If I had one complaint about tanks right now, I'd complain about Doran's Shield

HateDaddy··121 votes·5,977 views

I used to think this item was fine because it served a certain niche. But with keystones, the damage that is done early, and the damage from ranged champions specifically, is incredibly difficult for melees to avoid. Melees can't really apply the usefulness of their keystones in range vs melee match-ups the way ranged champions can. So I would like to see Doran's shield be made to be better at dealing with ranged attacks specifically. This way, it doesn't impact melee vs melee interaction and if supports want to take it, fine.

It just gets old when you don't pick something with hyper sustain and you get counter picked byKennen Cassiopeia Gnar Lissandra Lulu Malzahar Teemo Vladimir and lose the lane automatically unless they massively fuck up or your jungler camps them because they can simply keep clicking on you from range and safely proc thunderlords or fervor, and to a lesser extent DFT and Grasp.

EDIT: I don't want to have to play Irelia every game just to deal with these champions.

157 Comments

Buff Jax please42 votes

The ranged vs melee laning matchup is just completely unfair (especially in top lane) and its been that way since liek forever but it got worse and worse every season. The addition of keystones just set a new height of that issue.

There is no fun in losing lane from the start just because your lane opponent can constantly righclick you from 500+ range and you can't do shit to punish them.

Strawberrycocoa21 votes

Honestly, I played Gnar against Garen last night, and it wasn't even a challenge, the poor fucker was 0/5 by the end of laning. I was going to give him props for being chill about it in the lobby but he left it right away.

Some champions are just at ridiculous disadvantages against poke. :\

kile1475 votes

That is the only counter that juggernauts have by design though. You either poke them without being hit, or you pick a more duel focused juggernaut.

HateDaddy6 votes

{quoted}

That is the only counter that juggernauts have by design though. You either poke them without being hit, or you pick a more duel focused juggernaut.

You're not wrong. But currently, it's almost too effortless for ranged to do this. The balance is off, the lane is favored too strongly by ranged champions. Ironically, I think most of the weaker champions top are like Graves and Quinn (despite their high winrates). It's everything else..

kile1479 votes

The balance is just as off when playing a juggernaut against a melee champ who isn't a juggernaut or hardcore duelist. Playing Darius into Wukong or Nautilus is so brainless because you are almost guaranteed a kill if they get into melee range, not a lot of skill required on your part.

Your problem isn't itemization, it's that juggernauts are incredibly matchup centric champs that either get in melee range and kill everything, or get kited without landing a hit. It is literally the core of their design, this is how Riot defines them. I don't disagree that Doran's Shield is a boring and weak item, but that is not juggernauts' problem.

HateDaddy7 votes

{quoted}

The balance is just as off when playing a juggernaut against a melee champ who isn't a juggernaut or hardcore duelist. Playing Darius into Wukong or Nautilus is so brainless because you are almost guaranteed a kill if they get into melee range, not a lot of skill required on your part.

You're not wrong

Your problem isn't itemization, it's that juggernauts are incredibly matchup centric champs that either get in melee range and kill everything, or get kited without landing a hit. It is literally the core of their design, this is how Riot defines them. I don't disagree that Doran's Shield is a boring and weak item, but that is not juggernauts' problem.

This would be true if the melee vs range interaction only applied to juggernauts, but it doesn't. It applies to all melees.

Truly not Gay5 votes

Melee champs with gap closers typically crush ranged ones though. Aatrox Ekko Fiora Gragas Irelia JarvanIV Jax Khazix LeeSin Maokai MasterYi Pantheon Renekton Rengar Riven Sejuani Shen Talon Tryndamere Vi MonkeyKing XinZhao Yasuo Zed

HateDaddy4 votes

[{quoted}](name=Truly not Gay,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Vb0GF1JR,comment-id=0001000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-09-15T23:44:10.229+0000)

Melee champs with gap closers typically crush ranged ones though. Aatrox Ekko Fiora Gragas Irelia JarvanIV Jax Khazix LeeSin Maokai MasterYi Pantheon Renekton Rengar Riven Sejuani Shen Talon Tryndamere Vi MonkeyKing XinZhao Yasuo Zed

Majority of those champions are garbage in lane lol

Bagguette2 votes

??? Fiora panth ekko irelia yasuo zed riven renekton and jax suck in lane?

