Why exactly did people want Elise buffed so badly?

HateDaddy·Jul 27, 2015·6 votes·630 views

Her gameplay pattern isn't much different than what it was when she was dominating the jungle in season 3 and season 4. She's legit the AP version of Lee Sin. She's extremely oppressive to other junglers, her ganks are always good. She's good at counter ganking, she's good in counter ganks, she's good at all stages of the game and her general play pattern is frustrating as shit. She lands an E and you're dead. She's going to take 70% of your HP by herself. She also has the power to show up in the enemy jungler's jungle at any point and kill them. There was a reason she was nerfed so god damned hard in the first place and you buffed her and kept her play pattern the same, why exactly are people surprised she's literaly winning 55% of her games in diamond+?

27 Comments

EndlessSorcererJul 27, 20155 votes

They wanted her buffed because she was in a very bad place. I believe she was at around a 44-45% win-rate before the changes.

The changes may potentially have overshot the mark, but at least she's playable now. They can tune her numbers a bit to prevent her from overwhelming other junglers when they have had time to gather more data.

Also, the people who wanted Elise to be buffed and the people who are complaining about her being overpowered after different vocal minorities.

No one who understands how the buffs changed her are surprised; it's just that a different vocal minority has started complaining.

HateDaddyJul 27, 20154 votes

{quoted}

They wanted her buffed because she was in a very bad place. I believe she was at around a 44-45% win-rate before the changes.

The changes may potentially have overshot the mark, but at least she's playable now. They can tune her numbers a bit to prevent her from overwhelming other junglers when they have had time to gather more data.

Also, the people who wanted Elise to be buffed and the people who are complaining about her being overpowered after different vocal minorities.

No one who understands how the buffs changed her are surprised; it's just that a different vocal minority has started complaining.

You're missing the point, how much can you tune her at this point when her play style is legit the same? It's going to either be she slowly gets killed again patch after patch or she dies in one patch with massive nerfs.

Runeglaive isn't even necessary on her either, you can just build cinderhulk and sorcs/guise for damage. She clears fine either way and her damage will be better with Sorcs/guise.

I've pretty much been saying that she needs a playstyle change because her current play style is terrible to play against if the Elise player is good. I could spend hours talkig about cool changes I would love to see to her but that's a different topic entirely. It's like the same people who want Syndra buffed (and she still gets played competitively lol). Buffing her without significant power shifts or gameplay patten changes just revert her to her extremely oppressive play style.

EndlessSorcererJul 27, 20152 votes

In order:

Riot's balance team does do that occasionally. Not a fan of ineffective nerfs followed by gutting the champion without reverting the ineffective nerfs, but I'm optimistic (perhaps blindly, but whatever).

I never said anything regarding Runeglaive. I perfer to build Skirmisher+Cinderhulk, Sorcerer Shoes, and Haunting Guise since I'd rather play her as a bruiser than as an assassin/mage.

She's still pretty new so I doubt they are going to get her a substantial kit rework. I'll avoid commenting on her playstyle beyond that.

Vistha KaiJul 27, 20152 votes

She lands a single target, slow moving and predictable skillshot and you're dead.

FTFY

Did I mention Elise doesn't have any late game presence?

HateDaddyJul 27, 20155 votes

[{quoted}](name=Vistha Kai,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Viv7rocb,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2015-07-27T20:20:39.146+0000)

FTFY

Did I mention Elise doesn't have any late game presence?

Yeah, it's definitely a terrible skillshot, which is why she never dominated the jungle in season 3 and season 4. Good players land skill shots, please stop pretending otherwise.

And she has a fantastic late game presence. You siege with her, spam Es and kill anything it lands on. Or you set up vision control, and completely destroy anyone who tries to contest vision. Her damage is always relevant because of both a max% HP and missing % HP spell in one ability. I'm sorry most low elo players are lost on some deeper in game mechanics as mentioned above but she is extremely powerful late game.

Vistha KaiJul 27, 20152 votes

You are right.

Elise is a great champion. Too bad Sejuani can do exactly same thing as Elise, but cheaper and while building full tank.

HateDaddyJul 27, 20153 votes

[{quoted}](name=Vistha Kai,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Viv7rocb,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2015-07-27T20:33:48.638+0000)

You are right.

Elise is a great champion. Too bad Sejuani can do exactly same thing as Elise, but cheaper and while building full tank.

Yeah, again, it's why Elise was never played or the most dominant jungler for 2 seasons. What was I thinking? Gut Sej

AbyssphereJul 27, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Yeah, it's definitely a terrible skillshot, which is why she never dominated the jungle in season 3 and season 4. Good players land skill shots, please stop pretending otherwise.

And she has a fantastic late game presence. You siege with her, spam Es and kill anything it lands on. Or you set up vision control, and completely destroy anyone who tries to contest vision. Her damage is always relevant because of both a max% HP and missing % HP spell in one ability. I'm sorry most low elo players are lost on some deeper in game mechanics as mentioned above but she is extremely powerful late game.

