I feel like everything does TOO much damage.

Better Jungler·Oct 31, 2017·148 votes·8,193 views

THIS ISNT A SALT POST. Just looking for others opinions.

I've been playing since season 2 or so... It seems like in the last few seasons overall damage has been steadily climbing to where it is now where everything feels like it does too much damage. If we were to trim all the damage by 5-10% I honestly think it'd improve the fights a bit more. Players would have a chance to react and not get completely blown up. Adc's wouldn't shred tanks, syndra wouldnt 100-0 squishies.. Veigar and nasus would become one shot gods a few minutes later.

The strange part is that I don't feel like any specific type of damage is climbing faster than the others. Everything is just going up at the same time, about the same rate (Ignoring the statistical outliers like ardent censer and full ap galio.) I remember scoffing at the hextech gunblade proc, but now if an Akali hits me with it I see a chunk of my health disappear. Again this isnt necessarily a bad thing. just an observation.

147 Comments

PennsOct 31, 201731 votes

so burst mages and assassins cant oneshot people anymore because "damage creep"

what do they do? lul

Rıots Bad ClientOct 31, 201761 votes

Go into enemy teams, and prank the adc.

And when the adc retaliates. they shout "Just a prank, bro"

the weeabooOct 31, 201710 votes

How about not one shot, just... do burst. Like their supposed to?

parrot6632Oct 31, 201729 votes

burst is useless if it doesn't oneshot

IcyPepperOct 31, 201720 votes

Not a very tactical thought.

Votable JesterOct 31, 20175 votes

But true considering how somehow basically everyone except mid-laners can heal back up fairly quickly.

IcyPepperOct 31, 201716 votes

Burst shouldn't 100-0 someone (unless far ahead, obvious), but it should be able to finish off opponents quicker than sustained damage can.

Poke your opponents or weaken them, and then burst for the kill. It's why it's a team game, not just a series of 1v1's.

Votable JesterOct 31, 20174 votes

Veigar and Syndra shouldn't be able to 100-0 someone? Why play them then when Cass or Ryze could easily kill before the next rotation is up, and still have all their damage available for the next target?

IcyPepperOct 31, 201710 votes

Hm, I used the wrong wording. Assuming Syndra and Veigar land everything, being able to 100-0 isn't inherently bad.

Just not literally one-shot is what we were originally discussing. That slip-up is my fault.

Votable JesterNov 1, 20172 votes

Well yes of course one-shots aren't fun. 100-0s should be allowed in some circumstances (and should require some skill/combo to be performed).

IcyPepperNov 1, 20174 votes

Then we're in agreement.

It was my incorrect terminology that was askew.

Votable JesterNov 1, 20173 votes

Yup it seems we do agree. Don't get why you were downvoted there.

IcyPepperNov 1, 20173 votes

People will have differences in opinions. We're dealing with a touchy subject, mind. Way too subjective to deal with in absolutes.

Votable JesterNov 1, 20172 votes

I meant you got downvoted when you said we are in agreement. I just voted it back up because that seemed like a stupid comment to have downvoted (how could they disagree that we agree?).

PB4UAMEOct 31, 20172 votes

Realisticlly, no. Seasins 1-5 they were blanced around 70-0 or 80-0ing people. As viegar, you had to land a stun and Q + W once or twice before they were low enough for you to all in with ignite and ult to kill them.

Votable JesterOct 31, 20172 votes

I remember playing Veigar a bit, he'd 100-0 mages at least (he had that enemy AP scaling back then). Once they changed it to not be anti-mage, it makes sense that it would 100-0 any squishy if he's even or slightly ahead and they haven't built any mr.

PB4UAMENov 1, 20172 votes

He'd do it when fed, if they didn't get defensive items as well. Remember, the meta was to get two solid defensive items, or at the very least 1 in with your build, even as a hyper carry. Lategame, most carries had either BV or GA, or both, along with a QSS if the other team had a lot of CC, and Zhonyas for AP mages to escape combos.

You had to blow their defenses, and poke them a bit first, and then you could full combo them and 100-0 them when they had no defenses up.

PB4UAMEOct 31, 20179 votes

Oh ya totally, nothing like zoning, forcing backs, creating damage threat, weakening for % missing hp abilities and executes, blowing defensive spells and abilities, forcing heals/shields and disengage also has absolutely no value.

There is also no such thing as chip damage, or non-regeneratable damage within certain timewindows as well, nor are there any psychological factors at play, and morale is utterly non-existent.

All that matters is the pro LC$ BIGPLAY$, and 100-0s in literally a tenth of a second. If your kill counter does not immediately go up, then burst is entirely, and utterly useless and has no place in the game unless it is uncounterable, unreactable true 100-0 one shots.

