The fact that game-length on average is longer this season than last season is irrelevant

HateDaddy··66 votes·15,715 views

The dynamic of the game hasn’t changed at all, you’ve simply added more time on average for people to sit through games that are practically decided in the first 5-10 minutes. Snowballing is still a problem, but it’s not a problem in that it exists - it’s a problem that it is simply too overwhelming once it begins. The name of the game is to snowball, there’s no denying that but it happens too quickly, decisively, and effortlessly. It is often times 1-2 plays and the game is lost from there.

I should point out a few things that have always been true, but things are quite different now. For example, percentages have always dictated that teams that take the first tower win the majority of their games - this likely holds true now as it did then. Does this mean taking FB tower automatically wins games? No. Correlation is not causation. It’s likely that teams that take first tower are likely already ahead and rolling, so taking first tower is simply a byproduct of what’s taking place. I bring this up because it is a point people always make in contrast to me when I say games are still too snowbally (the point that this isn’t true because the team taking the first tower wins most games).

The second thing is that, again, extended average game length does not indicate snowballing has toned down - it merely means you’ve extended the game by an arbitrary amount of time. If we are assuming extended game length by average indicates game health, then help us god - we are in trouble. That is a hilariously flawed interpretation. Certainly it offers some clues, but once again, correlation is not causation. And moreover, gamelength alone does not equal game health.

So what do we need to do? We need to focus on tangible game mechanics and processes and determine if there’s balance between them. Let me admit off the bat: I have no access to statistics in front of me, and chances are there aren’t websites that track these things (and I’d question the accuracy of them if they did because I’m not sure Riot even does). This is pure armchair psychology, so nothing I say is absolute truth. What I hope it does though is shift discussion into a direction that can highlight what people really want when we say a game that isn’t decided in 10 minutes, because it seems Riot defined this as extending game length.

So what’s the issue? Really, this goes back to the game disproportionately favoring offense over defense. In the long run, it is necessary for offense to favor defense. But the game practically favors offense from the onset, whereas defense is working from a disadvantage right away. How can anything defensive ever expect to excel in a world where this is true? Moreover, how are you ever supposed to slow snowballing down if offense is this favorable? Well it’s simple, you can’t. Pointing this out is one thing, but what do we do? Let’s look into that...

Keystones need to be removed or completely reworked so that offense isn’t the name of the game. Even on the one, bread and butter TRUE defensive keystone, offense is attached. This has to end. Not only do you not have a plethora of defense options for keystones, you give ambient damage to everything so even the “defensive keystones” are offensive in nature. This makes defense less valuable. In short, keystones are one of the biggest problems and they need to be gutted and reworked across the board.

This means that defense needs to be re-evaluated by items. As it stands, armor is useful when ahead but only for a short duration. However, when tanks stack armor (especially bramble vest, which just needs to be deleted) and current keystones exist, they snowball in the same fashion: they just beat you down with absurd damage. This can’t be fixed until tanks have their damage toned down (especially champions like Poppy and Sion) so that defense can actually feel like defense. As it stands, when you’re behind - armor feels like total dog shit. But you can’t allow the defensive items to be buffed either because tanks would just dominate.

So you’re stuck in this impasse where defensive items probably need slight buffs, offensive items need slight nerfs, tanks need their damage toned down (for the most part, tanks have good innate defensive tools so they’re fine on this end) but you can’t do any of this because keystones still disproportionately moderate offense and simply tweaking numbers on items won’t change any of that. Even with keystone reworks, numbers on items across the board need to be redone and items need to be looked out (some need to be outright thrown out).

The problem is entirely systematic. And you need to break it down systematically, and then address it piece by piece. This is assuming riot is willing to do this. As it stands, all you’ve done is added plates on towers which has actually just contributed to snowballing, a great example of how extended gamelength =/= snowballing reduction. And towers still come down entirely too easily. But that’s moot, it doesn’t matter if a tower dies quickly or not - if the enemy is so far ahead that he can burst you, that tower won’t do much to prolong the game and even if it does, we still have the aforementioned dilemma of extended game length does not mean snowballing is on the decline. It just means you have to suffer through an ass-whooping even longer. We harped on towers being weak last season a ton, and we did complain about damage but we didn’t really systematically look at it. And the problem is in keystones then offensive items being too powerful (offense in general though). Until these things are addressed, games are going to continue to feel like absolutely shit.

Cool.

63 Comments

Eedat32 votes

Lmao what? If you have a lead and you fuck up once you've completely thrown it back to the enemy. Now bounties even punish you for zoning enemies off farm. Every gold advantage you gain is now tracked by a bounty system so messing up just one single time while being ahead is extraordinarily punishing. Gold for last hitting has been lowered while passive gold generation has been increased a few times now as well.

