Now that Riot has introduced an item that doubles crit chance, don't you think that most ADC's will be picking that item up late game? Crit has been discussed before as an unhealthy aspect in League because of RNG reasons (remember dodge?).
I don't know, maybe it's just me. But with an item like new IE coming out, it makes me think that ADC's are too reliant on crit and it needs to be taken away and the whole class should get a revamp damage wise.
z63XnLCMwX3 votesUnpopular opinion: I loved the dodge mechanic.
Khristophoros1 votesUnpopular opinion: I loved the dodge mechanic.
I just hated the mastery that gave 10% movement speed whenever you dodged. Imagine you throw an autoattack at your lane opponent to punish their positioning but instead of taking damage they just speed up. Usually they don't dodge but when they do it feels like garbage.
ZT Xperimentor1 votesFeels terrible to take double damage when they only have one critical item too.
Khristophoros1 votesThere is a fundamental difference:
Nimbleness: Attacker made the correct play by finding a chance to punish their lane opponent's positioning. Instead the attacker is punished by giving the target movement speed instead of getting to punish them.
Crit in lane: Attacker made the correct play but randomly got a higher punishment value.
The 2nd case is less fundamentally degenerate because the correct player still got punished. But I agree it feels like garbage and it's good that they also removed crit in lane basically (I mean technically you can start brawler's glove but on average it's incredibly weak and bad)
ZT Xperimentor1 votesPositioning has nothing to do with getting lucky on rng for a damage multiplier. And I bet their changes are just going to bring back some 'unviable abusers' back into focus.
Khristophoros1 votesMy post was about Nimbleness reversing the value of positioning punishments in the laning phase and you responded to that post so try to stay in the context of what I was actually talking about when you reply.
ZT Xperimentor1 votesThing is there's a critical item that doesn't require proper positioning to critical, rapidfire cannon gives every marksmen extra reach and movement speed. Nearly every critical chance item gives movement speed, how is positioning a problem when you move faster than your opponent can retaliation?
Khristophoros1 votesAgain you're bringing up different things that I am not talking about. I am talking about the early laning phase. Please try to post within the context of a discussion. Stop bringing up irrelevant shit like a full item you won't have until mid game.
ZT Xperimentor1 votesTo be fair you started it. I simply stated being hit for double expected damage sucks; then you tried to justify it by using positioning, then distracted with their proposed changes to midseason. I was merely making a statement, not a claim.
Khristophoros3 votesHigher crit chance is more consistent. The old IE passive makes crits wildly powerful when you crit so compared to normal hits the difference is night and day.
The difference between getting 2 crits in a row vs 2 normal hits in a row with IE is 500% AD vs 200% AD. When you have IE + a zeal item complete you have 50% crit chance so both of those extreme cases are equally likely in a short window of time. The RNG is too volatile right now.
With IE + a completed zeal item after the changes, the odds of the 2 crit in a row case is going to be higher, but the power of that case less extreme. So overall a short string of autoattacks will be more consistent.
And it's also worth mentioning that the average DPS is going down against low armor targets. On live you have 1.75x damage on average from 2 items but it will be 1.6x after the changes. Against a 100 armor target the true damage will roughly compensate. The break even point is probably not exactly 100 armor but it's pretty close from tests I've done on the practice tool dummy. So this is actually a nerf for early/mid game because most champs besides tanks or maybe fighters will have less than 100 armor at that point.
DuskDaUmbreon3 votes100% critical chance is the ultimate removal of RNG from the system. You have so much of a chance that it's literally impossible for it to fail.
And now IE unto itself will no longer give crit, meaning you have to get IE and another item for it to matter (The sole exception being Tryndamere, who has up to 35% from passive already). This means IE rush is no longer viable, meaning marksmen's damage is delayed a decent amount.
And IE changes turn it from burst damage to tank melting, which is a good thing, since ADCs are meant to kill tanks, not deal burst (generally - There are marksmen that are meant to burst, but they're not exactly ADCs, then, they're burst marksmen).
ModWulf Helhammer2 votesRemember APen Lucian and Lethality MF and Jhin?
