Honestly, I’m starting to think Hashinshin is right about Riot’s top lane balancing philosophy

HateDaddy··103 votes·22,818 views

More accurately, Riot’s lack of a philosophy for balancing top lane. For what it’s worth, I’ve never really been one that has subscribed entirely to Hashinshin’s beliefs because he often draws illusionary correlations and falls victim to cyclical logic as a result (ranged champions are OP because they’re OP). Nevertheless, I’ve always thought highly of him as an intuitive thinker and his rants are, at the very least, entertaining and thought provoking.

For the sake of clarity, what I am referring to specifically is that Hashinshin often maintains that one of the biggest reasons Riot doesn’t balance top lane well is because they don’t have a top lane player on their staff. I don’t know if this is true, I wouldn’t even know how to verify it but I’ll say that it certainly feels that way. Moreover, top lane has become (and quite frankly it has always been) the lane where rejected mages go and they bully out melee champions. Throw in your other ranged champions like Jayce, Quinn and Urgot (in his defense he plays more like a melee champion but still has some annoying poke), and top lane simply isn’t fun for melee champions.

We tend to go through this phase a lot. We cycle back and forth between ranged champions/melee champions dominating top but traditionally ranged champions have always been given a much larger leash in terms of balance. Melee champions might dominate top for a few patches, maybe half a season - ranged champions will dominate top for years. And because many ranged champions (this is especially true for mages) have a lot of built in utility, they scale much better. So your incentive for playing melee champions is not high and revolves around winning hard early and shoving it down as fast as possible - this is another point Hash makes pretty consistently and I tend to agree with him.

For some reason, this seems to be okay. And riots response is usually by simply over-stating melee champions to combat this, but it often doesn’t work until you’ve over-stated a bunch of melee champions and then they feast off each other until riot nerfs them, and then we return to Kennen, Jayce, Vlad, Ryze, etc. I don’t even mind these champions being top because diversity is a good thing. But the problem is fundamental and systematic as well as balance philosophy: this game favors range way too strongly over melee. I don’t pretend to have all the solutions, let me be clear on that. The obvious solution is fix ranged vs melee interactions, but that simply isn’t happening - it would take too much time and I doubt Riot sees it as a problem that is pressing enough to warrant such a task.

This doesn’t mean there aren’t things Riot can do, but these things get ignored and it’s why top laners that play melee oriented champions feel so disgruntled with riot. Creep block is a big one. It continues to religiously fuck over melee champions, ESPECIALLY IN MELEE VS RANGED matches. Riot says this required too much energy and time to fix, but they’ve also been saying that for nearly 5 years. Honestly, you stop caring about that because it’s still something that could have been done at some point in the last 5 years and it only continues to get worse, so it’s not it’s something that just exists as static. In short, I’m tired of hearing “it would take too much...”

It didn’t take too much when ADCs were shit and you overhauled their items

When assassins dominated mid in season 3, you guys introduced a item to help ranged champions/mages deal with assassins in a matter of months (seekers - remember, old Zhonyas used to build out of Lagre rod + chainvest).

You guys gutted the potential for anything to go bot lane in a matter of months when ADCs cried about it, and that is still one of the biggest systematic changes to this date.

You guys didn’t mind scrapping a rune/mastery system that was simple and worked for everyone only to add keystones that largely favor damage over durability and this disproportionately gives ranged champions advantages even when the keystones attempt to adjust for it (but then you realize poke keystones are still strong across the board whereas melee keystones often get nerfed).

So I’m sorry, I’m not trying to hear that shit anymore. You’ve clearly got the resources to fix it, you just don’t. And going back to Hash, he tends to highlight this all the time and I agree with him on it: you guys just choose not to do shit that helps melee champions consistently but if it’s ranged champions, you guys turn the world over to fix it. It’s why mages can go to any lane still and nobody bats an eye at it but let a bruiser or assassin do well mid and it’s suddenly the end of the world.

