"I ran in 1v5, without my team being in range to follow up on my dice, proceeded to be kited for the next 5-7 seconds and died. Wtf tanks are so weak, lethality is fucking broken why can't I walk in 1v5 and kill their carry and then come out with 40% hp remaining, remember the good ole days when tanks didn't die in 2 seconds which was never??"
Mizaya21 votesWell that ain't fair. I picked a tank I didn't expect to have to play smartly...
TyrekGoldenspear4 votesWell you just triggered tank mains lol.
Bouncemaster Zac12 votesImplying tanks aren't the most worthless they've ever been because damage and pen are the highest and most readily available they've ever been.
HateDaddy5 votes[{quoted}](name=Get Blobbed,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=VfEXAhRk,comment-id=000d,timestamp=2017-02-15T04:00:01.279+0000)
Implying tanks aren't the most worthless they've ever been because damage and pen are the highest and most readily available they've ever been.
Everyone knows lethality is overtuned. Tanks are fine and likely aren't suffering too much in terms of their durability. Their viability may be weakened simply by virtue of lethality being busted currently and that makes lethality champs fotm.
Bouncemaster Zac14 votesEveryone knows lethality is overtuned. Tanks are fine and likely aren't suffering too much in terms of their durability. Their viability may be weakened simply by virtue of lethality being busted currently and that makes lethality champs fotm.
Tanks are nowhere near fine right now. Few of them are viable at all due to the fact that yes, they die almost instantly these days. If you look at what tanks are considered strong right now and why you'll notice a trend. Poppy is considered strong because she has a big shield with a long uptime... and does a lot of damage. Naut is considered strong because he has a big shield with a lot of uptime... and does a lot of damage. Sion has a big shield with a lot of uptime... and great base damages (provided he hits his spells.) The tanks that are considered strong right now aren't those with and real resistance-based durability or cc. It's based on having burst-durability (aka shields) because that's the only way to survive being a frontliner, and more importantly they have to have high damage. Because that's what the game has come to these days. Who does the most damage the most quickly. There's a reason Sejuani and Amumu aren't viable despite having loads of cc and built in resists.
HateDaddy4 votes[{quoted}](name=Get Blobbed,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=VfEXAhRk,comment-id=000d00000000,timestamp=2017-02-15T04:35:47.778+0000)
Tanks are nowhere near fine right now. Few of them are viable at all due to the fact that yes, they die almost instantly these days. If you look at what tanks are considered strong right now and why you'll notice a trend. Poppy is considered strong because she has a big shield with a long uptime... and does a lot of damage. Naut is considered strong because he has a big shield with a lot of uptime... and does a lot of damage. Sion has a big shield with a lot of uptime... and great base damages (provided he hits his spells.) The tanks that are considered strong right now aren't those with and real resistance-based durability or cc. It's based on having burst-durability (aka shields) because that's the only way to survive being a frontliner, and more importantly they have to have high damage. Because that's what the game has come to these days. Who does the most damage the most quickly. There's a reason Sejuani and Amumu aren't viable despite having loads of cc and built in resists.
Sej and amumu are junglers and the new jungle did them no favors. It has nothing to do with shields because Maokai is the best tank in the game right now and he gets no shield.
You're completely overreacting and off base. I have no issues with Sej and amumu buffs because they are underperforming as junglers but that's because their clears suck and they're easily exploited in the early game. They just need their early clears buffed.
Knoyle6 votesWhy would Maokai need a shield when he has built in sustain, high as fuck base damages and straight up damage reduction. All this with a spell that makes you untargetable albeit half a second and roots people. Besides you can just run courage on him anyway. Of course he is the strongest. He's practically a bruiser.
JavelinJoe10 votesGotta build that health too or else 600 armor is shit for defensive stats. Just because you have 4 
, 
and 
vs an all AD team does not mean you will be as "tanky" as you think you are. The amount of health you have is a major factor in your overall tankyness.
HateDaddy7 votesGotta build that health too or else 600 armor is shit for defensive stats. Just because you have 4
ye
JavelinJoe3 votesYou would be shocked to know how many players apparently do not get this. They see Rammus and Malphite and think "I bet if I max full armor on this guy I would basically be a immortal God vs any full AD team" and I'm just sitting here like "Nope, you are gonna die unless you grab anywhere from around 1500-3000 health along with that armor.
That being said, 
can be absolutely busted on Rammus if he has 
and maybe 
too because of its passive sustain. It applies on his W's return damage too if I am not mistaken.