SqueyOct 31, 20179 votes

damage creep is up but it seems like more of a flat value. Thats why champions designed to burst either get ahead and destroy or are even and get out damage by everyone else. Thats because even sustained damage is more bursty now. And with the inclusion of shield and damage reduction items. Sustained damage is going to always out perform burst champions.

Vlad never used to 1 combo people till full build and even then he had to be going with a very offensive build. But then item buffs and bad reworks have made him a burst mage on top of good sustained damage.

Lux used to be love for her 100-0 potential. Now any mage with items can 100-0 a squishy if they get a full combo with similar items.

ranged top laners used to poke you out of lane. Now they combo you out of lane as soon as u get back to it.

junglers used to be weaker then lanes. They would just be helping the lane. This season especially junglers are usually just as strong or stronger then the lanes for most of the early game.

It used to take assassins landing there combo to kill people. Now its not required. A zed ult e auto will do 800 damage by itself with just 1 item. akali and dianna only need 1 ult to kill .
Tanks used to win trades by just being more durable and having mini sunfire. Now tanks have base damage almost as high as mages. Its alot higher then almost all bruiser and skirmisher ability base damage. It used to be tank would outscale your damage with there durability. So you had to punish them early. Now tanks have the stronger early game but get outscaled by the damage.

hopeful4Oct 31, 20176 votes

Burst of assassins and burst mages not only has gone down, but also there have been introduced a ton of abilities and items to counter it the past years. This is a fact.

Sustain damage may have increased but its only because tank durability also increased. Its an arms race between tanks, control mages and ADCs, with every other class being in the dumpster

SqueyOct 31, 20177 votes

ya while all other classes have had a damage increase over the years, ap assassins have had theres actually go down cause of items.

Tanks used to be more tanky then they are now. But they also had less cc, shields, and heals.

As Automated riven said.

Every mage pre season 4 could 100-0 anyone with their entire kit.

This is true also, back then we had actual items made for burst mages. It however was too good and turned all mages into burst mages if they bought it. However after it was taken out sustained damage mages have done just fine while the burst mages died out.

Riot just seams to hate burst champions, Even if they have counterplay. If anything riot has over the years nerfed burst champions who have counterplay while leaving the ones with little couterplay alone.

Automated RivenOct 31, 20172 votes

Every mage pre season 4 could 100-0 anyone with their entire kit. The reason lux is bad is because that's all she does. And her CD's are to long. Fuck I have 100-0 people with lissandra of all people. Often. That's why when anivia made a resurgence her ability to ult e and kill people was OP. The fact is that damage used to be higher. But defensive items were better and most offensive build paths included a full defensive item. This kept you safe from being instagibbed. And that not even counting that back in the day when tanks were actually good the algorithm for armor was different and defensive items were stronger to begin with.

deadlychuckOct 31, 20177 votes

weird, it's like there use to be an item to increase burst mage burst

and it's almost like there's now multiple times to increase AD burst

LordGeovanniOct 31, 20177 votes

Burst mages are not supposed to one shot anyone they are supposed to use their combo to BURST SQUISHY champions not kills. burst should not even be relevant versus tanks. Assassins should one shot combo mages and marksmen but if they get that they should lose everyone having CC Engage and excapes. You can get one or 2 of these on specific champions for a play style but your damage should be hampered when you get reliability else where assassins should not be reliable at all they are supposed to be a chance class. their basic skills cooldowns should be balls to the walls crazy maybe have their ults be lower than other classes so they have their combo together. none of that lane poke or sustain or kill resets make that kit situational not class defaults.

Fashion MageOct 31, 20173 votes

Generally one-shotting isn't a thing at all if one's game is well-designed.

Red WreckageOct 31, 201729 votes

riot balance:
some champ is doing too much damage to fight this others must do as much or even more damage! but now these are OP. ok, give EVERYTHING "tons of damage"

btw have u seen nami with new runes? :D

JaspersOct 31, 20173 votes

That last bit... no. I'm intrigued as a Nami main. Are we talking Celerity or Absolute Focus with Gathering Storm or what?

On topic, agree with the sentiment of the thread but sometimes I don't feel mages do enough damage. ... Yet if someone is stupid enough to go near Heimer's turrets, and he hits and E, don't expect to be alive after he RW's you while the turrets are firing their beams. The shear damage output of that combo is ridiculous.... I love it.

hopeful4Oct 31, 20173 votes

The current meta is exactly due to burst mages/assassins/divers not doing as much damage as they should. You could oneshot people before and now you cant unless you crit someone with a marskman.