I’ll be honest, I just feel frustrated playing top lane. As a melee player, my options are often play bruisers and brainlessly split push or play maokai/Malphite and brainlessly engage. Nothing I do really matters because bot/mid have way more control over the map and the jungler is free to decide whether I even get to lane or not. And you’ve only done things to hurt this (nerfing TP into the ground instead of just reducing its global effectiveness; gutting sustain in many champions; making defense feel worthless unless you invest strictly into it, then it’s OP during early/mid game). Like I said, I like Hash and tend to believe he falls victim to extreme thinking. But honestly, at this point I find myself almost always agreeing with him and I think it’s time you guys try to win your top lane players back - just go watch any top laner stream and you’ll have salt for days. And that’s honestly not really their fault either, that’s the hand we are dealt by riot

135 Comments

Tobykachu27 votes

Honestly, I don't even play top lane but think ranged champions need to gtfo of there

HateDaddy19 votes

{quoted}

Honestly, I don't even play top lane but think ranged champions need to gtfo of there

That’s the thing - ranged champions CAN exist in top lane and the game can still be balanced. But, Riot needs to tone down the effectiveness of ranged champions over melee champions for this to work, and not by simply over-stating melees or by giving them newer, higher-end mechanics because this just power creeps most melees out while only a few feast. But they don’t see this as a big enough problem to attempt to actually fix it. And that’s why you have salty 30 year old faux-neckbeard top laners like me.

Tobykachu4 votes

The only time I feel as though they're ever balanced is when they are generally underpowered and not effective at really anything outside of laning phase. They just create a hyper unfun gameplay experience and the introduction of Kleptomancy has done nothing but exasperate the problem.

Fízz v221 votes

always thought highly of him as an intuitive thinker

i dont think hashinshin thinks tbh xd

Sir Saltarin12 votes

He does, that's why he has been saying for a while that mage items are busted.

Then Riot realized that Morello was broken and nerfed it + the orb.

And more are about to come.

HateDaddy21 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sir Saltarin,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Vh7kQK0F,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2019-03-07T16:17:18.518+0000)

He does, that's why he has been saying for a while that mage items are busted.

Then Riot realized that Morello was broken and nerfed it + the orb.

And more are about to come.

Gonna be honest, I’ve been saying mages and mage itemization get disproportionate favoritism for years. And I’ve maintained that mage itemization is ridiculous and most superior and I just get downvoted into oblivion because a bronze 2 player lost to zed xd. So I just stopped arguing about it - no point in concusing myself further.

Sir Saltarin18 votes

The Boards have such a thing that will always believe that AP items are weak, to the point where more often than not when someome talks about Zhonyas is to say how trash item it is, which cant be more wrong

Marshbouy18 votes

"yasuo shouldn't have an ability that negates ultimates"

"an item that negates ultimates should be buffed more"

Nyarlathοtep11 votes

{quoted}

"yasuo shouldn't have an ability that negates ultimates"

"an item that negates ultimates should be buffed more"

This compare sucks tbh. Yasuo is free to move around and act. Zhonyas is a stasis. You cant move or act at all. You cant even be targeted by allies.

Fisher No Chains9 votes

Not sure why you were downvoted. Zhonya’s is a self applied stasis that has a TWO MINUTES cooldown. Windwall is just some AoE basic ability with an ultimate’s power that barely has a cooldown considering how impactful it is.

NineTailedMystic5 votes

Everything about Zhonya's is garbage though, outside of the active...when it's not on cooldown. Especially when compared to the past, it's a shadow of its former self.

5StackUltOneShot2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Fízz v2,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Vh7kQK0F,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-03-07T16:12:25.406+0000)

i dont think hashinshin thinks tbh xd

Coming from a hardcore Fizz main lmao

Marshbouy21 votes

Oh, we're going back to saying hashinshin is smart again? Time to take a break from the boards for a while.

HateDaddy9 votes

{quoted}

Oh, we're going back to saying hashinshin is smart again? Time to take a break from the boards for a while.

I don’t know what others say about him but I’ve always thought of him as a fairly intelligent dude. Like I said, he falls victim to some extreme thinking, but it’s nothing a few psychology/stat courses couldn’t fix xd

LTK KoRo7 votes

it's not like boards have single opinion on hash

people who play melees are aware that hash have tons of good opinions and his understanding of mess which toplane is right now is really good. We don't always agree with his ways tho, and not everything which he says is right.

but people who play ranged tops or mid/adc/supp are thinking that hash is a moron because the only melee which they see is zed, and they couldn't give any fuck about ranged/melee discrepancy during laning

Marshbouy3 votes

No, people who play mid/adc/supp recognize that he's an idiot for wanting to be able to 1v2 an enemy bot lane on Jax when he's a bit ahead.

LTK KoRo5 votes

he literally never said something like that, but i guess you deduced that after watching max. 3 twitch clips with hash. He doesn't want something like that. He just wants to be play lane. Not stay under turret all the time and get outscaled anyway because enemy picked jayce or kennen

Sir Saltarin2 votes

but people who play ranged tops or mid/adc/supp

And when he was saying a few months ago "buff adcs, they are shit" it was the opposite and we were saying it and the other part of the Boards was calling him braindead.