I don't get how you can claim she has a massive presence late. No she's not completely incompetent but her win rate drops continuously (to sub-50%) throughout the game so there is a clear, gradual drop off.

In her current state she's so powerful that in the late game she's still decent, but when she's tuned so that she's not the single most powerful person on the map for the first 25 minutes, that won't be the case. Her late game has always been abusable - pros have always talked about how she gets outscaled by the enemy jungler.

HateDaddyJul 27, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I don't get how you can claim she has a massive presence late. No she's not completely incompetent but her win rate drops continuously (to sub-50%) throughout the game so there is a clear, gradual drop off.

In her current state she's so powerful that in the late game she's still decent, but when she's tuned so that she's not the single most powerful person on the map for the first 25 minutes, that won't be the case. Her late game has always been abusable - pros have always talked about how she gets outscaled by the enemy jungler.

It depends on who the jungler is. Certainly she's not on the level of a late game Sej, Amumu, Hecarim, etc. but she's still very good late game because of pick potential, high single target damage and one of the things that's often forgotten about, objective control. She's one of the best objective securing champions in the game short of Cho, Nunu and Kha'Zix. She's super strong early and mid and solid late, but she's not some scrub either.

AbyssphereJul 27, 20151 votes

{quoted}

It depends on who the jungler is. Certainly she's not on the level of a late game Sej, Amumu, Hecarim, etc. but she's still very good late game because of pick potential, high single target damage and one of the things that's often forgotten about, objective control. She's one of the best objective securing champions in the game short of Cho, Nunu and Kha'Zix. She's super strong early and mid and solid late, but she's not some scrub either.

Yeah I wouldn't say she's useless or anything, it's just that when I think of champions that are a lot less threatening late, few people come to mind before Elise. In large part that's currently because well, even if she's strong after 40 minutes she is not the monster she was at 5 minutes. However, I do think that when she gets the toning down she needs, her power curve will be a bit more... fair.

Honestly what I really want is for them to just revert the Cocoon buff. The spiderling stuff was really needed to make her less inept later on/justify building damage on her (full tank Elise only exists if her bases are worth abusing, I don't like it) and to at least some degree I think it is necessary for Cocoon to be a one-point wonder, but it's the 1.6 second stun duration that makes her capable of dueling every other jungler in the game at level 1, and makes her ganks probably the best there are. It's too much.

Hasztalan2Jul 27, 20151 votes

{quoted}

stuff your wrote

POintless sadly. The problem with Elise kit is the same as Jayce or Nida. 2 much stuff used in it, if it reaches the useable level it'll become instnat broken either by scalings or base damages. Elise is no exception, when here base damages were good everyone used her as fulltank, when here scalings were okay (post-1st buff she received after her debut) everyone abused her at midlane.

i think she needs some kind of major Change. Her W is completely illogical , a spider who spawns another spider when she already has spiders which explodes (?!!?!?) OR gives her attack speed when spiders are already fast, jumps in your face and attacks you? ugh they could remove that. Simplify Neurotoxin into 1 spell and she could be reworked into a 4 ability Champ.

AbyssphereJul 27, 20151 votes

{quoted}

POintless sadly. The problem with kit is the same as Jayce or Nida. 2 much stuff used in it, if it reaches the useable level it'll become instnat broken either by scalings or base damages. Elise is no exception, when here base damages were good everyone used her as fulltank, when here scalings were okay (post-1st buff she received after her debut) everyone abused her at midlane.

i think she needs some kind of major Change. Her W is completely illogical , a spider who spawns another spider when she already has spiders which explodes (?!!?!?) OR gives her attack speed when spiders are already fast, jumps in your face and attacks you? ugh they could remove that. Simplify Neurotoxin into 1 spell and she could be reworked into a 4 ability Champ.

I don't agree. Jayce is pretty much fine right now - perfectly usable but not broken. Nidalee is irritating but is never unusable, yet rarely broken (she is probably overpowered right now but was in a perfectly fine state before she was pushed into the jungle). Elise is likely capable of finding a balanced position too.

Hasztalan2Jul 28, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I don't agree. Jayce is pretty much fine right now - perfectly usable but not broken. Nidalee is irritating but is never unusable, yet rarely broken (she is probably overpowered right now but was in a perfectly fine state before she was pushed into the jungle). Elise is likely capable of finding a balanced position too.

Jayce is not fine, after his last W nerfs he is simply weak. He is a champ who has 30 minutes build time for a nothing special lategame -- theere are many champs who has a lot more value and Jayce already disappeared from both soloQ and comp picks pretty much.

AbyssphereJul 28, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Jayce is not fine, after his last W nerfs he is simply weak. He is a champ who has 30 minutes build time for a nothing special lategame -- theere are many champs who has a lot more value and Jayce already disappeared from both soloQ and comp picks pretty much.

Jayce had a huge resurgence in pro play after they changed him so that he had 6 ranks in his ultimates. He is in a perfectly good spot.

Even if he isn't in the best spot he's at least in a much better position than Elise was prior to her buffs. As someone who likes Elise I'd be more than happy for her to be as good as Jayce is right now.