HateDaddy4 votes

{quoted}

??? Fiora panth ekko irelia yasuo zed riven renekton and jax suck in lane?

No but aatrox, Gragas, jarvan, Kha, Lee Sin, Yi, Sej, trynd (vs ranged), vi and Wukong do. That would be the majority mentioned. And Jax loses vs a lot of ranged champs now ever since his base stats got nerfed in s4

What Is Smite2 votes

I disagree with aatrox being bad in lane as he can just heal up any damage he takes with his W and return poke with E

Bagguette3 votes

This is why i play riven and fiora lol

Sona x Rubick14 votes

70 base AD caitlyn, don't worry it's only 700 damage if you take 10 hits as a melee while she is unpunished since minions won't do shit and AA don't cost mana.

originary915 votes

[{quoted}](name=Buff Jax please,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Vb0GF1JR,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2016-09-15T14:31:10.906+0000)

The ranged vs melee laning matchup is just completely unfair (especially in top lane) and its been that way since liek forever but it got worse and worse every season. The addition of keystones just set a new height of that issue.

There is no fun in losing lane from the start just because your lane opponent can constantly righclick you from 500+ range and you can't do shit to punish them.

People thought it was bad when Ryze and the very rare Vlads appeared top Then there was a massive shetstorm when Nidalee got reworked and popped up in Top Lane (Top Lane is RUINED!!!1!) But now it's genuinely, completely and utterly worthy of comaplaint tbh... Kennen, Vlad, Gnar, Lulu, reject mages like Cass, Liss and Malz...Graves...if there was ever a time to complain about top being 'cancer' then it's now tbh.

HateDaddy4 votes

{quoted}

People thought it was bad when Ryze and the very rare Vlads appeared top Then there was a massive shetstorm when Nidalee got reworked and popped up in Top Lane (Top Lane is RUINED!!!1!) But now it's genuinely, completely and utterly worthy of comaplaint tbh... Kennen, Vlad, Gnar, Lulu, reject mages like Cass, Liss and Malz...Graves...if there was ever a time to complain about top being 'cancer' then it's now tbh.

Cass, Liss and Malz aren't reject mages lol. Cass is better in mid lane but she works in top lane. Malz and Liss are just so anti melee, they're better in top lane but they still function well in mid

JhomasTefferson3 votes

u forgot the king of them all Teemo

Blackstone013 votes

I like how Dota 2 does it with turn speeds and more aggressive minion aggro. That plus stronger early game defense/low damage means a melee can lane vs a ranged.

Rockm Sockm8 votes

I think making it specifically effect range would be a good way to go since it would not become mandatory.

It is the worst starting item by far.

Jbels5 votes

Shit most tanks might as well just start Doran's ring (If they are more of a magic damage bully kind of Champion, like Sion, Maokai, etc.) or Corrupting potion. Both options give more sustain in lane because Doran's shield only lets you buy one potion =_=

GrReaper964 votes

True the only reason you wouldnt go item 2033 over item 1054 is if you use a mana-less champion

Immortal spax4 votes

Much better go Sword+3 honestly or cloth+4 if you are manaless.

Melledoneus2 votes

Or ruby crystal.

Gosh Darn4 votes

Doran's ring has HP + AP + Mana Regen. Doran's Blade has HP + AD + Lifesteal. Why does Doran's shield not have resistance? It has the weakest regen of the 3 Doran's items, a weak passive, and no raw stat besides hp. It'd be better if it actually gave %HP Regen based on the champion's regen rather than flat regen, because most tanks and fighters have high regen anyways.