How much does the game need to do exactly? Does there need to be a reset button where the gold is leveled because you got behind? Should playing better than the enemy just be irrelevent? Should you not be behind for fucking up? Should the enemy not be rewarded for playing better? Where is the line between "catch up" and "being coddled for playing poorly"?

Like should the entire match be irrelevant until 30 minutes? Should we just remove the early game entirely and start it 30 minutes in and give everyone equal gold and XP?

The game right now is actually relatively easy to come back in currently. If you think the game is as snowbally as last season you're straight up delusional. Even damage is way down from last season after multiple keystones getting nerfs, things like Duskblade getting multiple nerfs, ignite damage nerfs, runes nerfs, etc.

HateDaddy10 votes

{quoted}

Lmao what? If you have a lead and you fuck up once you've completely thrown it back to the enemy. Now bounties even punish you for zoning enemies off farm. Every gold advantage you gain is now tracked by a bounty system so messing up just one single time while being ahead is extraordinarily punishing. Gold for last hitting has been lowered while passive gold generation has been increased a few times now as well.

How much does the game need to do exactly? Does there need to be a reset button where the gold is leveled because you got behind? Should playing better than the enemy just be irrelevent? Should you not be behind for fucking up? Should the enemy not be rewarded for playing better? Where is the line between "catch up" and "being coddled for playing poorly"?

Like should the entire match be irrelevant until 30 minutes? Should we just remove the early game entirely and start it 30 minutes in and give everyone equal gold and XP?

The game right now is actually relatively easy to come back in currently. If you think the game is as snowbally as last season you're straight up delusional. Even damage is way down from last season after multiple keystones getting nerfs, things like Duskblade getting multiple nerfs, ignite damage nerfs, runes nerfs, etc.

Its easier to come back if you play champions that have high damage potential, but if you play anything with low damage potential you can count yourself out of the game. The bounty system in itself is awful because it punishes people for doing well, which is the opposite extreme of the problems of oppressive snowballing. That said, people accumulating bounties and blowing big leads happens significantly less often than people accumulating bounties and still roflstomping you. You’re outraged by the bounty concept, and thus you’ll notice that more when it happens than what’s typically happening. But the reality is, snowballing is still a huge problem and the bounty system is a failed band-aid attempt to fix it (it doesn’t fix it; and if it did, it’d be a horrible way to do it).

Eedat4 votes

What do you want? The bounty system already fucks you for messing up once while ahead. You're saying that you shouldn't even have to fuck up once to lose your lead? If enemy plays better than you and continues to play better than you they just shouldn't have an advantage?

What more do you want? Burst got hard nerfed already. Electrocute nerfed. Duskblade nerfed. Dark harvest nerfed. Ignite nerfed. Sudden impact nerfed. Why shouldn't the enemy have a big advantage for continuing to make correct decisions and push their lead? So because they don't give you an opportunity to take them out via them using good decision making they should just automatically lose their lead?

HateDaddy2 votes

{quoted}

What do you want? The bounty system already fucks you for messing up once while ahead. You're saying that you shouldn't even have to fuck up once to lose your lead? If enemy plays better than you and continues to play better than you they just shouldn't have an advantage?

This is such an exaggeration it’s not even funny. If you get massively ahead, you’re going to acquire a 1k bounty at the most. You’re going to build up a huge level lead, you’re going to deny the shit out of them. You’re going to acquire global gold through towers. You’re going to open the map up. Dying once is not going to offset this. What’s happening is you get a lead and don’t know what to do with it and you run it down and keep dying, and eventually you get them back into the game.

What more do you want? Burst got hard nerfed already. Electrocute nerfed. Duskblade nerfed. Dark harvest nerfed. Ignite nerfed. Sudden impact nerfed. Why shouldn't the enemy have a big advantage for continuing to make correct decisions and push their lead? So because they don't give you an opportunity to take them out via them using good decision making they should just automatically lose their lead?

Because offense is still way too favored. It’s even favored on defensive champions. The game is balanced around offense, and nerfing numbers won’t change anything when it’s systematically built around offense. Defense needs to matter, and the fact is defense only matters when you’re ahead, not when you’re even or behind (unless you’re Nasus or Cho). Defense shouldn’t offset snowballing or leads, but an olaf with conquerer shouldn’t be able to chase down a 300armor +maokai and kill him in less than 5 seconds. These things happen all the time, and burst was the scapegoat for it when in reality damage across the board is just too high.

Eedat5 votes

LMAO 'just a 1k bounty'

[zombie-brand-mindblown]

You’re going to build up a huge level lead, you’re going to deny the shit out of them. You’re going to acquire global gold through towers. You’re going to open the map up.

Did you not even read my post?

If enemy plays better than you and continues to play better than you they just shouldn't have an advantage?