Crett9 votesyeah i think many tanks would be problems if they were tanky enough to do that, (namely rammus and malphite) but some tanks should really live longer than they do. especially sion
but there WAS a time tanks didnt die in 2 seconds
RexSaur4 votesyeah i think many tanks would be problems if they were tanky enough to do that, (namely rammus and malphite) but some tanks should really live longer than they do. especially sion
but there WAS a time tanks didnt die in 2 seconds
It was the same time where tanks couldnt 1v1 any class other than supports, the more cc/initiation they had the less damage they did so they were purely focused on team fights, which was a lot more balanced then the nowdays maokai/poppy/naut/whatever.
UnboundCreator4 votesyeah i think many tanks would be problems if they were tanky enough to do that, (namely rammus and malphite) but some tanks should really live longer than they do. especially sion
but there WAS a time tanks didnt die in 2 seconds
That was also the time when tanks didnt one shot squishies
Niyumi8 votesTranslation: I'm playing Rammus with 540 armor and 4k health and MF kills me in half a second with or without her ult.
HateDaddy53 votesTranslation: I'm playing Rammus with 540 armor and 4k health and MF kills me in half a second with or without her ult.
sometimes I enjoy a side of nachos with my plate of bullshit.
LankPants41 votesLet's actually drop the maths on that.
A fairly standard 5 item MF build is 
and an 
. With this build and the 24 lethality page + 18/12/0 spec she has 310 bonus AD for 373 total AD. She also has 59 lethality.
Let's start by working out what our 540 Rammus's armour will be VS this, Rammus has a base armour of 104. That means the calc for the pen are (540x.7)x.093-(540-104)x0.45-59=96 total armour. With 96 armour Rammus has 1.96x as much EHP as HP, so 7.84k EHP VS the MF.
Now the question is how much damage does MFs ult do? MFs Ult has 16 waves at 75% total AD scaling+3 for AP from masteries, that's a total of 283 per wave, or 4524 total damage, this is multiplied by 1.15 by LDR and 1.05 by DeS, for a total of 5463 raw damage, around two thirds of a full tank Rammus's HP.
So Rammus won't literally die to an MF ult, although if anything else hits him in the duration he probably will die since it's dealing over half of his HP. If you sub in most other tanks and don't give 540 armour (which most tanks don't have the luxury of) they drop to under 500 from just an MF ult.
Let me quickly get the numbers for a 350 armour 100 base armour tank, more in the range of sanity for most champs. At 350 armour that equation becomes (350x.7)x.093-(350-100)x0.45-59=56, they only have 6.24k with the same 4K HP. That Bullet time is now so close to killing them that an extra AA from the MF will probably do it.
This is what pen is doing to tanks right now, it's knocking off so much armour that they just fail at their job of tanking.
HateDaddy9 votesLet's actually drop the maths on that.
A fairly standard 5 item MF build is
Let's start by working out what our 540 Rammus's armour will be VS this, Rammus has a base armour of 104. That means the calc for the pen are (540x.7)x.093-(540-104)x0.45-59=96 total armour. With 96 armour Rammus has 1.96x as much EHP as HP, so 7.84k EHP VS the MF.
Now the question is how much damage does MFs ult do? MFs Ult has 16 waves at 75% total AD scaling+3 for AP from masteries, that's a total of 283 per wave, or 4524 total damage, this is multiplied by 1.15 by LDR and 1.05 by DeS, for a total of 5463 raw damage, around two thirds of a full tank Rammus's HP.
So Rammus won't literally die to an MF ult, although if anything else hits him in the duration he probably will die since it's dealing over half of his HP. If you sub in most other tanks and don't give 540 armour (which most tanks don't have the luxury of) they drop to under 500 from just an MF ult.
Let me quickly get the numbers for a 350 armour 100 base armour tank, more in the range of sanity for most champs. At 350 armour that equation becomes (350x.7)x.093-(350-100)x0.45-59=56, they only have 6.24k with the same 4K HP. That Bullet time is now so close to killing them that an extra AA from the MF will probably do it.
This is what pen is doing to tanks right now, it's knocking off so much armour that they just fail at their job of tanking.
Why in gods name are you standing in a fully channeled MF ult and not interrupting her lmao
And this is a terrible spell to compare the rest of lethality + armor pen to. If you stand still and let something attack you without retaliating, then yes you will die faster. It doesn't matter what they build.
LankPants28 votesIt's not always an option to get out of MFs ult, CC exists in the game, MF even has a fairly strong slow on her kit. It's also not always black and white, sometimes you stay in it for a few shots to get a chance at interrupting it. It's also just a giant fucking AOE, it can often be quite hard to escape due to its shear size.