That's what you get when you take crit away from ADCs.
You want them to be a late game class, that doesn't snowball too much, and has to build multiple items to hit their power? The solution is to make them more bound to crit, not less.
remakoro2 votesThen let them go mid. Or anywhere they want. Why not? What so bad about AP lucian? (other than him being half useless)
People just dont like losing all hp 3 crit hits from character with 20% crit chance. Or hitting 5 autos with total of 0 crits with 80% crit chance.
ModWulf Helhammer2 votesAPen = Armor Pen, not ability power. The issue was that they were coming online so much earlier, they could outperform any crit ADC, simply because of how much less their items were (which is why we got the original crit price reduction)
The goal then is to smooth out the amount of power they get from criting, and that crit users should be able to hit 100% crit without significantly compromising their build. This eliminates the RNG aspect, and makes sure that the class stays late game oriented, of which the majority of them are.
remakoro2 votesAnd AP = ability power. I didnt mix them up. I said - why are you so hell-bent on forcing the meta? I think i remember your comments from other topic. Where you were trying to make it look like if adc wont be on bot every living being on earth will get annihilated. Which isnt true at all.
And i really like that idea about crit users being entitled to 100% crit chance. Why? Whats the point of it being crit then? Just make everyone crit like 
then if thats what you want.
ModWulf Helhammer1 votesWhere you were trying to make it look like if adc wont be on bot every living being on earth will get annihilated
I never said anything remotely similar to that. What I said was that if Riot succeeds in moving ADCS out of bot line, then we have to be ok with ADCs being able to go into other roles. Lane variety goes both ways.
And i really like that idea about crit users being entitled to 100% crit chance
You said yourself that you don't like the RNG aspect of it. The easiest way to remove that aspect, while still making them primarily a late game oriented class, is to allow them to hit max crit chance. This lessens snowball, as while an ADC who is ahead has a greater chance to crit, they're not dealing any inherent more damage then an ADC with less crit, like it would work if we used Ashe's damage system universally.
remakoro2 votesIm not gonna argue your logic for RNG. Its just too crazy for me. Sorry. It isnt crit anymore and it does not fix anything.
I never said anything remotely similar to that. What I said was that if Riot succeeds in moving ADCS out of bot line, then we have to be ok with ADCs being able to go into other roles. Lane variety goes both ways.
And you just said this. I didnt even had to search it up. What you just said, in case you didnt realize "There can be a game without any class. But there gonna be ADC in every single one of them. If by some meta shift they will be forced out of bot. Dont cry about RIot putting them on every single other lane"
You can have anyone anywhere. And there can be different combinations of classes in every game depending on picks or your intentions. Even supports are optional. But one marksman is simply MUST HAVE. Why? Cuz its the best thing you can have to win the game. Any other team comp just does not have that "time bomb" factor. But one ADC is easily to sustain for your team and if you use him properly he will murder everything and you will be able to wrap things up. Path of least effort. And Riot intends to keep it that way. Holy Cow of Riot Games - Marksmans.
ModWulf Helhammer1 votesLet's set up a scenario: Riot announces that they really want to open up tank play styles, get them into new and different roles. One of the primary ones they are looking at is mid lane. And I'm not talking about Galio, or maybe your occasional AP Malphite who builds a bunch of AP health, I'm talking straight up tanks: Ornn, Sion, Maokai, all of them building just like a normal tank. Now, who does tanks naturally counter? Mages. You can't very well burst someone when they have 4K HP and a bunch of MR. So now mage mains aren't too happy. They don't like that they are getting forced out of their main lane that they have. But everyone just goes "Oh, but you can still just play mages in mid lane! What's the big deal? Why do mages have to be played?" Obviously, you know that that's not true, no class is required, but it still feels really shitty when your class that you love to play is just going to be made completely irrelevant.
Now let's switch this to ADCs. Currently, there are two main reasons to pick an ADC: tank busting, and safe tower pushing. Squishies kill other squishies just fine, so that's not a priority reason for them.
