Are any Veigar changes going to take place next patch or the one after?

Curling Veigar·Apr 16, 2015·30 votes·1,527 views

Because I feel like he's about to be forgotten again. And Meddler said he was a WIP too... but nevertheless I still feel like he ended up in the back of the balance team's head.

45 Comments

Rinky DinkyApr 16, 201510 votes

All of the Veigar threads are being ignored now.

I'm worried.

Pythagorean ThmApr 16, 20158 votes

{quoted}

All of the Veigar threads are being ignored now.

I'm worried.

At this point I'm fairly certain that the balance team legitimately thinks they've put Veigar in a decent spot.

And that leads me to believe they don't play their own game.

Loken StoneheartApr 17, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hatch RawerBeryl,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=VZfmEWqh,comment-id=000d0000,timestamp=2015-04-16T23:27:29.062+0000)

At this point I'm fairly certain that the balance team legitimately thinks they've put Veigar in a decent spot.

And that leads me to believe they don't play their own game.

They weren't considerate of his initial "balance" during his change.

I don't see why they should be considerate of it now ('Oh, his winrate is OK, we must have nailed it). He feels ... bad to play now. They should be concerned about that, and then tune him up/down if he's not in the right place. Even if he was balanced, his W and E don't feel like skills anymore.

GloriousKaiserApr 16, 20153 votes

Cassiopeia

Curling VeigarApr 16, 20151 votes

{quoted}

only difference here is that meddler himself said Veigar is a WIP. I'm not sure about cass or if any red spoke about her, though.

Rinky DinkyApr 16, 20151 votes

Cass is not failing as a champion

Cass has a new fanbase.

alaskaneagleApr 16, 20153 votes

54367

They pretty much changed him to the point he will be completely unviable unless the meta drastically shifts away from mobility (when the driving force for years has been mobility and mobility creep) since his only defense against champs with mobility was nerf'd to the point it is useless.

I wonder if "re-work" will ever mean anything other than "hey we're going to fu ck up a champ so bad you can't use him and you don't like him anymore"

BottleCapsterApr 16, 20152 votes

Veigar just received a medly of buffs last patch, and the patch before it. I'm certain they're keeping watch on him. After all with the changes they made, if thy make him too reliable he'll be an absolute monster.

DrCabesApr 16, 201510 votes

Hmm, Veigar needs to be compensated for the dfg removal. Let's nerf his ult and eliminate his ability to stun. It's ok though, we'll give make his Q a skill shot so he can farm easier. Sure he won't be able to poke easily in lane anymore but hey, farm. His W? Eh, we'll wait on that one.

Oh so you can't stun with your E anymore or defend yourself with it? Here let's have your Q move faster that should help.

Oh you still cant stun anybody or land your W? Here lets have your walls block dashes. Sure they can still dash out before the walls are up, but we'll assume they have at least 200 ping so that won't be an issue?

Oh you still can't land a combo or defend yourself? Oh well we tried. Maybe next year bud.

BottleCapsterApr 16, 20154 votes

I don't have time for a full reply right now, but please stop blowing things out of proportion. Yes Veigar's stun is more difficult to land, especially on targets anticipating it, But its far from "eliminating his ability to stun". While i agree that Riot seems to be trying the morgana approach with weaker champions, by suited up 1 ability to absurdity to justify a kit weakness, It doesn't make those champions unplayable. Veigar is close to where he needs to be tbh. Any change can be worked around, especially with someone who scales infinitely as Veigar does.

Does he need more work? Yes, but Does it need to be the most vital thing for the balance team to focus on, I don't think so. They're giving him breathing room, We may see changes to him next cycle, but be patient dear lord. Please don't overexaggerate and recognize that Not every issue gets solved in 2 weeks.

A Tall JokeApr 16, 201511 votes

We're just worried because a patch has gone without any changes and a second patch is going through with 0 changes so far.

And you're understating the inviability of his E right now; it's basically "Please make a mistake so I can kill you." It's NEVER "I outplayed you, die." And without E, there is no W. And his ult is weaker now. So you wait until your enemy messes up, hope they have no good mobility skills, and THEN you can MAYBE kill them.

He's a work in progress and we're seeing no work; very little remains of old Veigar and we have to play around this new Veigar that can't do what made old veigar so appealing. No communication has been made and no one bothered consulting all 20 (hyperbole) veigar mains as to see what we might want. So yes, we're frustrated.

BottleCapsterApr 17, 20153 votes

I understand your concerns, but his E really isn't unviable to be perfectly honest. It requires much more planning now, and its less reliable, but in order for them to have upped his power budget (I.e. the better farming/Quicker stacking of his Q) changes like that needed to happen.

From a basic perspective, What is Veigar's major problem? If we take it as "Veigar is a low mobility mage with an unreliable escape" then to that regard, he's not all that special. One of the biggest gripes against Viktor for a long time was his low mobility and ease of assassination due to the delay on his W, which both has startup ( a la Veigar) and a charge time ( a la its slow counters), yet Viktor is finding his place in the meta, as a great multipurpose caster with a lot of flexibility.