The point was more that lethality does way too much to tanks and really just everyone. The most important number you should take from that isn't the MF's ult damage, that's just an example of how quickly a tank can potentially die if the situation allows. The important number is what the Rammus's armour drops to, 114 armour, he has 10 more than his base armour when he obtained 436 more armour than base. Why is it ever OK to ignore 8720 gold worth of stats. That's absurd and something needs to be done about it.
And yes, tanks fucking melt on this patch, because the current state of pen makes it almost impossible to gather any armour. If you're denying that you're being incredibly biased.
HateDaddy8 votesIt's not always an option to get out of MFs ult, CC exists in the game, MF even has a fairly strong slow on her kit. It's also not always black and white, sometimes you stay in it for a few shots to get a chance at interrupting it. It's also just a giant fucking AOE, it can often be quite hard to escape due to its shear size.
And we are talking about the one class in the game where many of them have targeted CC...
Look, I'm not pretending lethality isn't a bit overtuned currently because it most certainly is but tanks didn't suddenly become unviable. It's not black and white, you are correct but assuming that a tank will take a full channel MF ult every time it happens falls under that same faulty logic. The spell has always been powerful in that way. If she fully channels it on your team, it hurts.
The point was more that lethality does way too much to tanks and really just everyone. The most important number you should take from that isn't the MF's ult damage, that's just an example of how quickly a tank can potentially die if the situation allows. The important number is what the Rammus's armour drops to, 114 armour, he has 10 more than his base armour when he obtained 436 more armour than base. Why is it ever OK to ignore 8720 gold worth of stats. That's absurd and something needs to be done about it.
Why should 8720 gold nullify 30k+ gold an entire team (assuming 3 ADs) spends on damage/pen? That is absurd.
And yes, tanks fucking melt on this patch, because the current state of pen makes it almost impossible to gather any armour. If you're denying that you're being incredibly biased.
Tanks aren't melting. Are they dying slightly faster? Sure, but we all know lethality is a bit overtuned and BC is getting nerfed. But the complaint that tanks instadie now is just completely inaccurate and I know this because:
A) i play tanks and bruisers and I'm not dying significantly faster than i was last patch
B) these full lethality + percentage pen builds work on a very small handful of champions. And in each case, there's plenty of room to play around those champions and prevent them from doing that absurd level of damage.
So no, I'm not bias because I play tanks and play this game intelligently. I'd describe myself as someone being rational and logical.
LankPants25 votesSo no, I'm not bias because I play tanks and play this game intelligently. I'd describe myself as someone being rational and logical.
Let's take a second to actually look at the main tank you play. Maokai is one of the least affected tanks by pen. He has a 20% damage reduction that cannot be penned through. At 100 armour after pen Maokai effectively has 150 armour due to his ultimate. This isn't true for most tanks. Even if you pen Maokai all the way down to 0 Armour his ult still effectivly gives him 25 armour.
Most tanks don't get this. If I get penned to 100 armour as Sejuani I'm made of fucking glass. The pen is far more effective against me than you because I don't have the 20% buffer. The closest thing I have is my passive which gets shredded by pen.
Looking down your profile, you lose a lot of games (well over 50% due to chance) as Nasus, Jax and Malphite vs lethality on this patch. When you don't have your crutch DR that allows Maokai to function currently, you don't function vs pen, shocker right? Interestingly, if I open these games up the pen champ almost always has about 2x everyone else's damage. It's almost like you can't handle pen.
Why should 8720 gold nullify 30k+ gold an entire team (assuming 3 ADs) spends on damage/pen? That is absurd.
If you have 3 ADCs, yes. You should get dicked by armour to the point where you can't function. This shouldn't even be a question, try putting together a better team comp.
HateDaddy4 votesLet's take a second to actually look at the main tank you play. Maokai is one of the least affected tanks by pen. He has a 20% damage reduction that cannot be penned through. At 100 armour after pen Maokai effectively has 150 armour due to his ultimate. This isn't true for most tanks. Even if you pen Maokai all the way down to 0 Armour his ult still effectivly gives him 25 armour.
Maokais damage reduction only applies to area of effect abilities. So many spells ignore this damage reduction, auto attacks included obviously. Maokai is a very strong tank, I've never denied this. So is Nautilus, so is poppy, even Shen is seeing some play again.
Edit: I want to clarify that I was wrong about my initial statement. It seems maokais ult actually totally reduces all non turret damage now, this was a change over from his old ult which only reduced AoE damage. Nevertheless, this doesn't change much because almost every true innate tank has a massive defensive steroid in their kit whether it be in the form of percentage damage reduction, shields or massive regen.