As Riot has stated that they want to get other classes into bot lane, they have to improve that class to do one of those two things. BUT, Riot is also working on making that both damage classes, AD and AP, can push towers just as well, most notably with the recent changes to auto attacking towers that they made in this patch.
So that leaves tank busting. So, Riot makes a group of mages (or even an item for it) better at killing tanks. What is one of the hallmarks of mages? Good utility, waveclear, and AoE abilities. So if there's a class, that is good at killing tanks, has at least mid-tier waveclear and utility, and can push in towers (oh, and btw, this class has also been defined as mainly self supportive, so they don't really need a babysitter role to help them survive), why in the world would you pick a class that can't do all those things?
That's the problem I'm trying to illustrate. If Riot succeeds in moving other classes into bot lane, then there is no real reason to play ADCs there, as the other class can do everything they can do (granted maybe slightly worse in some aspects), but while still having their own strengths.
You know how shitty bruisers felt before conqueror? When they couldn't play in their only real lane, since the tanks they were supposed to be able to fight just shrugged them off? That's the potential problem facing ADCs. They aren't welcome in other roles. Yes, that could be a symptom of them being the only class allowed to go bot lane, but I don't expect that attitude to change when they aren't.
I'm not asking for ADCs to be OP in other roles, or to take away the diversity in those other lanes, all I'm asking is that they be actually playable there, and not just a more valuable minion to all the assassins, mages, and fighters.
remakoro2 votesDuuude... Even if you put every tank on mid, it isnt that much of a problem for mages because... Tank dont have 4k hp and 200MR pre lvl 5. Or lvl 10.
And those days tanks roam late with 4-6k Hp and 200-300 resists. And people still playing mages.
If anything - tanks might be actually easiest to deal with. Those days every second assassin starts with whole alchemic lab in his bag and keeps gulping down potions like some kind of addict. All while having built-in sustain 
or shields 
or ways to negate dmg 
plus mobility for everyone but all that while having lots of all in potential. So in a way tanks might be easier to deal with early for mages. Cuz they bound to be taking lots of free punishment without huge threat of bursting you down. I mean ffs that what they were doing on top lane for ages 
So your premise is already questionable. And even now we have games with or without mages. But with them providing second damage type they wont be forced out of anywhere just because it got harder for them to lane. Your beloved ADC benefits a lot even if he has 
that provides 0 utility for him.
Cuz she forces enemies to build MR. Instead of only stacking armor and steamrolling over full AD team cuz they cant do shit to 500 armor thornmail 
or 
with 
as their cheerleader.
If anything. Those lovely true dmg additions to everyone are much more likely to make mages obsolete. Cuz why bother about APC if half of your damage comes as true. You can just melt everyone using ADC only.
Now let's switch this to ADCs. Currently, there are two main reasons to pick an ADC: tank busting, and safe tower pushing. Squishies kill other squishies just fine, so that's not a priority reason for them.
No. Thats not the reasons. With addition of dmg to towers from AP and demolish rune, just about anyone is capable of reliable destroying towers. And some champions are even better at that than ADCs.
There are lots of champions capable of dealing with tanks and not being maksman. Champions with max hp dmg, those with armor shredding or capable of utilizing it or guys with lots of attack speed those making them capable of benefitting from on-hit effects. If ADCs provided only things that you mentioned then they would be much more of the situational pick. "Oh they have lots of tankiness? Guess we need marksman here". Which actually the case for every other role and lane. "Do lack in tankiness/cc? Okay i guess i can take tanky support. Do we even have magic DMG? Hmm i can take AP top. Do they have lots of squishes? Okay i can try assassin" But marksman is just THERE. There is NOTHING to consider when you pick bot. You just take ADC or take ADC. Well you can pick different kind of marksman but its all the same thing.
