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Alternative to jungling?

Better Jungler··41 votes·3,216 views

Tons of complaint posts popping up about level 3 jungle ganks, or jungle not needing to farm as much as other lanes, or too much "uptime" for junglers.

Theres no fix for this other than a major jungle update. So what do you guys want? Jungle cant be the role that just chills away from all the enemies, and allies in the jungle. Laners get to fight opponents for the first 15 minutes of the game, but want junglers to stop ganking so early.. Sorry gromp isn't nearly that fun to kill repeatedly.

Honestly what would be an acceptable fix to this?

Make the camps do more damage? Get ready for 1000 invades looking for low health junglers. Make camps respawn faster? Lower exp rates so junglers have to farm more? Better lose that notion of jungler ganks, we busy farming Shyvana . How about a gank lock so junglers cant gank till laning phase is over? Expect a ton of autofilled jungles because thatd be sooo boring.

My only honest suggestions for jungle right now (and they don't address these concerns, is to make herald and dragon MUCH MUCH harder to solo. That way level 3 WW isnt getting dragon at 4 minutes into the game giving all his laners an advantage.

Also, buff the towers so I cant push them down after my first successful gank. Give them a ton of armor till games average level is 8 ish.

One of the major glaring issues I see while jungling, and again its not really solvable without a MAJOR rehaul, is the junglers ability to gank from anywhere. The movement speed creep thats been occuring over the last few seasons allows us to sprint into lane on most champions, and no matter how many wards you put down, I can find a way to get to you before you realize im there. (most often this is going by the enemy raptors behind your opponent.

Also, I'm fairly certain 90% of these jg complaints are stemming from qtpie and hashinshin.

134 Comments

ForFoxSakes22 votes

If dragon and RH cant be soloed that means theres even less for junglers to do, so rather than going for the sneak kill its going to be a gank. Counterproductive to a "gank solution".

People just hate ganks because they dont like to die or be set behind at no fault of their own, but from another player interfering, on top of the extreme damage out right now a gank and going back means your tower is gone. Buffing towers will indirectly alleviate ganking rewards

Better Jungler6 votes

towers is a great idea as well. ill add that in.

There is one problem I notice while ganking.. but again, I dont see a fix for it. (editted into main post.)

HaIlMonitor17 votes

In my opinion. And this is as a jungle main that loved season 5 style stuff.

  • Make jungle camps worth less, but have them spawn faster so you get the same gold as long as you are clearing. This should stop the never ending ganks because they would have to be at camps more or fall farther beind.

  • Bring back a scaling item like Devour in jungle. It doesn't need to be infinite, but one that has an actual power spike.

  • Stop watch probably has to go as a free item because it can make tower dives a lot safer, as well as just make tower at low levels punish people harder. It is aweful watching a mage get 3 shot by them, and seeing a tank survive 5 or 6 at the same levels

Better Jungler2 votes

I dont remember if it was season 5 or 6.. but one of those I nearly quit league because of how shitty the jungle was.

I don't mind the idea of farming more often. In my games I occassionally find myself out of stuff to do. Lanes too risky to push, dragons down, heralds either not up, or enemy jungles near that side of the map, all my camps are clear. In norms, this is when I make stupid plays like diving towers and stuff, In ranked I usually back and spend and by that time a camp is back up.

Again though, I keep addressing this in each post. We will bring back the shyvana and udyr and master yi farm style jungle that was SOOOO HATED when it was prevalent.

Do you remember junglers loading up, and farming until literally like 30 minutes into the game, getting all their stacks on that stupid little wolf thing, then dominating the game? It was one of the worst metas to ever hit league, and only lasted a season before they removed that item, gave jg a higher spawn time, and some catch up xp so they'd gank more often.

HaIlMonitor2 votes

Do you remember junglers loading up, and farming until literally like 30 minutes into the game, getting all their stacks on that stupid little wolf thing, then dominating the game? It was one of the worst metas to ever hit league, and only lasted a season before they removed that item, gave jg a higher spawn time, and some catch up xp so they'd gank more often.

It was about 15 and we still have that item in the game, the infinite part was what made it op not the effects. item 3124

Better Jungler1 votes

Disagree, I remember it being near the 25 minute mark if you were on time, more likely, with any setbacks it'd be around 32 ish.