Most tanks don't get this. If I get penned to 100 armour as Sejuani I'm made of fucking glass. The pen is far more effective against me than you because I don't have the 20% buffer. The closest thing I have is my passive which gets shredded by pen.
If your complaint is that Sej sucks, then let that be your complaint. Some tanks are strong, some aren't but there's plenty of viable tanks right now to suggest tanks are fine. I'm totally not against the idea of buffing underperforming tanks. I'm just calling bullshit when I see outrageous statements that aren't true, one obviously being tanks instadying and the other being tanks suck.
Looking down your profile, you lose a lot of games (well over 50% chance) as Nasus, Jax and Malphite vs lethality on this patch. When you don't have your crutch DR that allows Maokai to function currently, you don't function vs pen, shocker right? Interestingly, if I open these games up the pen champ almost always has about 2x everyone else's damage. It's almost like you can't handle pen.
It's interesting but I prefer fighting those full AD comps as Nasus/Jax because typically they have less utility and are easier to kill. Most of my losses come from flex queue, where I don't really give a shit if we win or lose because I'm typically just playing with friends. So these losses don't speak to much, I generally perform well when I'm actually trying in solo queue. But this has nothing to do with my performance, it's totally irrelevant in fact.
If you have 3 ADCs, yes. You should get dicked by armour to the point where you can't function. This shouldn't even be a question, try putting together a better team comp.
It doesn't matter if they're ADCs or AD casters, 3 AD champions are spending 30k+ gold on their damage/pen, why should your 8k gold nullify all of that? Come on now, be reasonable.
LankPants21 votesMaokais damage reduction only applies to area of effect abilities. So many spells ignore this damage reduction, auto attacks included obviously. Maokai is a very strong tank, I've never denied this. So is Nautilus, so is poppy, even Shen is seeing some play again.
ACTIVE: Maokai creates a magical vortex around himself for up to 10 seconds, reducing non-turret damage dealt to himself and allies in the vortex by 20% for the duration and storing double the amount absorbed, capping at Vengeful Maelstrom's base damage.
All non turret damage is reduced. The AOE part is all allies in the AOE. If you don't even understand something as basic as this it shows that your opinions have very little understanding behind them.
Also you might want to take a look at post 7.2 games, the only two tanks who actually see play right now are Maokai and Shen as a specific counter to Maokai. All other tanks have dropped off heavily, they just can't play into the other bullshit in top lane.
It doesn't matter if they're ADCs or AD casters, 3 AD champions are spending 30k+ gold on their damage/pen, why should your 8k gold nullify all of that? Come on now, be reasonable.
Because you were retarded enough to put together a full AD team comp which lacks durability by picking 3 AD squishy champions. If you put together a team that utterly retarded you deserve to be hard countered.
This is why season 2 had it right. If you pick a full AD comp that tank gets to stack as much armour as they want. If there was a mage they'd die to them in a second, but because you picked retarded you're shit out of luck.
There needs to be an element of rock-paper-scissors hard counter in the game where if you pick badly enough you lose for it. No way around it, ya fucked up. 3 ADCs should fall under this, if you do that a tank just gets to not worry about AP threat and can just go Rands/DMP/Tabi/Thornmail/FH and you never get to kill them. The solution to this would be to pick an AP champion so that the tank can't get away with this. The problem right now is that that build gets penned down to about 100 armour so you can pick your full retard comp and get away with it.
And I am being reasonable, full AD comps should suffer. They shouldn't be viable. You're ignoring a huge aspect of the game. When you ignore 50% of the game a win just shouldn't be possible.
HateDaddy2 votesACTIVE: Maokai creates a magical vortex around himself for up to 10 seconds, reducing non-turret damage dealt to himself and allies in the vortex by 20% for the duration and storing double the amount absorbed, capping at Vengeful Maelstrom's base damage.
All non turret damage is reduced. The AOE part is all allies in the AOE. If you don't even understand something as basic as this it shows that your opinions have very little understanding behind them.
My opinion on one thing was wrong due to it being different in the past. And I clarified to boot, not to mention it doesn't change my argument in any meaningful way.
Also you might want to take a look at post 7.2 games, the only two tanks who actually see play right now are Maokai and Shen as a specific counter to Maokai. All other tanks have dropped off heavily, they just can't play into the other bullshit in top lane.
I don't expect tanks to dominate the win charts right now because I have said countless times again lethality is broken because it got overtuned and that will be addressed, as well BC. This will be balanced out once lethality is properly tuned. But to say tanks are suddenly terrible, unviable and weak is incorrect. Tanks are fine, lethality abusers are simply busted right now.