Boards complaining about "damage creep" goes as back as the creation of this forum. Its posts like this that nullified the checks of ADCs and gave us this Ardent cancer meta. Made the entire game an arms race between ADCs and tanks.

Sire HippingtonOct 31, 20174 votes

Assasins actually do more damage than befor, it's just more telegraphed and delayed, which paired with the absurd increase in shielding/healing that can and usually will be thrown at the target makes it hard to kill anything in a teamfight, and there is no second chance because they die so fast to the retaliation. Ranged Sustained damage doesn't have much issue with those shields, all it does is buy some extra seconds befor the dps cuts through it. Melees with sustained damage have the issue of CC creep(just take a look at S2 tanks and current tanks) so they hardly can make use of their dps in bigger fights.

Damage creep is a real issue that accelerated alot since S6. When damage overall is to high, range, cc and reliabillity become the most important factors, assasins lost reliabillity on their update while ADC stay the very reliable , while also beeing ranged, and tanks have more CC then ever while also beeing rather reliable.

ApexInTheCircleOct 31, 201713 votes

Power creep is an unfortunate side effect of any kind of online game. Especially one with the life span of League and WoW.

If you take a look at WoW for example, they went back and trimmed down the numbers because they were getting so ridiculously high. I mean why does my tank have to have 124k health?

But then again that example could be applied to league as well. I mean look at cho'gath and Sion. It's not uncommon to see them with an upwards of 6.5k - 8k health and taking almost no damage. Or hell, even see a rammus with stoneplate rocking 700 armor, or a Galio negating an upwards of 90% magic damage.

Watching a duskblade Wukong one shot someone (I do this build all the time and the amount of confusion it causes is understandable) Or Watching Syndra one ult someone is so common place it's a wonder how we've gotten this far.

PoskeOct 31, 20177 votes

{quoted}

Power creep is an unfortunate side effect of any kind of online game. Especially one with the life span of League and WoW.

If you take a look at WoW for example, they went back and trimmed down the numbers because they were getting so ridiculously high. I mean why does my tank have to have 124k health?

But then again that example could be applied to league as well. I mean look at cho'gath and Sion. It's not uncommon to see them with an upwards of 6.5k - 8k health and taking almost no damage. Or hell, even see a rammus with stoneplate rocking 700 armor, or a Galio negating an upwards of 90% magic damage.

Watching a duskblade Wukong one shot someone (I do this build all the time and the amount of confusion it causes is understandable) Or Watching Syndra one ult someone is so common place it's a wonder how we've gotten this far.

Riot has been nerfing champions more then buffing champions since I started playing thsi game 2009

Seen every patch note. 70% of those are nerfs

However they gutted defense

There isnt power creep in terms of power budget in leaguue though dont get that confused with gutted defense

What we really need is MR AND armor to be relevant again

The only tanks + seju which see play are the ones with tricksters/%dmg reduction / stoneplate abusers. Even those melt surpisingly fast...

DurzakaOct 31, 20172 votes

Wow is not comparable at all.

WoW had a number creep problem. That didn't affect the game at all except it just made everything look bloated and unnecessary, not overpowered.

GigglesOOct 31, 20173 votes

S1 you could just build 6k hp by getting 4 warmogs, and then get a FoN and ninja tabis and be happy with your defense stats. Spirit Visage was so powerful adcs purchased it, along with randuins.

DragonSheaOct 31, 20179 votes

With so much damage Uber tanks are needed just to stop them, they is it that Sej, rammus, triss and twitch are so damn strong. Tanks are ADC's are too strong it why mages and Bruisers are not that strong expect for a few occasions.

JRobin31Oct 31, 20177 votes

Damage Creep is essentially a meme for online computer games. It's a classic designer pitfall:

A: How can we reward our players? B: I know. We'll give them a cool new way to do ... (wait for it) ... DAMAGE!

Later On: A: There's too much damage in the game. B: Well, we can't just take away their damage. The players won't be happy about that. Besides, we promised them. C: I know. We'll just ... (wait for it) ... increase HEALTH!

And then even later on: A: Everything is too tanky. B: Well, we can't just take away their health. The players won't be happy with that. C: I know. We'll just...

Sometimes good design makes players upset. The nerf bat is a good thing to have on hand and not feel too guilty using.

MordepoolOct 31, 20175 votes

With how Reliable most damage is yeah I can say it's too high. Perhaps they should shift more reliable damage down just a bit

AhrisOct 31, 20175 votes

Ahri does no damage and she needs her damage up.

Trap or a TrickOct 31, 201739 votes

{quoted}

Ahri does no damage and she needs her damage up.

