Boards›Gameplay

Why is pantheon still allowed to exist?

HateDaddy··9 votes·3,543 views

Literally this champions entire point of existence is to be a lane dominator and that's fine. But the way he goes about it offers such little gameplay and his existence actually ends up being "they used pantheon to counterpick me, I don't actually get to play this game at all." How is that still okay after this long? It's not even about his scaling or whether he's strong, weak or in between. His entire existence is a direct contradiction to the direction of this game. He legitimately leaves his opponents with almost no options other than to sit back and take it and pray their jungler isn't a potatoe.

People talk about the yasuos and fioras of the world and how "unfun" they are but they pale in comparison to what pantheon is when he's used as a counterpick. Counterpick a are a part of the game and some counterpick do have a nature of being completely oppressive with little resistance but no champion is responsible for this more than Pantheon. If you're melee and not a god tier early game champion, you will succumb to him without significant help.

I know this board likes to protect pantheon for whatever reason but this is seriously one of the most outdated, unfun and worse designs in this game and it baffles me that he's still allowed to exist.

There's my QQ thread for the week

53 Comments

Spitfirë2 votes

There are picks that leave him null and void. Pantheon is a "Meh" champion. You don't actually see him a whole lot.

HateDaddy6 votes

{quoted}

There are picks that leave him null and void. Pantheon is a "Meh" champion. You don't actually see him a whole lot.

You don't see that as a problem? This champion either shits on you or is worthless. That screams horrible design.

GrievousFetus1 votes

No if anything champions actually having strong and weak match ups instead of every single match up being roughly even because champ kits have huge overlap and are stupidly generalist is way healthier.

HateDaddy4 votes

{quoted}

No if anything champions actually having strong and weak match ups instead of every single match up being roughly even because champ kits have huge overlap and are stupidly generalist is way healthier.

There's a difference between strong/weak and overbearingly oppressive to the point where you can't even do anything. Play Nasus, Jax, Tryndamere, Gangplank, Irelia etc and get counterpicked by pantheon. You literally can do nothing but hope your jungler actually ganks.

GrievousFetus2 votes

I have.

You know what I did? I played safe, didn't feed, Pantheon left lane 0/0/0, and from then on out the game was a 5v4 in our favour.

HateDaddy3 votes

{quoted}

I have.

You know what I did? I played safe, didn't feed, Pantheon left lane 0/0/0, and from then on out the game was a 5v4 in our favour.

Yeah I'm sure that happens every single time. Pantheon goes 0/0/0 and you manage to get perfect CS. Pantheon certainly doesn't ult or roam. Be realistic.

Spitfirë3 votes

No, its either snow ball or don't. exactly as they tried to design it.

HateDaddy5 votes

{quoted}

No, its either snow ball or don't. exactly as they tried to design it.

That's exactly why Talon, Akali and several other champions have been reworked and for good reason. That's terrible design philosophy.

Spitfirë2 votes

They are still hit or miss champions. Don't complain when there are literally like 120 different champions.

Ralanr3 votes

They are not done with reworks.

Edit: I thought I said not but didn't. Lol.

coeurloyal1 votes

Akali and Talon were pushed further into their niche roles--as have all of the other reworked/ new champions. Generalist champions as a design choice are awful--which is why generalist champions are getting windowed/situational power. If anything, Pantheon emphasizes this trait-- which is not a bad thing.

PermabannedGaren2 votes

It's surreal to see so many people justify Pantheon's design. How delusional, lol.

GrievousFetus1 votes

Don't hate on Pantheon, hate on Riot's unlock system meaning that League isn't allowed to have hard match ups and genuine counterpicks and Pantheon breaking that rule.

If anything the game needs more champs like Pantheon, but can't sustain them because all champs aren't directly accessible from the beginning.

HateDaddy2 votes

{quoted}

Don't hate on Pantheon, hate on Riot's unlock system meaning that League isn't allowed to have hard match ups and genuine counterpicks and Pantheon breaking that rule.

If anything the game needs more champs like Pantheon, but can't sustain them because all champs aren't directly accessible from the beginning.