Honestly I'd prefer a Doran's MR item and a Doran's AR item because the shield has been absolute shit for years now.

Elros Thranduil1 votes

it simply because it would make it op later on. Any %hp regen, or kind of stat would consider being op in mid game if you compare it with the gold you spend. Imagine mundo buys dorans shield if it has % hp regen. He wouldnt sell in unless he will buy +2k costed item.

If it has also armor, welcome to the league of dorans shield. Even mid laners will buy it to reduce minion dmg etc etc.

Add it more hp it will basically outscale the blade.

The only buff could make it stronger, would remove the unique passive and make it only passive. Then top laners can buy 2 shields against tryndamere,fiora,jax,quinn etc and it could help their laning phase a lot.

FantasySniper2 votes

It would be better if it gave higher HP, too. It's the only Doran's item to be inefficient when both Blade and Ring have stronger passives for their roles.

Meep Man4 votes

I honestly think that Doran's Shield should give 100 Health and block 10 damage (from 8) AFTER resistances apply. That would be a decent buff since currently, I haven't used Doran's Shield in the last 100 games or so.

Astôlfo2 votes

It's still useful against autoattack or single-target ability reliant champions, but the item in itself is so gold efficient it's honestly be better to go Cloth4 in most cases.

HateDaddy7 votes

{quoted}

It's still useful against autoattack or single-target ability reliant champions, but the item in itself is so gold efficient it's honestly be better to go Cloth4 in most cases.

It's rather meh against them tbh because of the way it works with pre-mitigation. But it's better than nothing and in specific match-ups, it used to be a god-send. Then keystones were made and it kinda just ignores that passive now.

GayFluffyUnicorn1 votes

Have u ever played against cassio top as let's say nautilus or malphite without any jungler help? U just wish to surrender 5 min into the game.

Astôlfo1 votes

Her Q every 3s and her E every 0.75s is hellishly infuriating to play against. At least Q can be dodged until she gets Rylai's or a good W. But E is just point and click.

I'd hesitate to call her imbalanced though. Maybe slightly? Meh.

JhomasTefferson2 votes

shes unabalanced. The w being able to stop movement effects and slow is op, especially considering she will kill you before you get out of the w. it removes all ability to escape. It would be like if ap soraka mid cast her e under you and you were fucked instantly/ knew you were going to die cuz you got hit by an insta-cast aoe ranged circle spell that offers no counterplay.

JhomasTefferson2 votes

If you could flash out of it, that would be ok even.

HateDaddy2 votes

{quoted}

Have u ever played against cassio top as let's say nautilus or malphite without any jungler help? U just wish to surrender 5 min into the game.

Play against her as any melee not named irelia and you will need jungle help

SanKakU2 votes

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HateDaddy32 votes

{quoted}

Isn't Sivir a relatively decent alternative to Irelia? She's only 450 IP, too. Or is that why you don't pick her?

huh

kile14719 votes

How is Sivir a replacement for Irelia?! She doesn't fulfill the same role at all and doesn't even play top lane.

50000000000000003 votes

She's a good splitpusher and counters a lot of top laners (being ranged, spell shield, and passive kiting/chasing). You're right in that Sivir isn't an assassin that transitions into a diver, though.

kile1472 votes

I'm not saying she can't necessarily be played top lane, but she doesn't fulfill the same niche as Irelia. She also is nowhere near meta so when the tone of this comment

Isn't Sivir a relatively decent alternative to Irelia? She's only 450 IP, too. Or is that why you don't pick her?

makes it seem like she's an obvious alternative it's just highly confusing.

RamboDash152 votes

You can take her top, she excels at pushing so she can apply pressure as well as provide extra damage in team fights. It doesn't work in all comps of course (you'll want a tanky/brusier jungle)

kile1474 votes

Perhaps, but really the general confusion around this is the assumption that an incredibly un-meta pick is an obvious alternative to one of the core top lane champs. If they had said why not pick Renekton, then that would make sense, or "You should try Sivir, who may be unusual but actually does well in those matchups".

