I don't think the bruiser lifeline to ADCs killing them in 4-5 auto attacks being nerfed is very fun, unless you're nerfing ADCs to compensate.
Something like reducing the Critical Damage boost on IE to 40% or something and/or 10 AD off IE.
Dead flag blues21 votesCan adc deal stop bursting people down instead ?
Ahristocats12 votesyea of course, ninja tabi countering 6000 gold of itemization is fair and balanced
and airkingneo the prince of equality knows that well
AirKingNeo8 votesyea of course, ninja tabi countering 6000 gold of itemization is fair and balanced
Not entirely sure what you're saying. Who's 6k gold of items are we talking?
Ahristocats10 votesof course you wouldn't know because in low elo if zed is being played players wouldn't bother to build 5 ninja tabi and fuck duskblade+youmu lethality with a 1100 gold item
tabis are fair and balanced we all knew that in master tier
AirKingNeo8 votesI'm asking if you're talking ADCs builds or bruisers actually.
Also, Tabi isn't balanced. It's a forced rush top lane, but it's balanced behind ADCs dealing too much damage. I'd like to see both issues fixed.
Handin Out Naps3 votesThe less armor nerf wont have any effect om tanks who are building it because they already build a bunch of armor. This is making it easier for bruisers and especially ad assassins who just get completely fucked by a pair of boots.
For some reason dusk gets nerfed before shields and tabis and everyone is happy, but oh no how dare you touch tabis that are a huge problem for ad assassins, while these 4 item last whisper adcs are killing us.
Escheton5 votes[{quoted}](name=Je suis Rubick,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Vh5I4lWv,comment-id=000300000000,timestamp=2018-03-27T21:36:13.505+0000)
of course you wouldn't know because in low elo if zed is being played players wouldn't bother to build 5 ninja tabi and fuck duskblade+youmu lethality with a 1100 gold item
tabis are fair and balanced we all knew that in master tier
If you have a Zed forcing 5 tabis your cc dealers and carries are having a field-day. Don't pretend like there isn't a downside to skipping more fitting boots just to counterbuild a fed champion. It costs dps on their adc and mage, and tenacity on their tank. Which are all rather noticeable when missing.
My Waifu Vanilla2 votesTenacity for what? And Berserker Greaves are hardly necessary nowadays when every ADC goes for 80% crit thus causing them to reach obscene levels of AS anyway without the boots. The only role in the game that has a meaningful "opportunity cost" are burst mages and only burst mages since there isn't an abundance of MPen anymore. Control and more dps oriented casters (such as Ryze) can get away with Tabis because their purpose isn't about 100-0'ing someone so the missing of the MPen is only going to make Ryze need like 4 empowered Qs to kill you instead of like 3 while the tabis or whatever are going to make him live more than long enough to do so.
Critmaster Garen11 votes[{quoted}](name=Je suis Rubick,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Vh5I4lWv,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2018-03-27T21:25:52.565+0000)
yea of course, ninja tabi countering 6000 gold of itemization is fair and balanced
Hópe1 votes[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Vh5I4lWv,comment-id=00030001,timestamp=2018-03-28T01:16:43.208+0000)
You cant counter the 10% damage reduction without true damage. You also cant counter randuins or frozen heart passive with that item.
The 60 armor isnt what adcs care about. Its the crit damage reduction on randuins that affects them.
Rengárdony Géza4 votesLiteraly i hate ninja tabi, Ninja tabi into seeker's armguard counters all the lethality you buy, its stupid, they should move the armor to 0, and just give 15-20% dmg reduction from basic attacks. There you go.
Bob the Toastr11 votesYeah, it would be terrible if those lethality items also happened to have AD on them to make you deal more damage anyway. Oh wait...
Rengárdony Géza4 votesBro, They are WAY 2 cheap to get, thats the problem, not the armor, 1100 gold vs duskblade+ghostblade , sigh
Bob the Toastr9 votes1100 gold you say? It would be a shame if there was an item for 1100 gold that gave both AD and lethality!
BestPudgeNA1 votes[{quoted}](name=Rengárdony Géza,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Vh5I4lWv,comment-id=00030002,timestamp=2018-03-28T01:21:49.926+0000)
Literaly i hate ninja tabi, Ninja tabi into seeker's armguard counters all the lethality you buy, its stupid, they should move the armor to 0, and just give 15-20% dmg reduction from basic attacks. There you go.
Consider the follow instead they could buy 
with the 800 they used on tabi's
Automated Riven1 votesThat's actually fine for a few reasons. Mostly if a mage/adc does that they are sacrificing a ton, vs tabis which still give you the Ms, not counting that eaqual footing tabis adc beats zerks adc in a 1v1. Because in addition to countering lethality the 10% damage reduction is pretty big.
Nyarlathοtep1 votesBoth void stuff and last whisper counter an amount of gold of itemization. Actually everything (or at least almost) works like this. Armour negates some AD worth of gold. Mr negates some AP worth of gold. And btw how does tabi alone counter 6000 gold of itemization?
Automated Riven1 votesIt's basically the antithesis of lethality. 30 armor and damage reduction vs 6k gold on items spent into like 140 ad and 30 lethality.
