting towards champions only kicks in at 700 range. Meaning you have to get a lot closer then you might think to land those bolts.

Spank the FoxApr 12, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=only zhule,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=VixcUPEN,comment-id=0002000000000001,timestamp=2018-04-12T21:41:59.386+0000)

Please also remember that Sona's auto targeting towards champions only kicks in at 700 range. Meaning you have to get a lot closer then you might think to land those bolts.

Are you blind or are you too busy frothing at the mouth why your champion can’t have hard CC and the damage of a carry while providing constant teamwide utility?

The champ lock range is 850. A guy even linked what patch it was from and it has never been changed since. Do you even play Sona, m8?

only zhuleApr 12, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Spank the Fox,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=VixcUPEN,comment-id=00020000000000010000,timestamp=2018-04-12T21:53:18.262+0000)

Are you blind or are you too busy frothing at the mouth why your champion can’t have hard CC and the damage of a carry while providing constant teamwide utility?

The champ lock range is 850. A guy even linked what patch it was from and it has never been changed since. Do you even play Sona, m8?

A) i would take you a little more seriously if you had some match history with Sona. It's harder to believe you know what you are talking about when you haven't played a game with a champion in 6 months.

B) Sona's utility spells are a joke. The utility parts of her passive are pretty decent but the way they work is rather counter intuitive to how you want to play a super squishy champion with no mobility.

C) I'm not sure i believe the 850 range thing. But then i couldn't tell you how range works in this game. I'm not sure anyone could look at a screen shot and tell you with confidence what the range between two things was. They could ball park it probably, i'd be VERY surprised if they could tell you the difference between 700 and 750 range, much less 690-700 range.

only zhuleApr 12, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Rain has shit range, Hymm has a considerable range.

Rain has shit damage if it splits, and it doesn't prioritize champions. Hymm doesn't care about isolation and does prioritize champions.

Rain has a 3.3 second CD at max CDR. Hymm has a 2.64 second CD at max CDR, and Sona actually buys enough Mana to spam it that much.

Rain has no additional effect. Hymm has an additional effect.

Hymn has at best middle of the road range. It's longer then an auto attack but WAY shorter then many other ranged damage abilities. This is also on a character with no built in engage / disengage tool.

Maxed leveled Rain worse case is 110 +40% AD and 40% AP ratio physical damage, best case is 473 + 172% AD and AP ratios. This is also on a character with an ability to gap close from very far away if they are skilled enough. Max leveled Hymn has a worse case of 160 +60% AP ratio with a best case of 160 +60% AP ratio. If you assume two targets Hymn will do 320 +120% AP ratio, Rain will do 330 + 100% AD and AP ratios.

You are really going to bring up the 10-30 damage on next auto attack that Hymn gives?

BârdApr 12, 20181 votes

Crescendo is an engage/disengage tool, as is Tempo.
The issue isn't raw damage, it's usability. Because of its target priority and range, Hymm lets Sona poke in lane very easily. If Kai'sa tried to do the same with Rain, she'd put herself in range for counterattack, push the wave, and end up doing very little damage anyway since most of the bolts would have gone onto the creeps.
That "10-30 bonus damage" scales with AP and applies to everybody. If you're playing optimally, it increases your teams damage output by 150 (+150% AP) every 2.64 seconds. It's one of the main reasons why Sona is so damn strong in the late game (along with her other auras).

only zhuleApr 13, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Crescendo is an engage/disengage tool, as is Tempo.

The issue isn't raw damage, it's usability. Because of its target priority and range, Hymm lets Sona poke in lane very easily. If Kai'sa tried to do the same with Rain, she'd put herself in range for counterattack, push the wave, and end up doing very little damage anyway since most of the bolts would have gone onto the creeps.

That "10-30 bonus damage" scales with AP and applies to everybody. If you're playing optimally, it increases your teams damage output by 150 (+150% AP) every 2.64 seconds. It's one of the main reasons why Sona is so damn strong in the late game (along with her other auras).

550 range for a 40% slow that lasts 2 seconds is a very poor engage/disengage tool. Crescendo works due to it's longer range and the fact that it's a hard CC meaning players can't just use a gap closer to negate the use of your slow.
The issue is 100% damage. A poke is only as useful as the pressure it puts onto the target(s). Sona's issue is that her poke doesn't pressure the lane, if you go in for the AA follow up you can apply some pressure BUT that means being within 550 range. At 550 range both champions's abilities are in range to trigger and both champions open themselves to counter attacks. 1 bolt from Sona is roughly equal to 1 bolt from Kai'sa, Sona has a slightly higher base number Kai'sa has a chance to hit more then one bolt onto her target, 1 to 1 Sona has better numbers anything else and Kai'sa comes out way ahead.
You are quoting best cases for Sona. Which i personally think is always the worst. If you had to give a percentage, how often are you really giving your entire team the buff? How often are they using it? How often are they using it on a target that matters (not a minion, not the full health tank)? Sona has a huge issue where her "power ceiling" is insanely high but you basically never see it because it's not fully in your power to control. You can't control where your teammates attack, you can't control how your teammates move, and if your team isn't tightly packed and all up those numbers drop REALLY quick.