It's also ignoring that ranged top laners are part of the problem that OP is trying to solve.

LXII2 votes

Anything plays top lane if you want it to. I've been doing Tristana top the last couple days.

JhomasTefferson1 votes

thresh top opop with bluebuild

DaSarcasticGuy1 votes

Dude I recently played against a top thresh as sion and I'll admit the matchup was rough. Maybe it's cuz I wasn't used to laning against a thresh but he out traded me for the most part. Though once team fights starting happening I had a much bigger impact on the game which surprised me cuz it was thresh but ya. A lot of fun though. Would like to see more top Thresh ass that was an interesting match up.

JhomasTefferson2 votes

Lol. Yeah, if you go glass cannon duskblade/rfc oneshot build, you need to go for picks, or stand way back, land a hook halfway thru the fight, and assassinate the enemy carry with one auto. I like to sometimes do essence instead of dusk first for the 30% cdr on it once I get rfc, then play a little more passive till I get dusk and start oneshotting.

With blue build its sorta similar, you act as peel for adc while doing a fair amount of damage, try to hook the adc or enemy assassin/mage, or anyone actually, the hook is good in general, but here its more imperative that you get the enemy squishies in the ult box so that theyre slowed to be killed. the ult does a lot of damage too.

you can go for a shred build with bork cleaver and wits (ive done it jg too for bloodrazor) then get guinsoos if youre fed or go for tanky items, then hook whoever. Youll be doing a lot of hybrid damage, with all souls collected adding 1 magic damage on hit, + all items you might have. youll be able to kill their frontline as quick as their backline, at a decent sorta pace. Frozen mallet is real good with this

with fulltank thresh top you might as well have gone supp, but you enable another high utility champ to go supp, and still offer a lot to the team with the utility, which is why I play thresh in general. Youll be a huge damage soak

Hes very versatile. Even if you don't want to be in a fight, just throw a hook at the fight. if it lands whoever you hit is out for like 2 seconds, then you can decide to jump to it, like a lee sin q but with cc. you can also e while you have someone hooked, or hook as you cast e. he provides a lot of lockdown to the team, even with full damage. the lantern utility is always good, and helps with jg clear and saves lives more than youd expect with the shield, and if youre really good you can use its tiny collision box to make enemies stutter step to catch up with them and there are places you can place your ult if youre fighting in jg to completely zone away enemy squishies/ assassins entering from odd angles. also your souls ensure infinite scaling, and by lategame can get you the equivalent of more than two armor items if you stack them, not even mentioning the ap and on hit damage.

The coolest thing I ever did with thresh tho was on accident. I had always known thresh e could stop dashes, but one time I played thresh into riven. Thresh's e has an instant cast time on the side that pulls towards you. So when riven would go to knock me up, when I saw her in the air I could e real quick to pull her towards me and it would end the animation, cancel the knockup and the damage.

I think it works well cuz of all the things you can bring to the team. Hes a self reliant champ too. He can play any role, the only one I haven't done is mid.

Also, I play karma top. She's op af in a 1v1 situation

CerealBoxOfDoom2 votes

why are you going top without hypersustain though? Wtf are you trying to play even lol

HateDaddy16 votes

{quoted}

why are you going top without hypersustain though? Wtf are you trying to play even lol

Jax Malphite Nautilus Shen not to mention, most champions need to land spells on champions to sustain. So even then, in some of these matches, sustain means shit.

BastionKross1 votes

Pantheon Poppy as well.

Meep Man2 votes

Pantheon and Malphite are probably the only champions here that can compete right now due to their Passives and/or innate defenses. Shen is only used for Ult really as well.

Melledoneus9 votes

Especially since his damage is non-existent now.

Canastus4 votes

Don't even think of playing Shen this patch, he was gutted to hell in preparation for Worlds. He might be a decent champ for the pros but for regular mortals he's pretty much unusable after what they've done to him, he's literally sitting at a 45% winrate now.

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