Because you were retarded enough to put together a full AD team comp which lacks durability by picking 3 AD squishy champions. If you put together a team that utterly retarded you deserve to be hard countered.
This is why season 2 had it right. If you pick a full AD comp that tank gets to stack as much armour as they want. If there was a mage they'd die to them in a second, but because you picked retarded you're shit out of luck.
No; that just makes for bad gameplay. In no universe should 8k gold ignore 30k gold worth of stats. And even then, it still does a prettt darn good job of reducing its effectiveness.
There needs to be an element of rock-paper-scissors hard counter in the game where if you pick badly enough you lose for it. No way around it, ya fucked up. 3 ADCs should fall under this, if you do that a tank just gets to not worry about AP threat and can just go Rands/DMP/Tabi/Thornmail/FH and you never get to kill them. The solution to this would be to pick an AP champion so that the tank can't get away with this. The problem right now is that that build gets penned down to about 100 armour so you can pick your full retard comp and get away with it.
No, there doesn't. That's what made the game so uninteresting in the past. Gameplay above all else. And I don't have issues with classes and champions have inherent advantages over others, just not anything so simple as "I pick this so I automatically beat you." There's a lot of flaws with that both in logic and in consistent gameplay.
3 ADCs likely does lose in most cases, but because lethality is overtuned right now, naturally that's slightly less true. But many of these "ADCs" don't really function as bot lane ADCs anymore. Graves and Quinn in particular are great examples of this. Graves is fucking stupid, so we likely agree on this. And as much as I hate Quinn, she does have her drawbacks. But these two don't really function in the ADC role anymore so we should be careful labeling them as such because they tend to function closer to assassins/bruisers than ADCs and should probably be balanced with a flavor of that element.
And I am being reasonable, full AD comps should suffer. They shouldn't be viable. You're ignoring a huge aspect of the game. When you ignore 50% of the game a win just shouldn't be possible.
You are being completely unreasonable and bias. It's really that simple.
LankPants14 votesNo, there doesn't. That's what made the game so uninteresting in the past. Gameplay above all else. And I don't have issues with classes and champions have inherent advantages over others, just not anything so simple as "I pick this so I automatically beat you." There's a lot of flaws with that both in logic and in consistent gameplay.
You mean like season 2, which is generally hailed as the peak of League? I assure you full AD teams were the least viable when player satisfaction with the game was at its peak.
We're also not just talking about a single champion, we're talking about an entire team comp. There's very few 1v1 hardcounters in League, most of them that do exist tend to involve tanks on the losing end, IE. Alistar or Leona vs Janna.
If your team comp is bad enough it's OK for it to be hard countered. This keeps champion diversity in the game, it's a good thing to have champs and even classes that say "your team is too heavily loaded in this way so you have no options VS me". It means that you can't play 3 ADs and have a chance at winning. You need some diversity in your comp. Pick tanks so Katarina or Yi don't run trough your comp, pick a mix of damage so tanks don't become invincible, don't pick all tanks so you don't just lose DPS wars. These are important rules to have because they stop the game from devolving into a 3 class shitfest like it has now. All you see currently are poke heavy ADCs, Divers and assassins. They're just the best right now. If the rules I laid out were adhered to more closely you'd see tanks and mages rather than what we have now.
HateDaddy2 votesYou mean like season 2, which is generally hailed as the peak of League? I assure you full AD teams were the least viable when player satisfaction with the game was at its peak.
In terms of balance, season 2 was absolute garbage. You had permanently banned champs that would never see a game because of how busted they were (s2 Kassadin, s2 malphite), supports and junglers legit got no gold, the game was decided by which ADC got GA first, AD casters and most assassins in general sucked. The game was considered to be at its peak because this was when it really exploded into the scene as the best game and it was riding such a huge wave of momentum that no amount of terrible balance could change that. The game, by every metric imaginable, is significantly better now in terms of balance. It just is, Rioters say this frequently. And it's because as time has gone on, they've developed better ways to balance the game through specific methods and just having a better general understanding of it.
We're also not just talking about a single champion, we're talking about an entire team comp. There's very few 1v1 hardcounters in League, most of them that do exist tend to involve tanks on the losing end, IE. Alistar or Leona vs Janna.
That has nothing to do with them being inadequate tanks. Both are hard engage champions and Janna counters hard engage. In truth, the lane phase isn't even all that terrible for Leona and Alistar anymore because Janna has been nerfed. There are a few other hard counters in this game but they continue to be phased out more and more and with good reason.