It's unfair to say that only adcs and ranged players disagree with Hash, and if you do that you should mention that a lot of junglers hates him because he always wants to nerf jungle.

Moody P17 votes

I wouldn't be surprised if they had nobody who plays top lane on their balance team. Have you seen how arbitrary base stats are between juggernauts and divers?

HateDaddy6 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Vh7kQK0F,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2019-03-07T16:17:00.282+0000)

I wouldn't be surprised if they had nobody who plays top lane on their balance team. Have you seen how arbitrary base stats are between juggernauts and divers?

ya indeed

How’s your spring break fucker? (Mods we are friends, tranquillo)

Moody P2 votes

bad, im using my study time terribly and i didnt even realize it would be break this week so I planned wrong anyhow. and my boss forced me to use my PTO before it expires so I can't even work for the next 5 days

calculus is 2hard man

HateDaddy1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Vh7kQK0F,comment-id=000300000000,timestamp=2019-03-07T16:25:37.861+0000)

bad, im using my study time terribly and i didnt even realize it would be break this week so I planned wrong anyhow. and my boss forced me to use my PTO before it expires so I can't even work for the next 5 days

calculus is 2hard man

I feel you, I’m so glad this is the last semester I have to take 5 classes + work full time. Ive used this break to build my office in the basement lol.

Moody P1 votes

I'm not even taking five lul I just suck ass at calculus and I'm bad at studying

Ralanr2 votes

I know this feeling all to well.

Sir Saltarin4 votes

To be more accurate it would be:

(Mods we are friends, tranquilos)

Because you are using the plural.

HateDaddy3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sir Saltarin,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Vh7kQK0F,comment-id=000300000001,timestamp=2019-03-07T16:25:59.301+0000)

To be more accurate it would be:

Because you are using the plural.

I really like you

Sir Saltarin2 votes

A lot of ppl here have helped me with english when I struggled.

As a native spanish speaker I must do the same.

HateDaddy4 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sir Saltarin,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Vh7kQK0F,comment-id=00030000000100000000,timestamp=2019-03-07T16:42:18.763+0000)

A lot of ppl here have helped me with english when I struggled.

As a native spanish speaker I must do the same.

I appreciate it a ton, I really do. My Mexican friends never correct me lol.

kingDeDeDarius5 votes

I think even irelia now has base stats equal to or greater than most juggers, and she's infinitely more mobile than any of them, has a better defensive ability than most, and and hits just as hard, but much sooner in a fight, with much better utility. Does it make sense? No. No it doesn't.

Moody P4 votes

juggernaut kits are garbage af

Of you want good immobile fighters just play dota lmao

Mordepool16 votes

Their philosophy has been to ask Bruisers to be understanding of the Fact that They get Hard countered by Ranged Champions.

That's as subtle as a Brink through a Window as to where their Favoritism sits

PB4UAME2 votes

Then they created the bullshit myth out of their asses that ADCs were also supposed to be go to tank counters, without even having to invest one iota of time, effort or gold into changing their playstyles at all, but could 2 shot squishies and 4 shots tanks with a full burst, anti-squishy build, no armor pen, nothing but AS, AD and crit.

Saianna16 votes

Hanshin, the guy that changes his opinion everyday depending on what champion he plays or what champions wrecks him?

Han playing X/Y/Z vs Riven and gets owned like little kid - RIVEN OP, how the fuck riot did leave her like that WTF?!!?!11

Next day Han playing as Riven and getting owned by X/Y/Z - WTF X/Y/Z OP, Riven so weak?! WTF Riot?! Why Riven so unplayable and weak?!?!11

HateDaddy10 votes

{quoted}

Hanshin, the guy that changes his opinion everyday depending on what champion he plays or what champions wrecks him?

Again, i am making it clear that he often falls victim to extreme thinking but that doesn’t make several of the points he makes and consistently makes less valid.

JJI7449 votes

Its not extreme thinking, its a disconnect from reality. Toplane has, for ages now, been dominated by melee champions, both in terms of popularity and effectiveness. When a ranged champ does do well toplane, its usually because the champ itself is busted as opposed to any overreaching 'ranged beats melee toplane.' situation.

At this moment, the top 10 winrates toplane are 70% melee, and the top 10 playrates are 90% melee (with Jayce being the 10% 'ranged') Has there ever, in the history of League, been a time when those numbers were reversed?