BestPudgeNA1 votes[{quoted}](name=Je suis Rubick,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Vh5I4lWv,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2018-03-27T21:25:52.565+0000)
yea of course, ninja tabi countering 6000 gold of itemization is fair and balanced
and airkingneo the prince of equality knows that well
reduce 10% flat to auto attacks and then 1-6% depending on armor. So at 100 ad they reduce about 1 to 1-1/2 
worth of AD or about 500 gold worth of gold. Tabi are an 800 gold upgrade. They aren't cost effective yet let alone "countering 6000 gold" at this point.
At 200 AD they're providing about a 
damage reduction, so about cost neutral.
At 300 AD they're starting to prevent a So a slight advantage to the to tabi's but more in the range of countering 1200 gold for 800 golds cost. Of course at this point is a very real thing since the price of being 875 and last whisper being 1300 the effective cost of the passive armor shred is 425 and providing about 6% extra damage via armor shred or about 700 gold worth of AD or a bonus of about 275 gold. Leaving us with a grand total of Tabi being 125 gold ahead.
TL;DR tabi isn't cost effective in the early game, is cost neutral mid game and countering an extra few hundred worth of gold in the late game, but nothing remotely close to busted.
Ahristocats1 votesTL;DR tabi isn't cost effective in the early game
BestPudgeNA1 votes[{quoted}](name=Je suis Rubick,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Vh5I4lWv,comment-id=000300040000,timestamp=2018-03-29T09:33:25.239+0000)
Gold efficiency and cost effectiveness aren't the same thing. Gold efficiency is nonsense, movement speed has diminishing returns as does armor/mr. But AD/AP does not. If you wanna talk about gold efficiency though
Berserker's Greaves Gold 1100 (Gold 500)
Gold Value 35% attack speed = Gold 875 45 flat movement speed = Gold 540 Total Gold Value = Gold 1415
Gold Efficiency*
Berserker's Greaves item Berserker's Greaves are 128.64% gold efficient.
i know
and berserker's don't have any passive
also you talk about movement speed and armor having diminishing return but at the same time you were talking about ninja tabis in early game
LUL
BestPudgeNA1 votes[{quoted}](name=Je suis Rubick,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Vh5I4lWv,comment-id=00030004000000000000,timestamp=2018-03-29T17:35:56.779+0000) also you talk about movement speed and armor having diminishing return but at the same time you were talking about ninja tabis in early game
LUL
The diminishing returns start at 0 armor... Going for 20-50 armor reduces damage by 16% more 50-80 is 11% more. Literally before finishing the first item you're already getting like 33% less from the armor gains
This is literally the only reason Tabi are good because the 10% passive doesn't have diminishing returns.
IamN00BL0rd7 voteswhen you have to build tabis despite enemy having cc in on top jg and support, solely due to the amount of damage an adc can deal in a team fight. that is a problem. but adcs and mids are the poster childs of lol so i doubt anything would be changed. too spoiled by the game, if anything is touch, oh god the crying.
SirLime6 votesThis nerf is way too large. 10 Armor is huge. At least buff the auto % reduction back to 12%. Moreover, if you look on stat sites, Ninja Tabi don't perform any better than other boot choices. They're just more generally useful since everything does physical damage (monsters, turrets, champions etc.) and it's the biggest threat late game.
AirKingNeo9 voteshow about nerf adcs so the item isn't a top lane rush and also not a balance crutch?
Somebody Love Me2 votesI dont rush tabis top because of ADCs. I rush it because it's the only way to deal with the stat checky right click champs that live up there.
ZJD1234 votes[{quoted}](name=Actual Trash,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Vh5I4lWv,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2018-03-28T05:16:07.625+0000)
stat checky right click champs
ADCs?
Somebody Love Me1 votesBesides Vayne and Quinn, ADCs don't really live up top.
My Waifu Vanilla1 votes
It's almost like not all auto attack based champions are marksman (which is synonymous nowadays with ADC since no one refers to melees as ADCs).
Salron1 votesYea i'm rushing tabis as a melee champion vs another melee AD champion in the top lane because of ADCs
Did you even think before writing this post?
AirKingNeo2 votesI'm saying adcs are why it's a balance crutch.
Automated Riven1 votesNinja tabis are bought like 4-5 times as often as other boots. And multiple people on both teams have them. So ya they are pretty good. Plus considering that both toplaners almost always go tabis they would by default only hit 50%. If it's over 50% that just means that the team who builds more tabis wins more games.
MadViking5 votesTabis don't need a nerf, but the other boots need buffs.
AirKingNeo21 votessounds like powercreep
Sasogwa3 votesTrue but at the same time if you consider mercs, not only did they use to give 35% tenacity, but at the time tenacity was valuable on most CC not like nowadays where like half the CC is knockup crap, and the rest is permaslow against which reducing duration is futile. Swiftness has been a bit overnerfed since the last time it was meta
AirKingNeo1 votesTabi is just the most effective in lane and against ADCs. Mercs should affect knockups, but you would probably still take Tabi just do ADC doesn't kill you as fast.