Thus far riot has attempted to solve the Veigar Stun issue by giving him more range, which does make landing the stun less "Do or Die" whether you accept that or not. Previously Veigar needed to be practically on people to nuke them to oblivion, and he definitely still has that power, technically even moreso because of the lower cd on W, Q, and his increased cast ranges. While this doesn't solve Veigar's unreliable escape power, we have to ask ourselves how effective Veigar should be at his peel game. We're dealing with a champion here who scales indefinitely, with incredible AP ratios, whose final Nuke even scales off a whopping 80% of his opponent's AP. While this isn't effective against AD mids, the mere fact that veigar can punish opponents for building their primary damage source is a thing to be reckoned with, and gives him surprising trade power even when behind.

Despite your dismissal of it, a well placed Veigar stun is damning in teamfights, and with any ally who can hold someone down, the ease of kill potential he has with his new range and faster stacking Make him a vital target to both protect and attack. Sure Veigar's stun isn't consistant anymore, and it makes landing his W more difficult, but how much power can we really give him without overpowering him at this point? Increase the reliability of W and you have to cut its damage (a fine trade i think if they decide to go with it), as a skill that hits as hard as W does, from the range it does is borderline absurd if not for its insane telegraphing. If we buff his E again, either decreasing the delay or otherwise, we're giving him the craziness of his other buffs and augmenting it with a skill that spells death the moment it hits you.

To be a little more concise, Veigar is a character who needs protecting, he's not an assassin, and neither should he have increased mobility or great reliability on his defensive skills regarding just how much damage he does, and how far he can affect the battlefield. Any changes from this point onward as i see it will require that Veigar pay in response, most likely at the cost of damage. Remember, Riot doesn't "want" to encourage Instagibbing, which is exactly what Veigar's kit is revolved around, from the purest incarnation of the mage class. If you ask why champions like Leblanc and Zed are allowed to reign with the damage they do, its largely because of the risk involved with their range (even if i do think they need to be riskier) and their general lack of CC. As a general point of consensus, assassin's are chosen for single target eradication and bring high mobility and burst, but little CC. Mages however have safer ranges, AoE teamfight centric kits, and relative low to nonexistant mobility options to allow people to catch and punish them. As a mage hypercarry with as large a trap as he has, Veigar has too much utility and damage to give him increased mobility, and he's too strong a threat for them to give him reliable self-peel.

Now i don't say this because i harbor any hatred for people calling for buffs, but to understand Riot's potential logic better, you have to look beyond his matchups, and into what his purpose as a champion is, and what forms of counterplay exist both for him and against him. If Riot really feels that Veigar just can't win his games (A sentiment i don't share) then he'll receive more changes. But they're going to handle him with Velvet gloves, because infinite scaling is a rocky road, and the last thing Veigar needs is to be a classic OP FoTM champion chosen because of his lack of counterplay options. I know people are going to disapprove of what i say, but i only say this because i genuinely think that you all despite your love of him, are really selling the little guy short. He's had a playstyle shift, and its going to take time for people to get used to it. Its different, but I wouldn't say its bad. If anything he just needs slight tweaks, other than that, i'd say he's fairly balanced as is.

Loken StoneheartApr 17, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ashe cat,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=VZfmEWqh,comment-id=000800000000,timestamp=2015-04-16T21:03:58.867+0000)

I don't have time for a full reply right now, but please stop blowing things out of proportion. Yes Veigar's stun is more difficult to land, especially on targets anticipating it, But its far from "eliminating his ability to stun". While i agree that Riot seems to be trying the morgana approach with weaker champions, by suited up 1 ability to absurdity to justify a kit weakness, It doesn't make those champions unplayable. Veigar is close to where he needs to be tbh. Any change can be worked around, especially with someone who scales infinitely as Veigar does.

Does he need more work? Yes, but Does it need to be the most vital thing for the balance team to focus on, I don't think so. They're giving him breathing room, We may see changes to him next cycle, but be patient dear lord. Please don't overexaggerate and recognize that Not every issue gets solved in 2 weeks.

No. No this is not acceptable.

This is not remotely acceptable when they gut champions on the drop of a hat because they're suppressing their precious Esports, like Veigar support apparently was starting to.

You cannot, cannot, cannot, just gut champions and then leave them for dead. If they are so bloody fast to destroy a champion for the sake of their precious "balance," or "game health," they have to be three times as hurried to fix the champion they just destroyed.

Giving everybody the Poppy treatment is beyond unacceptable. Completely unacceptable, its a disgusting policy and Riot should genuinely feel bad for using it.