Why shouldn't the enemy have a big advantage for continuing to make correct decisions and push their lead? So because they don't give you an opportunity to take them out via them using good decision making they should just automatically lose their lead?

So if the enemy makes good decisions early, then continues to make good decisions its a shit system because they are winning? Like forreal? Establishing a lead then continuing to push it systematically via objectives, denial, and calculated aggression is called playing the game correctly.

Ulquiorra01235 votes

"Just a 1k bounty", k I've seen enough.

Handy Sandy 1 votes

how would you center a game around defense. you need offense to waveclear, kill towers and the champions defending them, and win the game. if you dont have damage, then you have some utility to catch people out or peel allies so they can do more damage. this is league, it's always been like this.

FSRER1 votes

So, I played nasus at toplane and I was vs Darius. He only poked me while i focused on farming. Boom! I reached 100 farm while he was at 60 and I had 150 bounty on my head. I mean.....yeah

Iota Theta1 votes

{quoted}

So, I played nasus at toplane and I was vs Darius. He only poked me while i focused on farming. Boom! I reached 100 farm while he was at 60 and I had 150 bounty on my head. I mean.....yeah

Well, you apprently have to factor in his entire team at that time, not just him. Since Apparently CS bounty is CS gold of all 5 enemies added then divided by 4.3. So if you had a 150 bounty..that’s 600 CS gold above their entire enemy team. That can add up quite a bit over time, especially for a powerfarm/stacking champ

iDarkWind6 votes

Shhh, don't use logic on boards please.

Saianna3 votes

Shhh, ridicule op with overused joke more please.

The game is as snowbally as ever, everyone with at very least 1 eye and half a working brain can admit it, but hey, we just have to disagree with it, cause reasons.

iDarkWind1 votes

You're desilusional, that's all.

Saianna1 votes

you are overusing shitty joke, that's all.

iDarkWind1 votes

Your point of the game being snowbally as ever is the most ridiculous crap I've read lately. The bounty system is disgusting and is punishing players that played well all the match for making one mistake and lead to a comeback from the enemy team. If you can't see that, then you're just clearly flat out blind or bias.

Saianna2 votes

you cannot come back from a game where enemy close to oneshots you. And most of games are like that.

So maybe instead of talking bullcrap after checking patchnotes, you'd actually play the game, then you'd know snowball is still exactly the same issue it was before?

3TWarrior2 votes

CS'ing is at the core basics of the game...you're SUPPOSED to do it, just like for kills you RISK losing out on CS to exert pressure on your opponent unless they stick around in unfavorable situations, which is just bad decision making

why does the game now punish players for doing what they're supposed to? Why do turret plates give 160 gold each, rewarding highly aggressive early-game champions and junglers for less risk? Why are the damage levels and kit minimums of the game constantly going up? (Sylas is literally a concept that used to be a joke because it would be broken like crazy...) Why are there random number generated events in the game that can cause a huge influence? Why does riot discard previous decisions and policies "because they can" or "change is good" ?

Leetri3 votes

You're not punished for doing what you're supposed to do, you're punished for being ahead and still dying and making mistakes. Literally no one was crying their eyes out over kill bounties "punishing you for doing what you're supposed to do", but somehow it's a problem when you got the gold from playing PvE?

3TWarrior1 votes

the overall point being, it's all about gold

if you are farming well, you are playing correctly. If your opponent exerts kill pressure, they are already cutting down your farm at a small loss for them for the potential of a big gain (one kill easily being 2 - 3 waves of minions)

it's an extreme example but it will show how quickly the numbers change

according to the wiiki, your bounty goes up by 50 when you exceed the opposing team's average of CS gold/4.3 by 300 and then 50 more per 200

even at base value, if the opposing team's average is at 300 below you but the opponent hits a power spike and kills you, suddenly they are now ahead of you in gold by 50 + minions and will likely continue to maintain their kill pressure

it's small but it can easily stack up for advantages, especially if you lose kill pressure the later it gets in the game (such as tank champions)

Sewer Side3 votes

{quoted}

Like should the entire match be irrelevant until 30 minutes? Should we just remove the early game entirely and start it 30 minutes in and give everyone equal gold and XP?

This is exactly my frustration with S4 fans. The game used to be easily stalled and turtled with T2 Barrier Shields, T3 Lazers and rapid turret regeneration that doing anything for the first 25 minutes of the game did not matter at all and then following 25 minutes was a long ass slog chipping away at each other’s defenses.

So you still spent 25 minutes of the game where shit actually matters but the total game length was inflated to a 50 minute grind.

Longer games doesn’t equal quality games. 45+ minute games being the norm isn’t fun. 45 minutes should only be the upper limit of very close matches.