Wînter Fox5 votes[{quoted}](name=Rito Games,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Vh5I4lWv,comment-id=,timestamp=2018-03-27T20:26:59.191+0000)
Ninja Tabi is your one armor option without having to build full tanks items. It's the only way to get some relief from AD damage, especially ADCs, without spending 2400+ gold and for some reason everyone keeps building it.
For this reason Ninja Tabi needed to be nerfed.
[zombie-brand-facepalm]
Mokuto Bunshi1 votesOnly was to get relief... wait what adc's buy that thing other than Lucian?
NemeBro2 votesWhy don't they compensate for the nerf by giving typically fighter armour items a bit more armour then? That way they aren't hurt by late game ADC DPS any more than they are now, but tabi rush top lane is no longer such a deciding factor.
My Waifu Vanilla1 votesBecause way back when they actively gave all the fighter items health over armor and gave them absurd base stats to compensate. If you want armor on a fighter you can go DMP or even Randuins if you want but there is a reason Steraks, BC, Mallet, and such all give a large amount of health and no other defensive stats. It's been that way since the juggernaut patch.
NemeBro1 votes[{quoted}](name=My Waifu Vanilla,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Vh5I4lWv,comment-id=00090000,timestamp=2018-03-28T20:41:37.326+0000)
Because way back when they actively gave all the fighter items health over armor and gave them absurd base stats to compensate. If you want armor on a fighter you can go DMP or even Randuins if you want but there is a reason Steraks, BC, Mallet, and such all give a large amount of health and no other defensive stats. It's been that way since the juggernaut patch.
Back then ninja tabi also had 30 armour instead of 20, hence why it's a compensation buff to their mid to late game items.
Does this make sense to you?
Nea1042 votesWhat about get rid of damage, instead of defences? Tabis, Celestial body, Heal...
AirKingNeo2 votesNo one used Celestial Body.
Heal was nerfed to make ADCs more vulnerable and has no bearing in this conversation.
Killer of Night91 votesWelp yasuo and tryndamere are balanced around IE... Also rengar / shaco / master yi build it sometime... I would like adc less bursty at all / more AA reliant (wich mean less DPS on single hit but encourage more AA). I would add +5% atk speed to all zeal item +up the cost to a larger value and change the IF passive from +50% to +30-50% based on level for ranged only. The only issue is ER balance (maybe the CD can scale with level but not sure) Another version consist to drag off (15/10 AD on IF and ER and give it a new passive that grant it back on lv) (Eg IF and ER new stat (from 70ad to 55ad) + 20% critical chance new passive Soul's power: This item will grant a bonus of 1-15 (or 1-10 if they should be too powerful) ad based on level if the owner is ranged (15 ad if it's melee)) Also a small buff to kindred for compensate on his E early game damage. I think the first case (%crit dmg modifier feel less strange but ER will be too powerful compared) The second case feel quite better and drag a lot of power down early/mid game to both item also giving to zeal more cost(+300-400g but +5% atk speed make adc more atk relevant than 3 shot bullet but increase by a lot the fact to get double zeal item after 35 min rather than 25 min. Actually it's possible to drag more power from IF and ER AD but i think it's enough around 55(+1-10/15). With this change maybe BT first item could be a better idea (less burst/more sustain). The only tough that i get is if Letality can be a good replacement to IF as early game item.
AirKingNeo3 votesYasuo can be buffed. Tryndamere is terrible design, so I don't give a fuck about him.
Just increase zeal and it's items by 100 cost. No extra stats. ADCs scale too well.
Just make IE's crit mod 35%. If it scales with level, ADC is still broken as fuck late game.
That's really all that needs to happen besides maybe Berserker boots lose 5% AS.
Killer of Night91 votesI'm sure they're suppose to be good on late game but nerfing the IE critical damage to 35% would make ER adc first item more strong compared to IF adc first item. Also Ashe is based completely around Critical modifier so a nerf to IE critical damage wil literally kill her dmg output. I tough about a RAMP UP version of IF (Reducing the IE and ER ad by 5 and buff yasuo+trynda + make a ramp up mechanix for critical damage (Ranged: +20% critical damage that up by 5% every auto for a max of 50% versus the targed (last after 4s with a refresh by AA enemy))(Melee:+50% critical damage)). With a stack item adc are weak against squishi (They need 6 auto to make the same critical damage so it's not bursty + reward the use of AA and will be a good item against tank without losing the IF/ER split) This version maybe get a problem (Jhin/graves who got a reload on their kit)
AirKingNeo2 votesYou can buff Ashe.
Ramp up is a shitty idea because they stack on a tank and then kill you in 4-5 autos. Also needlessly nerfs Lucian, Draven.
Killer of Night92 votesYou can buff Ashe.
Ramp up is a shitty idea because they stack on a tank and then kill you in 4-5 autos. Also needlessly nerfs Lucian, Draven.
Welp Lucian has too much trouble late game but it could be fixed by not allowing this effect as effect on hit + the effect it's not apply on the user but on the enemy target (If i'm AA the tank i will get the ramp up critical damage only vs the tank and not vs all). I don't get why it should be good on draven rather than other adc because it rely more on using AA than 2 shot and kill...