If your team comp is bad enough it's OK for it to be hard countered. This keeps champion diversity in the game, it's a good thing to have champs and even classes that say "your team is too heavily loaded in this way so you have no options VS me". It means that you can't play 3 ADs and have a chance at winning. You need some diversity in your comp. Pick tanks so Katarina or Yi don't run trough your comp, pick a mix of damage so tanks don't become invincible, don't pick all tanks so you don't just lose DPS wars. These are important rules to have because they stop the game from devolving into a 3 class shitfest like it has now. All you see currently are poke heavy ADCs, Divers and assassins. They're just the best right now. If the rules I laid out were adhered to more closely you'd see tanks and mages rather than what we have now.
Dude, the patch has been out for two weeks. The patch is an outlier, we have one clearly busted stat that we both know is going to be addressed. You're so full of shit that you aren't capable of seeing how utterly wrong you are. We were literally just in a tank/mage dominated meta where you were seeing 1-2 tanks and 1-2, sometimes 3 mages on one team. Hell, you're still seeing mages push supports out of the support role. So don't give me this crock of shit that the game is suddenly in this horrific state of balance and has been for quite some time when this patch is simply one bad patch where one star got overtuned and naturally, that's going to be reflected by champions who excel with this stat. Once it gets balanced out, and it will, the game will be fine. As for the rest of what you said, I'm sorry, I just don't have the patience to have this discussion peacefully anymore so this will be where I close it out to avoid being an asshat to you and more importantly, preventing myself from getting banned.
Ratbert11 votesWell at least in s2 you actually had enough bans to ban everyone you needed to (bronzodia +kass) and supports and junglers were gated by actually being designed for those positions so you didn't have mage supports or adc junglers. Most broken thing that would reliably slip through is probably ap yi.
What's wrong with getting no gold when you're still an effective member of the team? All giving more gold to supports with the ambient gold increase, sightstone, starter support items and trinkets has done is allowed shit like zyra support to exist.
Leonerdo3 votesBlack Cleaver and Last Whisper items don't stack like that. Try (((350*.7) - 100)*.55 + 100)*.93 - 59 = 108 armor. So just over 8k EHP on a standard tank vs. your MF build. He'd still have roughly a third of his health, after standing in a full-build MF ult for the full duration, assuming he received no healing or shields, not even from CoC. I'd say that's acceptable.
Edit: Oh and the ult takes 3 seconds, not half a second. So the original comment is definitely bullshit.
LankPants8 votesThe order is %reduction, flat reduction, %pen, flat pen. That means the first thing that applies is TBC, then Masteries, then LDR, then lethality. LDR also gives 0 fucks what your total armour is, it just checks your bonus armour as a whole. Because of this it's actually possible for the number LDR checks to be higher than your total armour at the time, thanks to basically lazy coding.
The numbers I posted are correct, it's disgusting how much armour lethality/LDR builds can take away.
Also it's not acceptable. There's a good reason why pirate slut has a 54%+ win rate, it's because she's a bonkers champ who really needs nerfs ASAP.
Edit: Oh and the ult takes 3 seconds, not half a second. So the original comment is definitely bullshit.
That is completely true, it's not possible for an MF to kill a tank in half a sec unless the tank was DCed and is massively underleveled or some shit. Due to the state of lethality currently it is possible for a couple of assassins when used together to kill a tank in half a second though, I'm pretty sure that a Talon and a Rengar with lethality builds + a LDR can instantly kill a tank if they jump on them at the same time which really needs to not be a thing.
Leonerdo2 votesAight, my formula is a little forgiving, yours is the opposite, so I'll use what the folks over on the Wiki used for their example on this page, which is halfway between our formulas.
(((250*.55) + 100)*.7*.93 - 59 = 95.6 armor. So just under 8k EHP. Unless you can prove your formula is correct somehow, well, I won't believe you.
And MF is bonkers because she, perhaps more than any other ADC, doesn't care about AAs except to proc her passive. She has always favored armor pen, and right now it's too strong. She's also a strong lane bully, who synergizes especially well with Ghostblade as a first item. After Ghostblade gets nerfed (and there will probably be more lethality nerfs that haven't been decided/revealed yet), she'll be fine... probably.
LankPants5 votesYour problem is that you're applying LDR first, it's unquestionable that TBC applies first and you can load up a custom game and test this, give yourself TBC and hit a training dummy, it's armour drops even when you aren't actively inflicting damage, so that 0.7 has to be the first operation.
Mizaya5 votesLet's actually drop the maths on that.
A fairly standard 5 item MF build is
Let's start by working out what our 540 Rammus's armour will be VS this, Rammus has a base armour of 104. That means the calc for the pen are (540x.7)x.093-(540-104)x0.45-59=96 total armour. With 96 armour Rammus has 1.96x as much EHP as HP, so 7.84k EHP VS the MF.