General Esdeath 1 votes

{quoted}

Lmao what? If you have a lead and you fuck up once you've completely thrown it back to the enemy. Now bounties even punish you for zoning enemies off farm. Every gold advantage you gain is now tracked by a bounty system so messing up just one single time while being ahead is extraordinarily punishing. Gold for last hitting has been lowered while passive gold generation has been increased a few times now as well.

How much does the game need to do exactly? Does there need to be a reset button where the gold is leveled because you got behind? Should playing better than the enemy just be irrelevent? Should you not be behind for fucking up? Should the enemy not be rewarded for playing better? Where is the line between "catch up" and "being coddled for playing poorly"?

Like should the entire match be irrelevant until 30 minutes? Should we just remove the early game entirely and start it 30 minutes in and give everyone equal gold and XP?

The game right now is actually relatively easy to come back in currently. If you think the game is as snowbally as last season you're straight up delusional. Even damage is way down from last season after multiple keystones getting nerfs, things like Duskblade getting multiple nerfs, ignite damage nerfs, runes nerfs, etc.

I'd honestly prefer damage be lowered so snowballing isn't as bad as it is now. Snowballing in kills for items should provide more than just raw damage, it should bring stats like CDR, HP, mana, move speed, attack speed, etc.

Dingding1232 votes

Naaah snowballing's still as bad as ever. Bounties don't matter when your entire team is down two levels (SOMETIMES hyperbolic).

The Baron nerf really didn't help the game out much. That's the primary reason games are longer now than they were last season.

Rock MD8 votes

The issue with that is stats are just that; stats. If you have more of them you win. Reducing snowballing by reducing stats on the same level/ratio doesn't really change anything, it just ups the TtK.

Also, tanks will just sit on you and kill you if they're ahead. We've had this issue since s4 where the defensive masteries were just so good on specific champions you burn all your spells and look like an idiot because you got outstatted by Mundo.

Turning down TtK is another thing though. Although the biggest offenders of having a disproportionately high TtK to what it should be have been largely neutered (mainly supports were getting too much damage half a year ago, like the Alistar 100-0 on Zven).

That being said, snowballing will just happen in many games because of player perception and disproportionate game knowledge. Snowballing can be as little as knowing more so you will consistently impact the map more. It doesn't always have to do with being overwhelming in damage. Most of the games I play are still absolutely winnable at the 10-15 minute mark, but because of player perception that games are over, they stop trying and being proactive and that kills games more than bad play. I don't think it's nearly as bad as people make it out to be.

I think the real issue at the moment is that the sustain tools are too strong, and it makes it so some champions get a relatively free laning phase when that should be their weakness, and other champions who get ahead can't be beaten, because your best chance to beat them is to poke them, but if they can heal it all up they can bide their time until they all in. Weakening sustain tools like Conq. and the domination tree, and double dark seal/cpot might be better options.

HateDaddy1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Rock MD,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=VGsPOF8A,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2019-03-23T21:35:08.058+0000)

The issue with that is stats are just that; stats. If you have more of them you win. Reducing snowballing by reducing stats on the same level/ratio doesn't really change anything, it just ups the TtK.

Also, tanks will just sit on you and kill you if they're ahead. We've had this issue since s4 where the defensive masteries were just so good on specific champions you burn all your spells and look like an idiot because you got outstatted by Mundo.

Turning down TtK is another thing though. Although the biggest offenders of having a disproportionately high TtK to what it should be have been largely neutered (mainly supports were getting too much damage half a year ago, like the Alistar 100-0 on Zven).

That being said, snowballing will just happen in many games because of player perception and disproportionate game knowledge. Snowballing can be as little as knowing more so you will consistently impact the map more. It doesn't always have to do with being overwhelming in damage. Most of the games I play are still absolutely winnable at the 10-15 minute mark, but because of player perception that games are over, they stop trying and being proactive and that kills games more than bad play. I don't think it's nearly as bad as people make it out to be.

I think the real issue at the moment is that the sustain tools are too strong, and it makes it so some champions get a relatively free laning phase when that should be their weakness, and other champions who get ahead can't be beaten, because your best chance to beat them is to poke them, but if they can heal it all up they can bide their time until they all in. Weakening sustain tools like Conq. and the domination tree, and double dark seal/cpot might be better options.

Perception is often defined by reality, so I think it’s entirely fair to say snowballing is a problem - it depends on how deep you want to go with this conversation. Nevertheless, it is true that winnable games exist and the perception of snowballing is what holds people back, not the snowballing itself. As I stated earlier though, this is because people notice when big come backs happen way more than they’ll notice or tally the amount of times they’re stomped. The funny thing is, we agree on most things here (tone down offensive trees/keystones) but our conclusions that they lead to are different.