ADC provides DAMAGE. Pure RAW damage. Its simply question of - why pick anyone else if you can take ADC? Will he be able to provide just as much of reliable burst per second? No? Why bother then. Yea they are capable of shredding tanks arguably better than everyone else. But they murdering everyone else even better and harder. All while not suffering from being melee like most other guys that capable of doing those things. And therefore not susceptible to kiting. They actually can well enough kite by themselfs. Many tanks are COMPLETELY useless vs some marksman. (Thats for the favorite talk of most assassins - why there is a role capable of negating us with little to no effort)
Most marksman were made into time bombs that will blow into your face really hard. And if you have one on each team it balances out making it into actual game. You just not allowed not to have one. And everyone else trying their best to create space for them to shine. Where is the fun in that? I dont even really care about them being obligatory pick. I just dont like how Riot turned them into some kind of Messiah instead of tank shredding/tower crushing damage dealers with relialable dps. Stick around until he is farmed and then sure victory will come to you.
MorganFreemanBot3 votes[{quoted}](name= Król Wilk Sam,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=VPP4ee4V,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2018-05-02T16:25:41.352+0000)
APen = Armor Pen, not ability power. The issue was that they were coming online so much earlier, they could outperform any crit ADC, simply because of how much less their items were (which is why we got the original crit price reduction)
The goal then is to smooth out the amount of power they get from criting, and that crit users should be able to hit 100% crit without significantly compromising their build. This eliminates the RNG aspect, and makes sure that the class stays late game oriented, of which the majority of them are.
The flip side was that the armor pen "assassin" adcs were squishy killers, but barely scratched the paint on tanks.
That's fine because ADCs are supposed to be there to kill tanks. If they gut / severely push back their ability to harm tanks in order to bursty squishies harder and earlier, then that's a trade which has pros and cons. Their damage is also pretty predictable.
Current generation crit-carries just murder everything. Tanks Take a little bit longer to murderize, but still melt pretty darn quickly pretty darn early. Their damage is also insanely variable; you can win one fight against them, then have the exact same scenario play out a few minutes later but with back to back crits murdering someone out the gate.
ModWulf Helhammer1 votesThe flip side was that the armor pen "assassin" adcs were squishy killers, but barely scratched the paint on tanks.
Not exactly. The 3 most prevalent ones were Lucian, MF, and Jhin. Lucian and MF both had AoE abilities/ults that could rapidly stack 
, which then combined with lethality (and maybe a LW upgrade) shredded tanks. The remaining one, Jhin, just got so much AD, and with his missing health damage, he just hurt everything (which granted is how he's supposed to work, it's just that it's supposed to take him longer).
Current Gen crit carries hurt everything by nature of multiplicative scaling, and that's not going anywhere unless we fundamentally change how the game works. An example I've used multiple times before: explosives are strong to take out vehicles or structures. But when that same bunker destroying RPG explosive hits humans, it completely obliterates them. That's what crit is. High damage so that tanks get hurt, but when that same damage is turned on things with barely a 10th of the defense, they get demolished.
MorganFreemanBot2 votes[{quoted}](name= Król Wilk Sam,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=VPP4ee4V,comment-id=00000000000000010000,timestamp=2018-05-02T16:55:36.879+0000)
Not exactly. The 3 most prevalent ones were Lucian, MF, and Jhin. Lucian and MF both had AoE abilities/ults that could rapidly stack
Current Gen crit carries hurt everything by nature of multiplicative scaling, and that's not going anywhere unless we fundamentally change how the game works. An example I've used multiple times before: explosives are strong to take out vehicles or structures. But when that same bunker destroying RPG explosive hits humans, it completely obliterates them. That's what crit is. High damage so that tanks get hurt, but when that same damage is turned on things with barely a 10th of the defense, they get demolished.
You're not technically wrong, but you're misremembering. You're combining two different eras into one.
First you have the cleaver meta of S3 and early S4. This was when black cleaver offered purely offensive stats and built out of brutalizer, as well as stacking in 5 hits. This was when you'd have Mf and Lucian rush it and / or Ghost blade into LW and skull-fuck squishies, as well as make tanks cease to exist. This was the 'assassin' era when no one was safe and tanks melted.
Beyond that, you've got the early S6 stuff. When lethality wasn't yet tuned super well and we had Jhin, Lucian, and the likes rushing it in order to blow up squishies, but also turning around and being ass at killing tanks.
ZephyrDrake2 votesyou do know that ADCs that built crit in any way shape or form already get IE now right?