Velzard of KozApr 12, 20186 votes

Because Kai'Sa need enemy to be isolated completely to fully ramp up dmg, much more than Sona. Like the abilities aren't really that similar don't get your point.

only zhuleApr 12, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Velzard of Koz,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=VixcUPEN,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2018-04-12T12:07:17.870+0000)

Because Kai'Sa need enemy to be isolated completely to fully ramp up dmg, much more than Sona. Like the abilities aren't really that similar don't get your point.

It was mostly just their to compare auto targeting abilities and how people raise a stink that Sona's Hymn auto targets, but i haven't heard a word about Kaisa 's Rain. it was also worth noting that Rain has a MUCH higher damage ceiling, such that a well used one can cause serious pressure during lane phase and no one is afraid of Sona bolts.

130xApr 12, 20184 votes

Kai' Sa is the kind of champion I dislike seeing. Her entire kit is all cheap OP abilities.

saltranApr 12, 20183 votes

What is the range difference between both skills? Just asking since I don't play either Sona or Kai'Sa

only zhuleApr 12, 20184 votes

{quoted}

What is the range difference between both skills? Just asking since I don't play either Sona or Kai'Sa

Kai'sa will hit units within a 600 range, Sona will hit at 850 range. Kai'sa will fire 6 (12 if upgrade is met) bolts, every bolt after the first will do 30% damage (bolts do 45 / 61.25 / 77.5 / 93.75 / 110 (+ 40% bonus AD) (+40% of ability power) physical damage). Kai's ability attempts to evenly split the number of bolts among the the number of targets within range. Sona fires two bolts that prioritize champions, if no champions they hit the closest targets.

AhristocatsApr 12, 20182 votes

Sona Q does not have 850 range

tooltip says so but her range has been stealth nerfed A LONG TIME ago and it's between 600 and 650 range now

Sire HippingtonApr 12, 20181 votes

you mean the bug that was fixed later on?

V4.17

Hymn of Valor Hymn of Valor
    Fixed a bug where the damage range was 700 instead of the intended 850.

Teridax68Apr 12, 20182 votes

Perhaps Kai'Sa's Q may be too strong right now, but at the end of the day it's still significantly more interactive than Sona's Q: Sona's Q prioritizes enemy champions over 850 units, and Power Chord's own bonus damage is targeted. By contrast, Kai'Sa's Q auto-targets all nearby enemies in a 600-range area, meaning that there's much more an opponent can do to either move out of range, or mitigate the damage by hiding near allies.

remakoroApr 12, 20181 votes

So in other words you are saying that you are not supposed to even try to come anywhere near Kaisa solo? How is that counter play?

Sona's deals a very humble dmg, not very mobile, yea she has speed up but we had tons of champions with speed ups or legit more movement speed normally than she has accelerated, and she is really squishy. She has only one CC and thats her ult. Which accidentaly is a skillshot and can be dodged. Her q is kinda useful in teamfights if your teammates can remember that they can aa enemies and have chance for that. Other than that its more of minor annoyance after 10 mins.

Kaisa on the other hand will fucking burst your ass with that shit. Instantly.

Counter for Sona's q is Sona herself. What is the counter for Kaisa? Dont go solo? Fuck thats amazing. So every time kaisa will try to split for example you will have to fight 3vs4? Cuz you need 2 people to at least TRY to stop her?

Spank the FoxApr 12, 20181 votes

{quoted}

So in other words you are saying that you are not supposed to even try to come anywhere near Kaisa solo? How is that counter play?

Sona's deals a very humble dmg, not very mobile, yea she has speed up but we had tons of champions with speed ups or legit more movement speed normally than she has accelerated, and she is really squishy. She has only one CC and thats her ult. Which accidentaly is a skillshot and can be dodged. Her q is kinda useful in teamfights if your teammates can remember that they can aa enemies and have chance for that. Other than that its more of minor annoyance after 10 mins.

Kaisa on the other hand will fucking burst your ass with that shit. Instantly.

Counter for Sona's q is Sona herself. What is the counter for Kaisa? Dont go solo? Fuck thats amazing. So every time kaisa will try to split for example you will have to fight 3vs4? Cuz you need 2 people to at least TRY to stop her?

Almost like different class of champions do different things :o

Sona is a teamfighter, Kai’Sa is mediocre one once they nerf her numbers down. Why are we aldo humbling “only one hard CC”. Crescendo may not be the game turner it used to be in Season 2 but an AoE 900 range stun is still an incredibly potent spell.

FutureCreatorApr 12, 20181 votes

She can't really use it to poke effectively in lane, due to the bolts targeting minions. Sona's bolts prioritize champs.