No, nobody likes the game being rock/paper/scirrors. You don't get to beat me just because you were lucky enough to counterpick me.

GrievousFetus1 votes

It's almost like junglers exist and the game isn't strictly laning phase.

HateDaddy4 votes

{quoted}

It's almost like junglers exist and the game isn't strictly laning phase.

It's almost as if riot hasn't come out time and time again that a champions greatest weakness is being prone to being ganked is not adequate counterplay. Let's stop this passive aggressive nonsense. The game is much better off with a large percentage of light counters. The game needs to be decided by gameplay, not champion select.

xJLx MCHammer1 votes

Because it's not that bad Ask for a bank Or roam and make a play

HateDaddy4 votes

[{quoted}](name=xJLx MCHammer,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=VclvEEXI,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2017-05-22T21:59:26.118+0000)

Because it's not that bad Ask for a bank Or roam and make a play

Depending on junglers? Nice one

Roaming against pantheon? Alright, it's a good thing he doesn't have a semi global ultimate to get there quickly.

k wìx1 votes

There is no extreme hard counter in league - there are enough build options and paths that almost any champion can survive and not feed under turret when matched with another champion. You may not win lane, you may lose CS, but you will not feed.

Mantheon is definitely oppressive early on, but just buy armor and play around him. Don't let him get close. **Treat him like Annie or Blitzcrank, and you'll be just fine! **

Spitfirë1 votes

Why are people so afraid of those champion's. There is counterplay. And they are easy.

k wìx1 votes

If your talking about Pantheon : It takes a long time to learn that lesson, and many don't - they just assume that every matchup SHOULD be a skill matchup, and rather than try to endure, they try to win, and lose everything for it.

If your talking about Annie : Annie has a auto-targeting stun that can lead into one of the highest AP damage combos in the game - this allows her to kill someone in an extremely short amount of time - **This is absolutely terrifying. **

If your talking about Blitzcrank : He has the fastest traveling hook in the game. This single ability defines his kit and can lead to an instant death, just like annies stun. **This is absolutely terrifying. **

Spitfirë1 votes

That's their problem, Hence why people get hardstuck in places low elo. They don't learn their lesson, there are strategies for everything. But instead of learning from prior games, they still decide to tackle problems head on and just force it to work. instead of bidding time to get big and farm

Spitfirë1 votes

Every solution has a problem, But going gung ho for no reason but TRYING to win is low elo problems.

Ovalbomd121 votes

That's something about games though: You don't want to be bored. Playing against Pantheon is boring. If the counter to Pantheon is being very bored, then it's bad design.

FiddlesOnTheRoof1 votes

It's not protecting him, it's acknowledging that he's garbage tier right now, except levels 1-5. Even then, he has several counters.

HateDaddy3 votes

{quoted}

It's not protecting him, it's acknowledging that he's garbage tier right now, except levels 1-5. Even then, he has several counters.

54% winrate with 7% pick rate in top lane is far from garbage tier. And this is about when pantheon is used to counterpick you.

FiddlesOnTheRoof1 votes

O that's insane. I didn't know it was that high. He seems so worthless to me. his kit is trash. That's interesting.

archerno11 votes

Well dont play Bruisers. Play sustain tanks. Play Gragas, Cho, Trundle. Or range champs like Gnar, Kennen, Ryze, Nautilus. Poppy is also good.

HateDaddy1 votes

{quoted}

Well dont play Bruisers. Play sustain tanks. Play Gragas, Cho, Trundle. Or range champs like Gnar, Kennen, Ryze, Nautilus. Poppy is also good.

Again, when I get counterpicked. I play champions who equally beat pantheon.

FooDang1 votes

You dont have a rune page for hard counterpicks? Shame on you...

HateDaddy3 votes

{quoted}

You dont have a rune page for hard counterpicks? Shame on you...

You think rune pages save you from hard counters?

FooDang1 votes

Well you know your going to take spears to the face at level 1. What helps more vs early lane bullies? health per lvl yellows or 9 armor?

HateDaddy1 votes

{quoted}

Well you know your going to take spears to the face at level 1. What helps more vs early lane bullies? health per lvl yellows or 9 armor?