PaffWasTaken6 votes

You will also notice that the top 10 winrates who are melee in toplane is ENTIRELY composed of champions who fare well against ranged, by either having hard engages, mobility, poke or even all at once. What you see is Jax, being able to jump from kilometers away to stop ranged harassment, Pantheon and Rengar doing the same, Hecarim and Wukong who's whole kits were made for target picking and elimination, Riven with so much mobility and hard CC that standing in the lane by thousands of units away from her or standing right next to her makes no difference, Akali, who's kit is almost solely made of tools to let her close range between units and so on.

Isn't weird that the best champions are either ranged, or have tools to counter range?

Let's go to top pickrates then, with Irelia, Silas and Renekton doing the same thing as mentionned units above. The only 3 weird ones of the bunch here are Darius Kayle and Yorick . Kayle has been reworked, its normal if her pickrate is high. Yorick has been the champion with the highest winrate/pickrate ratio last patch and only got recently nerfed, its normal if people are still trying him out to see if he fares well (PS: he also has anti-range capacities). Now let's get to Darius, who pretty much doesn't show anything impressive partly because he pretty much ALWAYS have a considerable pickrate despite his state in the meta because of he is a go-to for people learning top, and because he has an impressively low winrate despite being an overbuffed champion who never saw a single nerf in the last almost two years now. He is one of the lane bullies who fares the worst against ranged champions, he can't double dash like Renekton and punish back, he can get eternally kited as long as the opponent doesn't make a dumb mistake and this is the reason why he is so bad right now.

Showcasing what is strong and what is used in toplane and pointing out that there's a majority of melee champs there doesn't condemn Hashinshin's or OP's argument; in fact, it does quite the opposite since Almost every single one of those champions are counterpicks to ranged oppressors, which are the problem they pointed out , it just shows how much impactful ranged champions are on top lane simply by existing and by being by definition strictly superior to any melees who doesn't have tools to directly deal with them.

Sir Saltarin32 votes

That's not accurate, he has always complained about Riven.

Iota Theta7 votes

Example: the Viktor top incident. Lost to it, said it was OP. Played it and was against a Riven one-trick, all he did was complain about how Riven was so OP.

I’ve heard...some decent ideas from him, but I often hear way more bias from him than balance (like comparing Zhonya’s to GA and complaining that Zhonya’s has a better active and stats).

Minimac20003 votes

Wait, but viktor top was definitely op and had to get nerfed like 3 times before it was possible to play anything into it well against anyone who actually knew how to play it. So, I mean he wasn't wrong. He just first timed something in ranked like an idiot at a level of skill where that actually matters a lot lol Ok, yeah ga is definitely better than zhonya no argument there

Iota Theta2 votes

{quoted}

Wait, but viktor top was definitely op and had to get nerfed like 3 times before it was possible to play anything into it well against anyone who actually knew how to play it. So, I mean he wasn't wrong. He just first timed something in ranked like an idiot at a level of skill where that actually matters a lot lol

I can’t argue there. I’m glad I never faced it, just wanted to give an example I remember seeing. One was OP, then he got stomped on it by not knowing the champ and matchup that well, and into a Riven one-trick.

Ok, yeah ga is definitely better than zhonya no argument there

I don’t mean to be rude, I’m just honestly not sure if this is serious or sarcasm. Hard to tell online and especially on the boards sometimes.

Minimac20002 votes

[{quoted}](name=Iota Theta,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Vh7kQK0F,comment-id=0006000200000000,timestamp=2019-03-08T11:14:49.627+0000)

I can’t argue there. I’m glad I never faced it, just wanted to give an example I remember seeing. One was OP, then he got stomped on it by not knowing the champ and matchup that well, and into a Riven one-trick.

I don’t mean to be rude, I’m just honestly not sure if this is serious or sarcasm. Hard to tell online and especially on the boards sometimes.

In terms of game long usefulness zhonya's is obviously better in terms of an item that is realistically more likely to win you the game because you bought it, ga is better. So I guess the word I was looking for is ga is more volatile and zhonya's has less potential but is more consistent. I don't want to do math so no comment stat-wise

Iota Theta2 votes

{quoted}

In terms of game long usefulness zhonya's is obviously better in terms of an item that is realistically more likely to win you the game because you bought it, ga is better. So I guess the word I was looking for is ga is more volatile and zhonya's has less potential but is more consistent. I don't want to do math so no comment stat-wise

They’re both really strong effects. Zhonya’s is an active that you tend to use reactively to avoid a big hit or stall, but has a lower CD. GA’s is a passive and a much longer CD. Both can be lost if caught out.