I'm not arguing whether the item was op or not, I could care less. I'm talking about its effect on jungle ganks. They were non-existent for the first 60% of the game. because time was more valuable spent farming. Laners HATED not having a jungle to help them, and reported their junglers ALL THE TIME for "Afk farming."

Today we're seeing the opposite. Time ganking is more valuable than farming, but less extreme.

so laners are PISSED that theres constant jungle pressure, so they cry on boards about how broken jungles are.

HaIlMonitor2 votes

Regardless what it comes down to is bad laners wanting their hand held. Right now if I pick shyv I expect my lanes to lose because I wont be ganking as much. I have always felt laners want junglers to walk in stun lock, deal 99% damage, with a stun at the end, then let them last hit.

Right now its sad at how people can't trade properly anymore so they just want a junglers help.

Salson3 votes

Tbh the main problem with Devourer was it's on-hit synergy.

It's not that it gave Junglers good scaling, it's that it gave to the worst and lowest Junglers MasterYi XinZhao Udyr Warwick (pre-rework)

HaIlMonitor2 votes

It was basically just item 3124 but didnt need to build up. The point though of that item, outside of laners QQing for the whole season, was that if you played someone like Vi, Lee, Elise, Kha who were the gank junglers at the time you had to actually get the game rolling before the 20 or so minute power spike. Whether that was dueling and killing the enemy jungler, ganking, or trying to keep a solid pressure you could win. I will admit it was too strong with infinite scaling, but if it was a weak item like it is now, but over time turned into a weaker rage blade I wouldn't really see the problem.

Rexxiee8 votes

Theres a very easy fix to the current jungle state actually.

Lower camps exp and gold but lower their spawn time by a bit, now if you camp a lane you actually lose potential farm so its riskier.

Remove catchup exp, pretty self explainatory.

And make it so buff camps do more damage early game so if they want to double buff gank you atleast they wont be full health so its riskier agian.

Better Jungler2 votes

sorry i think theres a typo here?

Lower camp xp and gold,

lower spawn time,

remove catch up xp.

So we get less experience for monsters that spawn less often, and get no catch up xp? Then make those low xp, low gold, jungle creatures do MORE damage so that we're less healthy?

I can't imagine you meant it like that.

Edit: OH i think I see what you mean. Less time for the jungle camp to respawn. SO they're up more often but worth less. I addressed this suggestion in the original post. If this were to occur we would see the return of farming jungles. Which means less/no ganks. We saw this in s4 and s5 with that stupid wolf we had to farm up for the attack speed jungle item. Shyvana and udyr would farm till 40 minutes, then auto carry

Jerry SeinfeId5 votes

they most likely meant they spawn more often.

"lower their spawn time" is pretty obviously referring to lower respawn times.

Prozzak7 votes

I didn't realise jungle was such a problem. And really people are complaining about level 3 ganks? I remember when level 2 ganks were the norm. Wonder what people would complain about then.

90% of the issues with jungle come from laners not properly keeping themselves safe. It really is that simple. League has devolved in this aspect majorly. I remember when it used to be that laners actually considered getting a gank as a bonus because that is what it should be seen as. Nowadays though? I will routinely have 2 lanes pinging needing assistance before the 4 minute mark. Like really? Control your lane yourself. Ward. Actually back off of the damn creep wave if you see someone coming to gank you instead of mass pinging and staying pushed up just to die. Losing one wave isn't the end of the world. The only time you have an actual complaint is if you are getting dove over and over and your jungle is doing nothing anywhere on the map. If you die outside of your tower, it is your fault. Even under your own can be your fault if you stay there really low while their jungle is around.

Jungle is not the problem, laners mindsets are.

As for towers, yeah, those need a major overhaul so that they do not die so quickly.

Better Jungler4 votes

Wonder what people would complain about then.

level 2 ganks:P

People will always find a way to blame the jg for their own shortcomings.

WolfChases7 votes

Jungle has more impact not because junglers are Op, not because of the XP, not because of the ganking paths and whatsoever. Jungle has more impact because current state of the game is snowbally. Lets take a look at season 5 foe example? You could get ganked, killed and still catch up if you are good and come out victorious. In this state of the game, you are fcked up after a single succesfull gank. Not because jungle is op but because your opponent will wreck you and take your turret which means = lost lane.