''Wrong'' -Donald Trump 2017

KoutetsujôOct 31, 20179 votes

Ahri is garbage in the actual meta

MhihnjOct 31, 201712 votes

current playrate, winrate mean nothing because in we are hitting preseason soon but if you want to know

League of graphs: 50.9% winrate global(all ranks) 7.8% playrate

champion.gg: 51.17% winrate this patch 4.81% playrate this patch player experience this season: 98% 1-50 games

lolalytics: 50.57% winrate platinum+

decent spot imo.

wildfox99Oct 31, 201715 votes

yes,he was wrong

Ahri does no damage for being a 1800HP full damage champion and she needs her damage up.

fixed

actually her damage sucks,but she's too safe,her kit is so unsatisfying to play as her or aganist

so they should buff her damage and reduce her safeness,because actually playing ahri feels like being useless the whole game (you can't make pick alone unless you are so fed,no tf potential,1vs1 potential went down after her nerf),you can only charm an enemy and wait for your team to kill him,as if you'd be a thresh...but when you are playing aganist her you see she's too safe,her kit doen't put her in risk so chasing her is so hard if she have a decent team...

btw win rate means nothing not because of the pre season,but because there are too many factors to consider,like player base,skill cap...

MhihnjOct 31, 20175 votes

her damage sucks,but she's too safe

yea that makes more sense(not sarcastic). I feel really stupid when I hit everything yet the enemy gets away. But unless riot decides on what she is supposed to be, She is staying there.

ExcessiveProtestOct 31, 20174 votes

I like looking at it in terms of effect on winrate, since it's hard to judge the power of safety. Before the movespeed, she had about 52% winrate, and was considered one of the healthiest assassins. After 5.2, that jumped to 57%, meaning that speed has more effective power than was taken from Leblanc when they cut Distortion damage by two thirds, and that's lowballing it. In the same patch they added the speed, they substantially nerfed her damage and itemization. Factor in that a Champion's high winrate typically increases after changes as players adjust playstyle, and that speed could easily be bumping her winrate by 8%. Though Charm's damage was buffed, the long cooldown and unreliability, on top of its main use as utility, make it negligible in terms of effective power. Since her current winrate is comparable to pre-changes, that means all the damage and utility she has lost is comparable in power.

Tl;dr: Q Homeguard is propping up about 8% winrate's worth of nerfs, mostly damage, and is about 16% of her power budget tacked on, then taken out of literally every ability.

PB4UAMENov 1, 20171 votes

And to add into this, she is still statistically stronger than over two thirds of all champions despite all that.

ExcessiveProtestNov 1, 20173 votes

If you mean by raw winrate, that would be incredibly misleading. ~~Not even getting into which winrate to use, holy crap why can't those sites ever agree Mark Twain was right~~

Considering the way Rito balances, for better or worse, the average winrate of a "healthy" Champion is above 50%. Champions like Ryze, Leblanc, and old Azir are intentionally kept under 50%, either due to having too much power when used by skilled players, or to make laning bearable for their opponent; the devs have outright said Leblanc is intentionally kept balanced under 50%; if she ever won half her games despite her bad teamfighting, laning phase would be suicide for her opponent.

As a result, as bad as this sounds, Ahri should have a winrate well above 50% in a neutral meta, since in her current state (safety buffs that benefit bad players combined with damage nerfs that punish higher-risk plays*) she has little to no pro-level potential (Cue crying Faker), and is typically more of an inconvenience that won't give you kills as an opponent, rather than the longer-ranged Leblanc she used to be. In the ~~Ardent~~ current Meta, it is most likely a bad one though, which may or may not justify her current winrate and/or make it inexcusable, depending on which winrate someone chooses as the real one.

(* The original intent of W and R's reliable damage was to encourage getting into enemy retaliation range, thus rewarding good players and killing bad ones; however balanced it may or may not be, it still requires more effort than Q poking until a jungler shows up or her opponent loses focus. As it stands, nobody on any side likes the current state of W and R)

SweedishGunnerOct 31, 20176 votes

So you mean she should play like old Ahri.

wildfox99Oct 31, 20174 votes

it was right,but she needs her safeness down

i know he's spamming this kind of comment everywhere (i actually agree with him but he shouldn't spam it),but i think these kind of answer are even worse

RouwhorstOct 31, 20174 votes

In season 2, one-shotting people was also present. The most notably thing that changed i see is gold income. Where you would have 4 items (including boots) at 35 min you now have 5 and a bit items. This might give the illusion there is more damage while in fact, the game is just faster and those damages would only be achieved very late game. Another major point might be our memory, which is very selective and biased.

FurriesAreHotOct 31, 20173 votes

Ive been playing since season 5, and I can say the game could use damage being tuned down overall. The majority can agree longer games and longer team fights is typically more enjoyable than short burstfests