Now the question is how much damage does MFs ult do? MFs Ult has 16 waves at 75% total AD scaling+3 for AP from masteries, that's a total of 283 per wave, or 4524 total damage, this is multiplied by 1.15 by LDR and 1.05 by DeS, for a total of 5463 raw damage, around two thirds of a full tank Rammus's HP.
So Rammus won't literally die to an MF ult, although if anything else hits him in the duration he probably will die since it's dealing over half of his HP. If you sub in most other tanks and don't give 540 armour (which most tanks don't have the luxury of) they drop to under 500 from just an MF ult.
Let me quickly get the numbers for a 350 armour 100 base armour tank, more in the range of sanity for most champs. At 350 armour that equation becomes (350x.7)x.093-(350-100)x0.45-59=56, they only have 6.24k with the same 4K HP. That Bullet time is now so close to killing them that an extra AA from the MF will probably do it.
This is what pen is doing to tanks right now, it's knocking off so much armour that they just fail at their job of tanking.
Well, that is calculated incorrectly. I was hoping you'd have gotten it right so I wouldn't have to do this, But...
First, we have to consider that Black Cleaver takes six rounds of MF ult to achieve full percentage reduction, so we'll calculate it wave by wave until that point is reached.
And pretty much everything except the lethality will be multiplicatively stacking with LDR, not additively as it seems to be in your calculations which is big.
The formula for effective armor is... [((1 - 0.05t) 104) x 0.93)] + [((1-0.05t) 436) x 0.55 x 0.93)] - 59 where t is stacks of black cleaver, up to 6.
So calculating the effective armor on hit value for the first 7 waves and damage, we get:
Formula:
(100 x 1.15 x 1.02 x 276.5) / (100 + Eff. Armor)
Total damage: ~1889.9
Full build rammus typically has at least 4k health. If you itemized full armor, that's health from randuins, sunfire, deadman's, hell throw in a warmogs and you're nearing 5k.
So, in conclusion, 540 armor rammus will lose at most SLIGHTLY near half of his health at most to a fully channeled MF ulti. This is entirely theoretical, and would probably never actually happen in a real game. I did this calculation in about an hour because I'm really inefficient at this, but I didn't want people to have the wrong idea about how strong lethality + armor pen is. For everyone who upvoted that original post, I suggest go look on the LoL wiki to learn more about how this stuff is actually calculated. This isn't hard, you just need to read carefully and plug that shit into a graphing calculator.
LankPants4 votesIf you take the average over 16 hits it winds up being over 25% anyway, the difference between just assuming 30% and actually accounting for every hit becomes increasingly negligible over large amounts of hits, MFs ult has pretty much the most ticks out of any ability in the game, so it's very close to just being 30% on the whole ult.
Full build rammus typically has at least 4k health. If you itemized full armor, that's health from randuins, sunfire, deadman's, hell throw in a warmogs and you're nearing 5k.
If you itemise that you don't have 540 armour, you'd end taking more damage even though you have more HP, the difference wouldn't be huge. You also don't build Sunfire on Rammus because he's a jungler, so you get Cinderhulk and have 4 slots available. To get to the 4k HP number you would build Rands and DMP anyway. So we have 2 slots left, our armour is around 370 right now, so how do we reach the 540 armour listed? The only way is to buy 2 armour items, most likely Thornmail for 100 and GA for 60, that puts us right in the neighbourhood of 4k HP and 540 armour, the listed specifications. If you want to go Warmogs ya ain't getting 540 armour.
I bet without even looking the exact build the Rammus had was 
, which is a solid Rammus build anyway, with his W it gives enough MR and it gives very solid anti AD against everything other than the BS lethality in the game right now.
Penns1 votesYeah lets use one of the most broken champs that obviously needs a nerf + some of the most broken items that obviously need a nerf + an ult that has a lot of power because it is a fairly long channel that you can both walk out of and interrupt as example to show how weak tanks are.
Kappa
LankPants4 votesYeah lets use one of the most broken champs that obviously needs a nerf + some of the most broken items that obviously need a nerf + an ult that has a lot of power because it is a fairly long channel that you can both walk out of and interrupt as example to show how weak tanks are.
I used MF because the original commenter was talking about MF.
And yes, lethality is broken, that's why almost no tanks have worked on 7.2/7.3 at all. Tanks in general have been very weak since 6.24, the jungle changes made jungle tanks unplayable and support tanks don't like Redemption very much which makes them suboptimal. Before 7.2 there were strong tanks in the top lane, as it stands now Maokai is the only strong tank, most of the class is garbage.