Stat-wise...they have similar stats. Zhonya’s has CDR that GA doesn’t, which helps it a lot. Armor, Zhonya’s has 45, GA has 40, though part of that has to do with build path. Damage stats, they are comparable. AP always has higher values, mainly because it only increases abilities while AD increases both abilities and aas. At the same time, based on Riot’s Adaptive Force formula (1 AP = 1 AF = .6 AD), they have the same adaptive force value.

Gold efiiciency is apparently (minus effects): GA: 84.82% efficient Zhonya’s: 96.48% efficient, surpasses 100% if prevents a death. From looking at it, the biggest factor in their gold efficiency differences is the CDR Zhonya’s gives. Cut that, or give GA CDR and they’ll be about even outside active vs passive effect.

Minimac20003 votes

[{quoted}](name=Iota Theta,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Vh7kQK0F,comment-id=000600020000000000000000,timestamp=2019-03-08T18:04:04.561+0000)

They’re both really strong effects. Zhonya’s is an active that you tend to use reactively to avoid a big hit or stall, but has a lower CD. GA’s is a passive and a much longer CD. Both can be lost if caught out.

Stat-wise...they have similar stats. Zhonya’s has CDR that GA doesn’t, which helps it a lot. Armor, Zhonya’s has 45, GA has 40, though part of that has to do with build path. Damage stats, they are comparable. AP always has higher values, mainly because it only increases abilities while AD increases both abilities and aas. At the same time, based on Riot’s Adaptive Force formula (1 AP = 1 AF = .6 AD), they have the same adaptive force value.

Gold efiiciency is apparently (minus effects): GA: 84.82% efficient Zhonya’s: 96.48% efficient, surpasses 100% if prevents a death. From looking at it, the biggest factor in their gold efficiency differences is the CDR Zhonya’s gives. Cut that, or give GA CDR and they’ll be about even outside active vs passive effect.

Agreed that that would fix the stat disparity but the difference is they are built at different times in the game. GA really doesn't need cdr, bc by the time it is bought everyone already has cdr capped. Changing that cdr for a little bit of hp or hp% on the passive (though not too much or adcs will be broken with it) would be pretty spicy

chipndip17 votes

Here's the problem, HD:

Hashinshin is someone that can only sniff out problems, but has literally no fucking idea on how to fix them. He can complain about top lane fighters X, or top lane tanks Y. He has no clue on how to make any of these pain points better, but he's good at rallying his hive mind and swaying other top lane players to the point where Riot feels like they just HAVE TO make a move on these topics.

Is this outright horrible? No. Top lane fighters have been left to be split push monkeys for years up until the fated "Right through the counter-strike" explosion (funnily enough, Fiora and Jax are both skirmishers, not fighters). Riot has this thing of ignoring classes like artillery mages, enchanters, and, previously, fighters while paying way too much attention to marksmen and mages. Like...way too much.

However, did we need Spear of Shojin? Did we need Conqueror? Honestly, no. These game elements were some panicky, quick-fix solutions that didn't get ironed out well enough, and now they're creating solo queue menaces in select few picks. Because of Riot's knee-jerk reaction to being told to go and die, they 180'd top lane so now top lane tanks are on the receiving end of the bullshit while top lane fighters live it up. Conqueror just adds more bullshit to this stinking fire. Sure, fighters should be more liable to winning lane against a tank unless that tank specifically counters the fighter, but Conqueror is overkill. Poppy, a champ that's designed to lane well into a lot of champs that like Conqueror, is struggling heavily against all of its users. Imagine tanks that aren't specifically designed to do well into mobile champions? It's blatantly unfair to tanks. It's been a cute experiment but it's time to stop.

But all that aside, who cares if there's a top lane player on the balance team or not? How can Riot control that in their hiring process?

Also, who cares about "Fighters going mid and everyone being mad at them"? Mages went bot and everyone got mad at mages, right? Some things just aren't allowed to be. This is one of them. Not because I agree, but rather because I was told that I was wrong for wanting more strategic diversity in the game when Riot tried to actually do something about League's stagnant-ass meta. If I'm wrong then, then you're unfortunately wrong now. The community plays favorites and Riot simply echoes that by catering to what the community wants. Don't blame Riot. Blame the community full of immobile mage mains and Tyler1 followers that won't shut the fuck up already.