Actually a mixture of flat health + armor is best and I do have a page for that. But it helps slightly, it doesn't completely negate the match-up.

General Matty1 votes

{quoted}

Actually a mixture of flat health + armor is best and I do have a page for that. But it helps slightly, it doesn't completely negate the match-up.

don't say actually, say i prefer or something, i mean jesus christ you sound like a dick.

FooDang1 votes

{quoted}

You think rune pages save you from hard counters?

Yes I do. With armor yellows and buying cloth+4 you would have had 24 extra armor and enough sustain to outlast his mana. Btw Im not a fan of Dorans shield vs lane bullies.

HateDaddy2 votes

{quoted}

Yes I do. With armor yellows and buying cloth+4 you would have had 24 extra armor and enough sustain to outlast his mana. Btw Im not a fan of Dorans shield vs lane bullies.

item 2033 + meditation. Mana problems don't exist.

FooDang1 votes

He didnt have meditation. And he took ignite which pretty much says you have to take Cloth+4 or give up FB. (Which you did at 2:25)

Edit: damn and died @ 3 mins. Yea whatever I suggest is a lot better than whatever you did because your way didnt work.

HateDaddy1 votes

{quoted}

He didnt have meditation. And he took ignite which pretty much says you have to take Cloth+4 or give up FB. (Which you did at 2:25)

I got ganked twice by an Evelyn? I never died solo to this guy. This is one game, which isn't indicative of anything at all and has nothing to do with my original point.

FooDang1 votes

Im just suggesting you try a different build. Ive had a lot of success (surviving) vs hard counters with AR quints and yellows + cloth4. You survive long enough to go back and buy stuff and tp back. They have ignite so they have to run.

HateDaddy1 votes

{quoted}

Im just suggesting you try a different build. Ive had a lot of success (surviving) vs hard counters with AR quints and yellows + cloth4. You survive long enough to go back and buy stuff and tp back. They have ignite so they have to run.

I have 2k+ games on Nasus, I know how to survive hard counters.

FooDang2 votes

Obviously not vs Pantheon or else you wouldnt make a thread about it.

HateDaddy1 votes

{quoted}

Obviously not vs Pantheon or else you wouldnt make a thread about it.

Why can't I hate a champion? Why can't I think a champion is a terrible design? Did I say I always lose against pantheon? My game has nothing to do with my argument. If you could separate that, you'd realize how silly you sound right now.

FooDang1 votes

Hard counters are hard. I dunno what else to say except survive and get out of the early game. Late game Nasus isnt fun to play against either and people say "oh just counterpick and beat him early, win game early"...

I know the feels though, Patheon does suck to play against. I hate cheese.

FooDang1 votes

I said it wasnt fun. Just like OP doesnt think fighting Pantheon early is fun. If you lost a team fight late game Nasus just eats through towers and GG. Lol win rates arent accurate anyways on account of bronze players skewing the statistics. Lolz win rates GTFO.

coeurloyal1 votes

You can hate a champion all you want, but don't expect anybody else to agree. Your reasoning is very faulty, and you're too busy being to mad to see it. You have an entire post's worth of people disagreeing with you but either you just want to argue or you're too stubborn to accept that you aren't playing the matchup correctly.

EcchiOtakuTM1 votes

Well firstly, pantheon is in need of a rework, however he's easily counterable by all champs tbh.

People just refuse to buy ninja tabis and if they're still having issues a raptor's cloak. Not to mention the doran shield rework gutted pantheon.

However outside of his clear strengths and weaknesses, pantheon, while at home is, out of touch-ups. When a rework happens they'll probably retain his ulti entirely, make his W a skill shot AoE CC, give him skillshot Q and rework E(maybe mini passive update too)

I personally think he isn't in heavy need of it atm even though I just said doran shield and ninja tabi counters him hard. I think he functions without being too oppressive but can still find success if the said pantheon doesn't try to just solo top all game, learns wave management and not only try to excel top but get his team further ahead. He isn't such a mess where he contains something broken, he just has a slightly undertuned kit(which is apparent due to him and gragas being released at the same time, thus less thoughful development.)