Rock MD3 votes

{quoted}

Perception is often defined by reality, so I think it’s entirely fair to say snowballing is a problem - it depends on how deep you want to go with this conversation. Nevertheless, it is true that winnable games exist and the perception of snowballing is what holds people back, not the snowballing itself. As I stated earlier though, this is because people notice when big come backs happen way more than they’ll notice or tally the amount of times they’re stomped. The funny thing is, we agree on most things here (tone down offensive trees/keystones) but our conclusions that they lead to are different.

I've checked my Mobalytics GPI and one of my favorite stats is that, at the time, I had a comeback score of 70.

It mostly means if I fall behind, I play it pretty well and can get back into the game. And this was against high diamond/low master players so while they're animals they don't leave nearly as many opportunities to just come back.

The reason my score is this high is because the only games I ever say yes to forfeits are ones where

  1. Their team is ahead and nobody wants to be the first one into fights/initiate. Those games are lost because people will just sit behind tower and bitch while the enemy team actually plays the game.

  2. Someone got tilted and played poorly early on -> losing all desire to play properly (and it shows in their gameplay).

Games are definitely much easier to come back from than before.

Also, the thing is that burst has gotten nerfed so much recently and it just doesn't feel great. I think going for sustain is optimal since it's just so hard to push people out of lane now and I'd much rather go back to standard DRing start.

ProfDrDeath1 votes

I think the real issue at the moment is that the sustain tools are too strong, and it makes it so some champions get a relatively free laning phase when that should be their weakness, and other champions who get ahead can't be beaten, because your best chance to beat them is to poke them, but if they can heal it all up they can bide their time until they all in. Weakening sustain tools like Conq. and the domination tree, and double dark seal/cpot might be better options.

While I generally agree with your point, this part is iffy.

I would not call current Conqueror a sustain tool in the specific context of offering champions a free laning phase. The sustain effect is gated behind the stacking mechanic and being restricted to champions only, which means that poking a Conqueror user will still be effective. Unless you play into their game of long trades and drawn-out fights, that is - but that is far removed from poking. The sustain tools that allow for the neutralization of lanes are found more in the Domination tree (Taste of Blood and, to a lesser extent, Ravenous Hunter), in the Inspiration tree (Biscuit Delivery and Time Warp Tonic) and in items like the Dark Seal ad Corrupting Potion like you mention.

3TWarrior1 votes

mundo is not a tank, he is a juggernaut. Also, every time that has happened, Riot buffed him in stupid ways, such as multiplying his ultimate healing by 2.5 ...

Rock MD3 votes

{quoted}

mundo is not a tank, he is a juggernaut. Also, every time that has happened, Riot buffed him in stupid ways, such as multiplying his ultimate healing by 2.5 ...

Wow you sure owned me with facts and logic.

Point is season 4 was a season where defensive masteries were so strong champions built full tank and sat on you while you tickled them.

Imagine Poppy 2-3 seasons ago. Everybody who specced into that tree was that tanky.

iDarkWind4 votes

Funny, because in my ranked games when I get a lead is quite hilarious that my enemy laner gets the same gold off killing me with a shut down bounty while I kill him 3 consecutive times. How do you explain that? Calling this season a snowball meta is the biggest bullshit I've heard. Also, I never understood the logic of: If a early game comp plays well and snowballs the game wich lead to a stomp (AKA the reason you pick early game champions in first place) why should you be able to fuck it up in the early game and expect the riot to give you another chance to win the game?

HateDaddy2 votes

{quoted}

Funny, because in my ranked games when I get a lead is quite hilarious that my enemy laner gets the same gold off killing me with a shut down bounty while I kill him 3 consecutive times. How do you explain that? Calling this season a snowball meta is the biggest bullshit I've heard. Also, I never understood the logic of: If a early game comp plays well and snowballs the game wich lead to a stomp (AKA the reason you pick early game champions in first place) why should you be able to fuck it up in the early game and expect the riot to give you another chance to win the game?

If you got a lead that big and died, you absolutely fucked up horribly and chances are continued to at such a degree that you allowed them back into it. To be honest, when people have a slight clue on what to do, staying ahead is incredibly easy.

iDarkWind3 votes

Fucked up horribly? Are you joking or? If I was a tank, YES I would have fucked up horribly, but If I am an squishy champion being fed doesn't make me tankier when I buy offensive items. Getting a gank and basicly losing all your lead off that happens very easly - wich lead to a comeback of the enemy. What you complain about here makes no sense whatoever because it does not represent the truth of the actual state of the game.

HateDaddy2 votes

{quoted}

Fucked up horribly? Are you joking or? If I was a tank, YES I would have fucked up horribly, but If I am an squishy champion being fed doesn't make me tankier when I buy offensive items. Getting a gank and basicly losing all your lead off that happens very easly - wich lead to a comeback of the enemy. What you complain about here makes no sense whatoever because it does not represent the truth of the actual state of the game.