Hasztalan2Jul 28, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Jayce had a huge resurgence in pro play after they changed him so that he had 6 ranks in his ultimates. He is in a perfectly good spot.

Even if he isn't in the best spot he's at least in a much better position than Elise was prior to her buffs. As someone who likes Elise I'd be more than happy for her to be as good as Jayce is right now.

Well depends what we call good spot as Jayce is clearly inferior now w/e. For elise tho that'd be stil a clear improvement.

BeersteinJul 27, 20152 votes

Honestly she was in a terrible place, it was mostly runeglaive that changed her viability, not the buffs. Either way I'd give people time to adapt before tweaking her as I think her win rate is partially coming from old Elise players that know her mechanics well facing players that aren't used to dealing with her (or haven't in a long time) and are often falling victim to her spider form Q burst which they don't expect.

EndlessSorcererJul 27, 20151 votes

How is Runeglaive on her anyways? I'd imagine it helps her burst down targets, but it would probably leave you pretty squishy.

I've been getting Cinderhulk since I prefer the durability and rely on magic penetration (i.e. item 3020 item 3136 early, possibly item 3001 item 3135 later) for my damage.

BeersteinJul 27, 20151 votes

{quoted}

How is Runeglaive on her anyways? I'd imagine it helps her burst down targets, but it would probably leave you pretty squishy.

I've been getting Cinderhulk since I prefer the durability and rely on magic penetration (i.e. early, possibly later) for my damage.

It's mostly the fact that the consistent bursts in the jungle give her the clear speed she needs. My first items after are usually sorc shoes, liandrys, and rylais (to proc liandrys and add defense) Abyssal would usually come next. I watched a challenger play her yesterday and was pleasantly surprised to see him build in that exact order. Of course there may be minor tweaks based on enemy teams.

The best way to balance her out a bit more evenly would probably involve making the runeglaive do a bit less to champions than it does to minions, it'd also curb the laners that try to use it. (If any still do) Not sure what kind of impact it'd have on the other JGs that use it though, people seem to be complaining about all of them though. I'd still be hesitant to nerf her so fast though as she's come back into the scene very rapidly with old mains pulling her back out vs people that aren't used to her.

Crowe StalkerJul 27, 20151 votes

{quoted}

The best way to balance her out a bit more evenly would probably involve making the runeglaive do a bit less to champions than it does to minions, **it'd also curb the laners that try to use it. **

What Laners that use it? Ever since it got nerfed it's a weaker and less desirable item 3025 for PVE or item 3100 for PVP. Runeglaive isn't a problem anymore and you shouldn't nerf an item because one champion does well with it, you nerf the Champion first.

EndlessSorcererJul 27, 20151 votes

Doesn't it already do less champion than to minions (at least, to the primary target).

I thought they changed it to only proc the AoE on minions but to double the damage or ratio (I can't remember if base AD is included) against the primary target.

Dr PoroJul 27, 20151 votes

[deleted]

BeersteinJul 27, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dr Poro,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Viv7rocb,comment-id=00020001,timestamp=2015-07-27T20:37:46.050+0000)

Her highest winrate build uses cinderhulk isntead of RG, though.

Where you get this from? When I look at it every MMR gets higher win rates with RG

http://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/items/elise/diamond

HateDaddyJul 27, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Where you get this from? When I look at it every MMR gets higher win rates with RG

http://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/items/elise/diamond

Either or is fine, RG is basically good if you're ahead or snowballing. Cinderhulk is a safer option since it grants you more durability and your clear speed is still good with it. I suspect when she gets spammed in pro play, they won't go RG because they prefer more durability on her, but it's still a decent option of you're ahead. It adds more burst to her rotation but it's not necessary either.

DreadlocksJul 27, 20152 votes

Like everyone has kinda already said, she needed freaking buffs.. Aside from that, I always felt the same way as you. That is, Shes practically the AP version of Lee Sin. Lee Sin is fun to play, so is Elise.

Only Play DariusJul 27, 20151 votes

Her E is actually extremely hard to land during ganks because minions like to get in the way. And if she mispositions in a gank she's dead because she is so insanely squishy.

HateDaddyJul 27, 20153 votes

[{quoted}](name=Jelly Mac,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Viv7rocb,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2015-07-27T20:37:12.949+0000)

Her E is actually extremely hard to land during ganks because minions like to get in the way. And if she mispositions in a gank she's dead because she is so insanely squishy.

Good Elise players just flank or use E to get into position in spider form, then slow with ranged AA red buff slows and wait for you to use your mobility spell (and if you elect to try and juggle minions to block her stun she just human Qs/Ws R/Q/W and takes 70% of your HP) then throw out human E. You either flash or die, then she comes back. And she's incredibly good at tower diving because of spiderlings and spider form E.

AbyssphereJul 27, 20151 votes

Well the thing is, she was a lot worse than Lee Sin. I can understand not wanting her to be over the top (I love her - don't want her anywhere near as good as she is right now) but if she's the AP Lee Sin then she at least deserves to be as strong as he is. And she really wasn't.