UltîmaApr 12, 20181 votes

My main issue with Kai'sa's Q is that it doesn't stop firing once she dies. I've seen that ability kill from beyond the grave on more than one occasion considering how hard it bursts in a 1v1 scenario.

TwinkieProApr 12, 20181 votes

Sona's range may not be as long as some others but that does not detract from it's power. Her Q is an incredibly strong poke mechanic in lane. 850 range means very little contest in terms of trading damage and usually affords free trades against certain bot lane comps. She's kept weak in terms of defense for this reason and because she scales very well.

Yes kai'sa is gonna have a higher damage ceiling, she's an ADC, Sona is classified as a support. You saying the support should do more damage? Kai'sa will get nerfed in terms of damage, needs to since it nearly doubles its damage at 100 bAD, but that doesn't mean it should do less damage than Sona. Seriously, it's just a bad comparison.

note: yes, it is 850 range, it was fixed.

only zhuleApr 12, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Sona's range may not be as long as some others but that does not detract from it's power. Her Q is an incredibly strong poke mechanic in lane. 850 range means very little contest in terms of trading damage and usually affords free trades against certain bot lane comps. She's kept weak in terms of defense for this reason and because she scales very well.

Yes kai'sa is gonna have a higher damage ceiling, she's an ADC, Sona is classified as a support. You saying the support should do more damage? Kai'sa will get nerfed in terms of damage, needs to since it nearly doubles its damage at 100 bAD, but that doesn't mean it should do less damage than Sona. Seriously, it's just a bad comparison.

note: yes, it is 850 range, it was fixed.

Amazing, another person who says "sona is fine" but doesn't actually ever play Sona. it's almost like people who don't play a champion don't understand the issues of playing that champion.

I picked you out to harp on because you clearly don't understand how weak Sona's Q is. 850 range sounds great, now if only it did enough damage to actually pressure ANYONE. If you want to take about Sona's actual damage output then you have to admit that 90% of it comes from getting within 550 range of your enemy. A range in which Kai'sa is also able to unload her damage, and that damage is going to be higher for multiple reasons.

You also appear to have missed the point trying to be made. If a weak version on an ability (auto targeting spell) is considered too strong on one character (Sona), making a slightly different but much stronger version of the ability on a different character (Kai'sa) is going to raise questions. Not the least of which is "is this old version too weak for the current version of the game"

TwinkieProApr 12, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=only zhule,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=VixcUPEN,comment-id=00090000,timestamp=2018-04-12T22:39:50.137+0000)

Amazing, another person who says "sona is fine" but doesn't actually ever play Sona. it's almost like people who don't play a champion don't understand the issues of playing that champion.

I picked you out to harp on because you clearly don't understand how weak Sona's Q is. 850 range sounds great, now if only it did enough damage to actually pressure ANYONE. If you want to take about Sona's actual damage output then you have to admit that 90% of it comes from getting within 550 range of your enemy. A range in which Kai'sa is also able to unload her damage, and that damage is going to be higher for multiple reasons.

You also appear to have missed the point trying to be made. If a weak version on an ability (auto targeting spell) is considered too strong on one character (Sona), making a slightly different but much stronger version of the ability on a different character (Kai'sa) is going to raise questions. Not the least of which is "is this old version too weak for the current version of the game"

Judging someone for not playing a champ is sad and disrespectful as hell. You don't play kai'sa so clearly I should disregard everything you talk about. These are called straw man arguments and is you belittling people regardless of how well formed their argument is. Your post doesn't even warrant a debate, all you want to do is argue and put people down. Get over yourself.

only zhuleApr 13, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Judging someone for not playing a champ is sad and disrespectful as hell. You don't play kai'sa so clearly I should disregard everything you talk about. These are called straw man arguments and is you belittling people regardless of how well formed their argument is. Your post doesn't even warrant a debate, all you want to do is argue and put people down. Get over yourself.

i don't see it as disrespectful. Arguing the power or weakness of a champion you don't play comes off as more disrespectful to me. If you have no experience with a champion then how can you understand the issues that come with playing them? You can only judge from the experience of playing against them. There are champions i have never played and likely never will, i try my best not to argue about how strong or weak they are because i don't have the experience to judge that fairly.

You are right i don't play Kai'sa, guess it's a good thing my argument isn't about how strong or weak she is, but rather about how her auto target ability seems to take very little of her power budget. While the same basic concept on Sona takes a very large chunk of her apparent power budget.

TwinkieProApr 13, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=only zhule,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=VixcUPEN,comment-id=0009000000000000,timestamp=2018-04-13T00:41:17.929+0000) You are right i don't play Kai'sa, guess it's a good thing my argument isn't about how strong or weak she is, but rather about how her auto target ability seems to take very little of her power budget. While the same basic concept on Sona takes a very large chunk of her apparent power budget.

That doesn't change how your argument works in the slightest, my argument was the same. You're delusional.