What you’re complaining about is you are getting ganked and losing a lead, and one gank is not going to make your lead disappear. If you’ve killed your laner that many times, you’ll be ahead a few levels, have way more than 1k gold up on them because you’ll have acquired gold through kills and a CS lead, while simultaneously denying them. If they’ve managed to come back and kill you, it wasn’t because of an albeit flawed and busted bounty system. It’s because you’ve massively screwed the pooch. Snowballing is still a problem because anti snowballing mechanics are shit (bounty system and just try to attempt to outdamage your opponent) that don’t work and are horribly designed and staying ahead requires very little effort.

BladeSteel1 votes

Multiple challenger players have said that this season ia great because they if they “feed” a couple kills, they jusy wait and kill the person that’s ahead and boom, they’re back in the game. I would trust them over you.

Yenn1 votes

{quoted}

Multiple challenger players have said that this season ia great because they if they “feed” a couple kills, they jusy wait and kill the person that’s ahead and boom, they’re back in the game. I would trust them over you.

That's not the reality outside of Challenger. The issue isn't just someone feeding 'a couple' kills, it's someone feeding 10+ kills and putting themselves in such a position that there's actually nothing they can possibly do to become relevant before the game ends.

BladeSteel1 votes

That's only an issue in low Bronze- Iron, and if that isn't "the reality outside of Challenger" how do they get to Challenger in the first place? Look at yourself and your plays.

Looking at your two most recent losses, your support did better than you did overall. In your kennen game, did you help other lanes or sit in your own all game? Having a huge teamfighting ult does you nothing if you don't help your team. Considering your Lux support, Katarina mid, and Caitlyn adc were in 12 or more kills means they were together fighting. You were in 7 kills. With a teamfighting ultimate. That shows you didn't try to help, and it looks like a winnable game, both teams had "feeders" (they had Jax and Kayle, you had Caitlyn and Vi) and People ahead (Lux, Katarina, you (if you didn't stay top lane all game), on their team they had Eve and...oh...thats basically it.

Looking at the timeline for the game, They got a little ahead early in kills. However from Min 21 to min 29 of the game, your team got 14 kills, allowing you to come back from being 5k gold behind. part of that gold was from bounties. Then you lost the game. However during that entire time your team got 14 kills, you didn't get a single tower top lane. You didn't get the kills midlane, you didn't help your team that much, and so you can't blame them.

In your last 10 ranked games I saw 3 people with 10 or more deaths. 2 were in the same game and on opposite teams and you won. The other was on the team you went against WHICH YOU LOST. So getting 10 deaths in a game does not automatically mean you lose, nor does it appear to be a problem for you in your games. So I ask, Where are these "someone feeds 10+ kills and there is nothing to do" games you speak of? They don't seem that common for you.

Yenn1 votes

{quoted}

That's only an issue in low Bronze- Iron, and if that isn't "the reality outside of Challenger" how do they get to Challenger in the first place? Look at yourself and your plays.

Looking at your two most recent losses, your support did better than you did overall. In your kennen game, did you help other lanes or sit in your own all game? Having a huge teamfighting ult does you nothing if you don't help your team. Considering your Lux support, Katarina mid, and Caitlyn adc were in 12 or more kills means they were together fighting. You were in 7 kills. With a teamfighting ultimate. That shows you didn't try to help, and it looks like a winnable game, both teams had "feeders" (they had Jax and Kayle, you had Caitlyn and Vi) and People ahead (Lux, Katarina, you (if you didn't stay top lane all game), on their team they had Eve and...oh...thats basically it.

Looking at the timeline for the game, They got a little ahead early in kills. However from Min 21 to min 29 of the game, your team got 14 kills, allowing you to come back from being 5k gold behind. part of that gold was from bounties. Then you lost the game. However during that entire time your team got 14 kills, you didn't get a single tower top lane. You didn't get the kills midlane, you didn't help your team that much, and so you can't blame them.

In your last 10 ranked games I saw 3 people with 10 or more deaths. 2 were in the same game and on opposite teams and you won. The other was on the team you went against WHICH YOU LOST. So getting 10 deaths in a game does not automatically mean you lose, nor does it appear to be a problem for you in your games. So I ask, Where are these "someone feeds 10+ kills and there is nothing to do" games you speak of? They don't seem that common for you.

You know absolutely nothing about my plays in these games, because you weren't in them and didn't watch them, and your overall understanding of the game is too poor to be making any sort of criticism.

It's not just someone dying 10 times, it's also bottom lane dying 5 times each, or everyone dying too many times early and all of the gold being concentrated into one champion.