It isnt jungle, its any roam actually. If mid laner roams top and kill enemy top laner its all the same.

In order to fix that, Riot doesn't have to nerf or change jungle bit instead, to buff objectives.

  • buff turrets

  • buff dragon (no jungler should be able to solo drake before he finishes his jungle item.

  • buff heralds damage. Herald is nothing but a wall of meat that deals no damage but has tons of hp.

Thats all.

Disulfiram1 votes

{quoted}

  • buff heralds damage. Herald is nothing but a wall of meat that deals no damage but has tons of hp.

And this isn't actually true if you just move around it... hell, it turns around so slowly that I can get the backstab bonus damage while soloing it with anyone, even Fiddlesticks

WolfChases2 votes

Exactly. Herald is so easy to solo with every single jungle champion yet it gives you a lot once you captire the eye. You can get 2 turrets if you take it rarly, and even inhibitor if your top managed to take down top tier 1 turret. Herald should be a challenge. There should be at least 2 people to take him down, 3 people if you want to rush it.

Do tou remember the time when you actually had to switch aggro when fighting early drake in order to survive? Nope, you can solo it lvl 3-4 with any fighter and traditional jungler right now.

Diamond2Kappa4 votes

My only honest suggestions for jungle right now (and they don't address these concerns, is to make herald and dragon MUCH MUCH harder to solo.

imo gut jungle, i dont wanna lose every game because my jungler gets outjungled xd

Better Jungler27 votes

"Gut jungle" how?

Thats not helpful.

EVERY complaint post right now says "GUT JUNGLE ITS OP (IPlayTooAggressiveAndGetPunished)"

but no one has a suggestion on how to "Gut" jungle.

ForFoxSakes9 votes

it's already been gutted multiple times which is part of the problem

Right now the jungler needs to gank to get kills/assists to get ahead because straight farming means the jungler will fall behind to solo laners by the 2nd clear which makes it even harder to gank a solo laner. There's problems all over the map but everyone just blames the jungle for it

Prozzak5 votes

Ehhhhh this is false. Junglers will not fall behind that hard if they are only farming. In fact I can routinely keep up in farm by just farming as a jungle. The problem is that laners do not even try to keep themselves safe because "jungle is too op so why bother". If they actually tried to stay safe than maybe they would realise the other team doesn't get ganks off as easy.

Diamond2Kappa4 votes

Im just the customer tho, I say "gut jungle" and the design team figures out the "how" hehe

Better Jungler12 votes

I hope you stub your toe.

Real bad.

Then have a nice easy recovery...

Then step on a lego.

Diamond2Kappa2 votes

Jungle main spotted imo, isnt it true what I said? There are people getting paid for it, the customer just has to give feedback :]

Better Jungler9 votes

Couldnt tell by the name?

Feedback shouldnt be

"THIS IS SHIT FIX IT"

because then you get NO RIGHT to complain when the next update isnt what you expected. Instead you should give helpful critique and suggestions to drive the game in a direction you want it to go.

Diamond2Kappa3 votes

Jungle has too much impact, lower it. Thats what people are saying, or should we be more specific than that?

Better Jungler6 votes

thats not specific at all..

Lets do this slow. take a 3 second pause at every period.

What. About. Jungle. Has. Too. Much. Impact?

... (9 second pause to gather your thoughts)

What. Are. Your. Suggestions. To. make. Jungle. Less. Impactful.

... (9 second pause to formulate a response)

Diamond2Kappa4 votes

Isnt that obvious? https://i.gyazo.com/d31fd94873eb1c3f21e6c4667faee3fb.png literally all high tier junglers are high tier because they can spam ganks starting level 2. Almost every game I play is decided by what jungler has more impact in the first 10 minutes, thats my feedback. Just make them farm more or something.

Crystalysk12 votes

Shyvana and Evelynn spamming ganks at level 2? I must have played a different game.

Diamond2Kappa2 votes

Shyv isnt meta and Eve does, yes.