BottleCapsterApr 18, 20151 votes

Please take a chill pill seriously. Veigar isn't dead. He didn't get the "Poppy Treatment", He's been changed, and with that change comes new rules. I've already elaborated my thoughts on the matter, like em or hate em, Veigar's power has SHIFTED. Stop ignoring the changes that actually helped Veigar, like the massive range and missile speed buffs of his Q (Not to mention that double-tap), the buffs to his passive, and Azir Level Dash-stunting when the wall is up. Veigar is now much more effective at a longer range, and farms much better with the changes than before, which for an infinitely scaling instagibber is kinda fantastic. I'll leave it at this, as i've already given my two cents, so adieu.

Loken StoneheartApr 17, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Hmm, Veigar needs to be compensated for the dfg removal. Let's nerf his ult and eliminate his ability to stun. It's ok though, we'll give make his Q a skill shot so he can farm easier. Sure he won't be able to poke easily in lane anymore but hey, farm. His W? Eh, we'll wait on that one.

Oh so you can't stun with your E anymore or defend yourself with it? Here let's have your Q move faster that should help.

Oh you still cant stun anybody or land your W? Here lets have your walls block dashes. Sure they can still dash out before the walls are up, but we'll assume they have at least 200 ping so that won't be an issue?

Oh you still can't land a combo or defend yourself? Oh well we tried. Maybe next year bud.

Good old Riot was keeping East Coast in mind after all! By making them the only ones that can even potentially lose to a Veigar! HUZZAH!

Rinky DinkyApr 16, 20153 votes

He did not receive buffs last patch actually~

Curling VeigarApr 16, 20152 votes

It's debatable on whether or not he NEEDS a buff. My point here is that a red specifically said that he was a work in progress, and then randomly stopped talking about him.

Lord OwlBearApr 16, 20152 votes

Speed up His W, boom done. Then he will be viable again.

Curling VeigarApr 16, 20152 votes

Old Veigar with dfg < old Veigar with ludens

Chespin2013Apr 16, 20152 votes

i want my old veiger back not this shell of a champion that i once loved

DeadlyfarpkApr 17, 20152 votes

item 2050

DrCabesApr 16, 20151 votes

We can only hope

RetillinApr 16, 20151 votes

Riot as said only Live Balance team will look at him now. They are the ones that change numbers (ie damage/hit points/movement speed/ect...). They are no longer looking at changing his abilities.

DrCabesApr 16, 20151 votes

They also said he getting "buffed". Lets hope this is another one of those misleading situations, or that the live balancing team does something good.

Curling VeigarApr 16, 20152 votes

{quoted}

They also said he getting "buffed". Lets hope this is another one of those misleading situations, or that the live balancing team does something good.

Got a source link? I'm interested in seeing

DrCabesApr 16, 20153 votes

I was referring to the original dfg "compensation". Sorry to mislead.

Rinky DinkyApr 16, 20151 votes

A rioter has never said that.

It was specifically stated he would be receiving more changes.

Dr.Cabes was misleading. Very much so.

DrCabesApr 16, 20153 votes

Already said I was referring to dfg "compensation" but ok :(

Rinky DinkyApr 16, 20151 votes

qetzelApr 16, 20157 votes

IIRC the Champ-Up team had nothing to do with Veigar. It was live balance from the start.

ZarxisApr 16, 20158 votes

{quoted} They are no longer looking at changing his abilities.

Too bad. That's exactly what Riot needs to do to his W. If they made it so Veigar could land it without needing his E stun (even if they did have to nerf the damage or AOE), he'd feel like a champion and not a Q-spamming bot.

RrettApr 16, 20154 votes

Right now, compared to pre dfg removal his damage is significantly lowered. Even with a full combo and consideration for the AP inflation.

Curling VeigarApr 16, 20151 votes

oh lol, but the dude DID say he was a WIP. but there haven't been any changes since 5.6 Pbe cycle

CubedJusticeApr 16, 20151 votes

I haven't noticed any changes on the PBE, so probably not this patch. Hopefully the next.

Curling VeigarApr 16, 20151 votes

I'm interested in seeing a red talk about him, too.

Takeuchi 17Apr 16, 20151 votes

meh i dunno. i just raped a couple aram games with him yesterday and i hadnt played him since before the nerf up to that point

BrothaApr 16, 20151 votes

Just had a Veigar on my team. Guy was great at farming, but couldn't protect himself from annie, gangplank, or rammus. Poor little guy needs some buffs. In the meantime welcome to the list of champs I dodge in yoloque

List

Aatrox Bard Ezreal Shaco . . . Veigar

HeWolfApr 16, 20151 votes

I don't know why you ask these things. He saw himself hurt because of the DFG removal so he was properly compensated.

Curling VeigarApr 16, 20151 votes

Actually Meddler said that. That he was a WIP.

Lord MaliceApr 16, 20151 votes

Riot hate's counter mobility, they should just replace his Stun with a 400 range teleport that does no damage, cause you know, they love that stuff. Now veigar can hop walls and press Q. HURRAY!!!!

RrettApr 16, 20151 votes

Poppy is a WIP as well. 5 years later...