I could go over everything idiotic about your post (thinking Kennen can somehow manage to get an ult off on Braum + Sivir lmao, ignoring the insanely fed Eve, ignoring that Kennen cannot 1v1 Jax with Spear of Shojin, not noticing that I'm almost tied for most damage to champions), but at this point you're just derailing the thread. Mods need to start deleting this bullshit.

BladeSteel1 votes

Lol. ok "insanely fed eve" who had the same amount of items as you, less items than kat. "kennen cannot 1v1 jax with spear of shojin" when why the f were you top lane instead of teamfighting? win teamfights with kennen ult, flank them! you can't get ult off on braum+sivir, well flank them. Your teammates got ults off (Katarina) that are harder to land and keep than yours. (yes I did watch the game). How do you know my understanding of the game is too poor? You don't know me, and from watching your gameplay, your understanding of the game is extremely lacking. You did damage WOW so gud. But did you get anything from doing "damage"? nope. Not very many kills, almost no towers, almost no assists. Essentially, to your team, you were useless.

Blame everyone else but yourself, like you do in all your posts, and never learn. GG ez.

Done with the well known Troll on the boards [slayer-jinx-wink]

HateDaddy1 votes

{quoted}

Multiple challenger players have said that this season ia great because they if they “feed” a couple kills, they jusy wait and kill the person that’s ahead and boom, they’re back in the game. I would trust them over you.

Incredibly small sample size

Need to see evidence of this, not just “well I heard them say it, so...”

And you are free to trust whatever you want, and to disagree with me. But when you post about it, I’m also free to tell you that you’re wrong and you don’t really have any evidence or logical thought patten on display to back-up what you’re saying.

BladeSteel1 votes

You have yet to say anything about why bounties are bad besides "they're bad because I say so". So I respond with "challenger players say they're good for comebacks". And that's it. I don't have to have evidence because you have none. You can pull any "evidence" out of your behind, but its just from your point of view. From my point of view the bounty systems are fine, and help with comebacks. I've been looking at multiple people's games and watching, not just my own. I love to spectate games and analyze. I've seen comebacks where one team is ahead by 10 kills, the other team comes back and wins. And these are Plat/Diamond games. I've also seen games where the losing team can't capitalize on the huge bounty the other team has and they lose even harder. So yes, I think bounties are good. They help good players who get behind because of a mistake get back in the game. For trash players, they lose even harder because they can't get that bounty, allowing the system to know better where they belong. When they play against people their own skill, they'll be able to cash in the bounty and make comebacks if they get behind.

TLDR you say: "they're bad because its easy for good players to stay ahead", well that's the point of them. They help players who make little mistakes but are good at the game a chance to come back, but "trash" players (compared to those that are ahead) don't get that chance, and should they?

Jennifer4204 votes

"snowball" nah thats not the problem. the problem is stuff like 0/10 zed that ults you, misses his q, but lands his autoattack+e and then kills you.

Yenn4 votes

It's almost like Riot quite literally artificially prolonged game length while simultaneously increasing how hard games snowball by introducing plating.

I don't think this can be fixed, at this point. The game has been rewarding people for playing like dumb monkeys for so long that even if they did address the balance issues with pacing and snowballing, the player aspect would remain broken.

The snowballing is usually the direct result of one person feeding their lane opponent through constant aggressive plays with low (if any) chance of success. They get so far behind that they have no chance of becoming relevant before the game ends, and their opponent rotates to other lanes with literally thousands of gold in advantage. There are times where counterpicks happen, but most of the time the feeding is preventable.

Karunamon1 votes

{quoted}

It's almost like Riot quite literally artificially prolonged game length while simultaneously increasing how hard games snowball by introducing plating.

I'm going to be the contrarian here and say that plating increased game length where it mattered. Now, if you die off botlane it's not "botlane lost, gg", you actually have one, maybe two more chances to try to salvage it. Extended stays trying to poke out a tower are easily punished by a jungler with map awareness. It definitely feels better.

But of course, they couldn't take two steps forward (yay, more comeback chance) without taking one step back (MOAR SNOWBALL), so they give out gold for it.

{quoted}

Multiple challenger players have said that this season ia great because they if they “feed” a couple kills, they jusy wait and kill the person that’s ahead and boom, they’re back in the game. I would trust them over you.

Challenger players are effectively playing a different game than the rest of us. Balance changes and core mechanics are directed at their play, not ours. When they play a game, more likely than not they will have a team that knows what they're doing.

Meanwhile down here in <= gold, coordination and teamplay is a rare exception, not the rule.

Monlyth2 votes

Turret plating is one system that strikes me as ridiculous. Why did Riot put it in the game if their goal is to reduce snowballs? You're not going to do any significant damage to a turret unless you're winning your lane, so turret plating seems like a system that exists purely to increase snowballing. I personally think it needs to be dropped.