Lanakila Au4 votes

Its because Riot is now owned by a large corporation. Say you work for them and you come to your boss and say you wanna implement this new project to fix minion block. All they're gonna be looking at is how much work is going to be required and how much money this will make them. This is the foley when a game becomes this big. Why invest all this time when they will get no money out of it, when they could easily put that same time into pumping out more $100 gold chromas

Kurorade3 votes

Top lane is absolute hell with things like Kennen, Jayce, Karma, Viktor, and other mages. I hate going up against Kenne who can run away at the speed of light, get armor and magic resist so I can't trade, and stun me on top of all that. Not to mention it's on a 6 second cooldown when maxed.

ZephyrDrake2 votes

I love how these "rejected mid laners that come bully melee tops" still have both a lower pickrate AND winrate when you compare them to most of the fighter and juggernaut champions. Yet somehow these ranged tops are these invincible nd unstoppable force of death and destruction

HàrrowR3 votes

{quoted}

I love how these "rejected mid laners that come bully melee tops" still have both a lower pickrate AND winrate when you compare them to most of the fighter and juggernaut champions. Yet somehow these ranged tops are these invincible nd unstoppable force of death and destruction

Tbh im not even a toplaner but I hate the winrate argument, playing against a champ you hate can be frustrating even if in the end you win, if that game was 25 mins of you fighting behind a turret or getting dived and killed you will not have fun and your team carrying you in the end will not feel like a real success either.

jeanne mulaney1 votes

Calling Hashinshin an "intuitive thinker" when 90% of his complaints often boil down to "I don't know how to fight this champion with my one trick" or "My one trick isn't the best in top lane" seems a bit silly. I think league definitely lacks clarity on what makes a top laner, but Hashinshin is not the first person to bring this up and he's certainly not the one with the best arguments for it.

Even when he's right it's often under a flawed premise (He walks into the ranged top laner, gets punished for overextending, then slowly walks back and takes damage all the way back then goes "WOW THAT'S FAIR!!!!!!" -- yeah, ranged top laners are a problem but being punished for playing like an idiot isn't support for this idea.)

SEKAI4 votes

[{quoted}](name=the mouthfeel,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Vh7kQK0F,comment-id=002d,timestamp=2019-03-08T18:41:24.376+0000)

Calling Hashinshin an "intuitive thinker" when 90% of his complaints often boil down to "I don't know how to fight this champion with my one trick" or "My one trick isn't the best in top lane" seems a bit silly. I think league definitely lacks clarity on what makes a top laner, but Hashinshin is not the first person to bring this up and he's certainly not the one with the best arguments for it.

Even when he's right it's often under a flawed premise (He walks into the ranged top laner, gets punished for overextending, then slowly walks back and takes damage all the way back then goes "WOW THAT'S FAIR!!!!!!" -- yeah, ranged top laners are a problem but being punished for playing like an idiot isn't support for this idea.)

Hash is salty for a good amount of time because all the high elo players collectively camp him on purpose, or at least a good amount of them. It's something that becomes extremely apparent if you so much as sit 1 stream through, he's literally camped every single game without any deviation. Only in something like Hash's stream you'd see people 3-manning a top laner under the top laner's turret before the bot is even pushed in going so far to let the lower half of the map largely ignored, but that's just the everyday for Hash.

Most of the time he wasn't "punished for overextending", he simply started the game already being pushed in and then dying under his turret.

Hash's game typically goes in 2 ways, either the rest of the team feeds and he loses or the rest of the team carries and he wins. Because he's camped all the time and in every single game, there is quite literally nothing he could do besides waiting for his team to carry him. This is also why there is the general belief that Hash only ever gets carried. IN FACT, many of the high elo campers camp him specifically because they want to reinforce that belief, there had even be opponent players who proudly stated so on his stream via /all chat while hard-camping and ghosting him (yeah, Hash gave in and put up a map mask eventually because people couldn't stop ghosting his game while hard-camping him. And not even joking, that was quite literally every game).

Hash's view about top being hot garbage is also partially attributed by the fact he gets artificially camped every single game. This painted a skewed image in his head that top is in dire need of buff, when a good amount of him not being able to do much as a top laner ultimately comes down to him getting camped every single game rather than top being in just that bad of a position (still not that good though).

This isn't to say Hash is some ubermensch with super intellect or whatever, and he does have his tilt-sprees and which his "plays" make everyone scratch their head with a razor (such as most times whenever he sees a Riven, his IQ drops by 3 digits), but the rather popular opinion around of constantly giving him shit for just about anything as well as dismissal of his just about everything is ultimately, largely manufactured and overemphasised.

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