Crystalysk6 votes

Evelynn players barely gank pre 6 unless enemies are really overextending and by overextend i mean they are almost diving. Shyvana isn't meta? But your pic shows the opposite.

Diamond2Kappa1 votes

Idk about you but I see Eves gank a lot pre 6 with the charm. When I look for some random korean Eve game, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NocqMuJKfIQ comes up and she has 2 kills pre 6.

And idk about Shyv, her win rate in gold+ is 53% and in diamond+ its lower than 51% so that makes it seem like spam ganking is more important.

Crystalysk8 votes

I didn't say she doesn't gank at all, i said she barely ganks before 6. And she ganked 2 times top because Darius isn't respecting and pushing without flash and didn't even back even if he was warned by teammates with multiple pings. You have to take count of context too.

HaIlMonitor5 votes

Shyv isnt meta??? Do you see she is the second most played champ in that list????

Diamond2Kappa1 votes

And idk about Shyv, her win rate in gold+ is 53% and in diamond+ its lower than 51% so that makes it seem like spam ganking is more important.

HaIlMonitor5 votes

More play = lower win rate... still dont get your point.

Crystalysk23 votes

People play top and feed first blood at 3:00 everygame, come here complaining but don't even think that maybe it's their fault for feeding first blood every game. But people think it's easier to say "Jungle is OP" than admitting they are making mistakes. It's basically Hashinshin's syndrome: i overextend at 2:40 even if i know i'm going to get ganked, proceed to die and rant.

Marshbouy7 votes

Too accurate TBH.

Diamond2Kappa4 votes

I dont even play top tho lel, jungle objectively has too much impact but aight :]

Crystalysk7 votes

Have i ever said you play top lane? Are you ok, bud?

Diamond2Kappa3 votes

People play top and feed first blood at 3:00 everygame, come here complaining but don't even think that maybe it's their fault for feeding first blood every game. But people think it's easier to say "Jungle is OP"

?

i make those posts too, so.. xd

Crystalysk12 votes

And that's why Boards aren't taken seriously.

Prozzak6 votes

Jungle has "too much impact" because laners allow jungle to have so much impact. They would rather die than ward properly and actually backing off when they see the gank incoming. Every game I ping out multiple incoming ganks to my lane before they happen because I won't get there in time and they ignore it to die. Laners take very little responsibility towards their own deaths compared to what they used to.

Diamond2Kappa3 votes

Thats.. pretty hard to prove. Right now the higher impact jungler literally wins 95% of the time in my games. Feels like I have 0 impact until I feel forced to https://i.gyazo.com/de8952e8b9d5767e2905f7ce2b826565.png play jungle myself...

Prozzak3 votes

That shows nothing to disprove what I said. Of course if someone does what you show there they are likely to win. It doesn't show anything about how they did that though. If laners don't bother to ward I think junglers should be able to do that easily, but that would no be the fault of the jungle being op. It would be the fault of the laners doing nothing to minimize the risk from ganks.

Diamond2Kappa3 votes

Well most people agree that jungle and bot lane have too much power atm. Blaming the entire playerbase for not warding is p hard to prove like I said.

Slythion3 votes

Idk why no one has talked about catchup xp. Imo, that's the real reason why junglers have been free to gank 24/7 vs someone who powerfarms. Forget gutting spawn rates or damage, they just need to reduce the catchup xp rate so that there's actually a meaningful and clear difference between a powerfarming jungler vs. a permagank jungler.

Better Jungler4 votes

Catch up xp was addressed at the change of the season. I believe in patch 7.22. They made it to where large monsters gave a tiny bit more catch up xp, but lowered the catchup xp substantially EVERYWHERE elese in jungle.

Iffy Jarl2 votes

Theres only like a few select champs with the sustain necessary to solo a drag pre 6 not to mention it takes them a long time to do it and they won't be finishing it with full health meaning in order for a Warwick Tryndamere Aatrox to solo a drag they need a slod amount of time alone with it and they risk the enemy jungle walking up killing them and the drag, and if you're against a champ who can solo drag pre 6 then why aren't you making warding it at all times a priority, I always get a control ward first back and place it in the pit problem solved.

Ratpie2 votes

This^^ it really isn't that hard to counter early dragon.

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