Handy Sandy 1 votes

Because people tend to snowball off roams. If you get a similar amount of gold by staying in lane as your opponent roams, it reduces how far they got ahead from said roam. but this can still get countered with good wave management by the roamer.

You can usually get at least 1 plate by the time they get back, if you're ad or build attack speed probably 2.

mack91122 votes

The game is literally the same as it was when I started in season 3 stop bitching and play better.

SomeOneButNoOne2 votes

I'd like to see this guy in a s2 setting, when there was no catch up xp, so when you got behind, YOU WERE behind.

You see, right now, odds of someone being 3levels above you, are so miniscule due to catch up xp, that it's kinda sad.

Before the catch up xp, imagine... you're playing Midlane. You're vs Zed. You fuck up level 3, he all ins you, you die. You. Are. Fucked.

He is going to hit 6, kill you/xp zone you, and then in 3 minutes, you're either going to be 0/5; level 6 or, 0/1; level 6 under the 2nd turret. Riot has taken SO MUCH skill expression out of the game. They even allow you to recover, after you have LITERALY been OUTLANED, a person has OUTMANAGED the waves, ZONED you, and MADE SURE you get no gold, and RIOT is like "Well, they kinda hung in there under the tower, so if they kill this guy when he dives them, he can make up some gold he lost."

Earlier, if Pantheon started snowballing on you, all and this is literaly, ALL you could do, is sob, cry, and hope that your Jungler camps the shit out of your mid/bot and that they can carry you (taking panth as an example as he's a known lane bully).

If the enemy jungle stole your camps, killed you in your jungle, etc, you were legitmately taken out of the game. You would need a MIRACLE to comeback into the game. Wich is how the game should be. If someone invades you 8 times, kills you 5 of those, and takes 75% of your camps, you SHOULD be 4 levels behind.

Now? Catch up xp. You're 1, maybe 2 levels behind if you know how to avoid the enemy jungler properly. And you have a shot at getting their bounty.

You know, the money that they have EARNED by outplaying you? You can pretty much get 25-50% of it in 1 outplay/kill/their mistake. It's so dumb to get punished for outplaying someone, and if that is what you call "snowballing", then we need MORE snowballing, where you get PUNISHED for not knowing what you're doing in lane, you get PUNISHED for dying, and you DEFINATELY get PUNISHED when you're getting outjungled instead of being handed a silver plate full of xp (even though jungle is in questionable spot rn).

Current system is so flawed, to cater to bad players, that it literaly punishes you for playing well. That should never be the case. If someone manages to completely destroy you in every aspect of the game, you should stay destroyed unless you manage to comeback on your own, and not by getting spoon fed xp & gold.

The dumbest shit that should never happens, actually happens right now. You could have a laner going 3/0, fuck up ones, and the lane turns on them for that one mistake. It's so horrendous that it's sad. This game is but a shadow of what it used to be, just because RIOT keeps catering to people who refuse to improve their gameplay, and they blame it on "bad system", "snowballing", etc.

In my personal opinion, the catch up xp system should be removed. Same with the bounties for just doing well, and adress gold funneling strategies in another way, other then punished for being better making your 1 slip up able to screw up the advantige you were building up for 15-20minutes.

Gluttonous Beru1 votes

ye i tried playing a few rounds today aswell had 2nd most farm was 1/0/1 but couldnt leave lane bcs of sylas perma shoving me in nonetheless i also kept him in lane and pinged his position with my pings and other wards which didnt matter since the enemy akali was 6/0 already pushed down 2 towers and bot didnt look better my team surrendered minute 21 now this would be fine if it was like a once in 10 games thing but happens atleast 25% of the time if not 50% of the time i play this game the longest games i had were 30 minutes bcs we intentionaly extended them to have a little more fun

im done with trying to have fun in this game for now and will look back into this game in a few months

Handy Sandy 1 votes

Snowballing is still a problem, but it’s not a problem in that it exists - it’s a problem that it is simply too overwhelming once it begins.

thats why bounty exists, once u kill them u get closer to their level. gold can easily jump from person to person deciding who's the strongest on the team and because of this it's not "get ahead and you just stay ahead for the whole game" it's more like "get ahead and stay ahead until ur bounty gets taken"

OneBarrel1 votes

So basically you want to punish good plays/good players by not allowing them to close out a game that they've earned? That doesn't seem very logical.

GigglesO1 votes

Defense options and lower damage is what made this game great to begin with. Its too bad riot is embracing the ADHD Meta.

SomeOneButNoOne1 votes

{quoted}

Defense options and lower damage is what made this game great to begin with. Its too bad riot is embracing the ADHD Meta.

It's too bad RIOT is embracing rewarding people for losing. That is the problem.

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