Penns2 votesI wouldnt say tank junglers are weak, its just that carry junglers are even more broken. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UNaUsI7aWZg is pretty tru imo.
LankPants6 votesThanks for linking me a video where Gbay spends 10 minutes whining like a 3 year old who didn't get their own way. I've seen it already, it's not true or insightful, it's someone who doesn't like tanks crying for 10 minutes about how broken a generally struggling class is.
I wouldnt say tank junglers are weak,
Sejuani can barely even clear the jungle with perfectly optimised runes and masteries. Tank junglers are straight garbage right now, it's not even arguable.
Penns2 votesSeju still has over 50% wr and so do many other tank junglers. If tanks really were "struggling", Valkrin for example wouldnt pick a tank jungler JUST because his team doesnt have a tank and the enemy team does lol.
LankPants3 votesSeju still has over 50% wr and so do many other tank junglers.
No she doesn't you fucking fool. Stop using champ.gg, that site spits out pure garbage.
Look at some other more reliable stat sites.
Lolalytics:49.21% Leagueofgraphs:49.3% op.gg:48.63%
That's also with her super low pickrate. The only people who play her at this point are Sejuani players and they can't even break 50%.
Penns1 votesLolalytics updates every day and she had 50+ win rate for the last 2 days, so... lel Some tanks might be weak but you still need a tank, you pretty much cant win without one in higher elo unless you get ahead end at min 20. If anything, the problem is that Heca and Vi and stuff are assassins+tanks anyway.
LankPants4 votesSome tanks might be weak but you still need a tank, you pretty much cant win without one in higher elo unless you get ahead end at min 20.
I'm watching an LCK game right now where one of the teams is Rumble/Graves/Corki/Lucian/Karma. Tanks are not needed in high level play, you can play around not having a tank.
If anything, the problem is that Heca and Vi and stuff are assassins+tanks anyway.
Nerfing the top champs doesn't help with tanks general inability to clear the current jungle.
Lolalytics updates every day and she had 50+ win rate for the last 2 days, so... lel
Wow a sample size of 2 days. That could never happen by chance alone.
WiegrafOfValor1 votesADC mains are a pain in the ass, the cancer of this forum.
You math sticks and she could have killed the rammus if MF crit on her ult, cause that a thing.
LankPants8 votesMF doesn't build crit right now. Lethality stacking is just straight up better.
If I'd have used a crit build Rammus's armour would have been higher and he'd have took less damage even if the ult crit anyway.
SupaDevilJuice7 votesClearly buffing Riven would solve this problem.
PPPPPPPPPPPP2706 votesOffense is supposed to scale defense in this game.
Critmaster Garen26 votesOffense is supposed to scale defense in this game.
there is supposed to be a limit to how far offense scales over defense.
there is also nieche scenarios like retarded as shit full ad and full ap teamcomps that are supposed to be outscaled by certain tanks like rammus, malphite and galio.
LankPants15 votesthere is also nieche scenarios like retarded as shit full ad and full ap teamcomps that are supposed to be outscaled by certain tanks like rammus, malphite and galio.
I think full AD and full AP teamcomps should be outscaled by any tank, or even just a champ like Irelia building Rands, DMP, Tabi and FH. If you're dumb enough to put together a full AD or full AP team comp you deserve to get destroyed by resist stacking, it shouldn't take a dedicated armour tank to achieve that.
HateDaddy5 votesI think full AD and full AP teamcomps should be outscaled by any tank, or even just a champ like Irelia building Rands, DMP, Tabi and FH. If you're dumb enough to put together a full AD or full AP team comp you deserve to get destroyed by resist stacking, it shouldn't take a dedicated armour tank to achieve that.
Tanks don't typically end up losing games to full AP/AD comps because they aren't tanks enough, they'd lose because their teammates get killed faster than they can protect them and/or engage on the enemy. Tanks almost always have a huge advantage vs one specific comp in this nature but having room to play around them should exist. And that's how it is and it's how it should be because this game isn't rock, paper, scissors.
Sire Hippington2 votesAtleast if you don't add extra armorshred champs for that comp. I think it's fine when a full ad comp **can **work **IF **you use champs like garen and J4 that have aditional %armor-shred for their team.
hunterspec3 votes1v5? what did you expect?
HateDaddy20 votes[{quoted}](name=Queen Incest,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=VfEXAhRk,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2017-02-15T00:33:21.121+0000)
1v5? what did you expect?
"To fucking live forever because tanks suck right now that's fucking what."