I personally just hope in the future IF and only IF he is being reworked, they give him some anchor-like skill where he charges forward with spear in hand and shishkabobs enemies he collides with. Although as a basic ability it wouldn't be able to turn like rakan does but just a straight forward skillshot charge like shen, for each champion hit he could gain some form of passive for some effect like dmg/defense/ or utility.

He's only unfun to those who don't want to alter their build.

RookPusher1 votes

I feel like everyone crying about Pantheon doesn't play him. If you did, you'd know that he falls of a steep cliff pretty quick if he doesn't get kills. And maybe that explains it because if there's one thing people are bad at doing in this game its being bored.

Starve him out, and then use him for free kills when he falls off.

WitchQueen Annie1 votes

Besides his global Ult, he's basically a worse version of Renekton

General Matty1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lannister Gold ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=VclvEEXI,comment-id=000b,timestamp=2017-05-23T16:31:26.391+0000)

Besides his global Ult, he's basically a worse version of Renekton

at least renekton can be useful later.

NickMcYeti1 votes

I'm a Panth main, and while I understand the frustration that comes with facing this champion, it is also true that he isn't as oppressive as people allow him to be simply because they're so scared of him. The very best thing you can do against any Pantheon you play against is push the wave. If you can force him to use his mana on killing large creep waves rather than on throwing Q's at you, he becomes much less scary. Pantheon's will also very rarely engage on you with W if you are inside a decently large creep wave as the minions will do a lot of damage so pushing lets you create those big, protective waves. If you're not letting a Pantheon get kills because hes so busy dealing with minion waves, he's going to seek kills in other parts of the map post 6. Constantly pushing creeps into his tower creates pressure that he becomes compelled to answer and therefore forces him to make difficult choices between losing good CS (and possibly a tower) by ulting into another lane and ceding the pressure or responding to the lane pressure and therefore missing out on ult opportunities. Most often the top lane counterpart to a Pantheon will take Teleport while Pantheon should always have Ignite. Use this to your advantage to keep up this constant lane pressure, using Tele to get back to lane instead of saving to try to match his Ult. If done right, you will either gain an easy first brick and decent CS advantage OR force the Pantheon to be stuck under his tower and therefore heavily decreasing the pressure he can exert on your teams other lanes.

Tips for playing against Panth. a)Never push into his turret while hes backed and you're unsure if he has ult. He's going to use it to kill you, most of the time its pretty easy. b)Keep watch for the enemy jungler at all times, Panth is really good at gank assisting, he offers quick, easy CC to set up almost any jungler. c)Buy Armor! Just a simple cloth armor purchase goes a long way. d)Most champions beat him at level 6 in an even HP 1v1. Pantheon's ult offers him nothing in combat. If your champions ult is a strong combat ult like Darius Aatrox Chogath Garen Fizz Irelia Nasus Renekton Riven Rumble Talon Tryndamere Urgot Yorick Yasuo Zed Vladimir then use to your advantage.

But above all man, just remember that if Pantheon does kill you, don't feel angry, feel privileged to have died at his feet. Pantheon

More from Gameplay

3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay764 comments
7,167
votes
3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay156 comments
3,510
votes
UPVOTE FOR URF
Gameplay606 comments
2,440
votes
Yes plz.
Gameplay456 comments
1,721
votes
3 Refunds per season, up vote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay114 comments
1,716
votes
When is ANYONE at riot going to address the awful new player experience?
Gameplay634 comments
1,383
votes

More by HateDaddy

Permaslow passive, point and click harass that can crit, AOE global ult, huge heal + cleanse
Gameplay154 comments
327
votes
Yo roit, now that we have a new SR map that's been updated
Maps & Modes86 comments
322
votes
After 5 years of League, I am calling it quits at the end of the season.
Gameplay333 comments
279
votes
We are almost at season 6 and there are still champs released in season 2 that cost 6300 IP.
Gameplay112 comments
261
votes
Daily reminder that max % HP true damage is loaded with counterplay and counter builds.
Gameplay194 comments
244
votes
I don't understand people on this board
Gameplay183 comments
232
votes