So HOW exactly this is balanced?

Ahristocats·Jun 18, 2017·60 votes·4,167 views

https://i.gyazo.com/3d22c79f2bd83810f6b2d801cac7c793.png

https://i.gyazo.com/ece555d739465f16a931b1498b1b49cb.png

Nice, you nerfed her late game damage when she's a hyper carry nice, you nerfed an item combination with her which is the worst idea ever because she was as strong with shiv/rfc than runnan

And, of course with all of this you didn't even touch her traps didn't even give counterplay to the enemies against it

you can't wait for traps to expire, it lasts 90 mana you can't wait until cait is oom, traps cost 20 mana

you can't wait until minions trigger them on top of it, the arm time is somewhat low as she can WITH BLACK MAGIC place them instantly unlike jhin who has to throw them

so how? how is this balanced? you can't lane against this champ, and she gets to win 52.5% of the time while having an insane ban rate+pick rate?

her trap duration should not be that long, it's just overkill.....

126 Comments

MarshbouyJun 18, 201789 votes

you can't wait for traps to expire, it lasts 90 mana

BRB mom, be back in just a mana

AhristocatsJun 18, 201713 votes

well, i guess it's too late to eddit now but everyone understood me

cait traps are sieging tools, but she doesn't need 90 sec duration on traps to siege, this just makes her laning phase zoning incredibly toxic

if she needs a lot of traps to siege, reducing her trap cd+duration at the same time might balances her laning phase as she would end up oom more often if she wants to zone you in early game

MarshbouyJun 18, 20175 votes

cait traps are sieging tools, but she doesn't need 90 sec duration on traps to siege, this just makes her laning phase zoning incredibly toxic

i disagree. Most sieges last longer than 90 seconds.

I think the best nerf she could get right now is losing the ability to place a trap on top of an enemy champion.

AhristocatsJun 18, 201710 votes

{quoted}

i disagree. Most sieges last longer than 90 seconds.

which are?

azir soldiers expire twice faster under a tower heimer towers are not unkillable same for any other similar things like zyra plants

you can not kill cait traps

minions cannot trigger them, you're literally forced to walk on it and take a massive enchanced late game hyper carry damage she will have 300 ad +headshot scales with crti chance, crit damage, and bonus ad, and traps gives even more damage, it can crit and she can apply shiv+rfc bonus damge

MarshbouyJun 18, 20178 votes

So? You can walk around them. You can have a tank take them out. you can bait her into being engaged on by triggering a trap. You can zone her so that she can't utilize the headshot damage without problems.

this is a waste of my time though. you are too salty to think anything other than gutting her is the answer.

AhristocatsJun 18, 201723 votes

{quoted}

So? You can walk around them.

no you can't, she can trap an entire lane she can trap things like baron entrance and it lasts 90 sec

and if you trigger them, you get 1k damage from exactly 1300 range + revealed for 9 seconds

{quoted}

You can have a tank take them out.

yes indeed, but that means you can do literally nothing against them but taking free damage

{quoted}

you can bait her into being engaged on by triggering a trap. You can zone her so that she can't utilize the headshot damage without problems.

how can you zone her to not utilize the damage if you're the one zoned because your team cannot go through a barrage of traps?

{quoted}

this is a waste of my time though. you are too salty to think anything other than gutting her is the answer.

No i am not, i do not care at the moment about cait as she is permabanned unlike other problems like kha'zix(who's being nerfed on pbe) and nunu

however i'm talking about a problem that needs to be adressed if cait wants to be balanced her traps having literally 0 counterplay is a problem

the balance team trying to balance her by nerfing her late game damage is not a good idea

Moooose2Jun 18, 20171 votes

If you step on a trap as thresh, most caits even in master are trashcans and channel an auto. Easiest hooks to land ever. They don't look at ranges or your playermodel starting a hook animation. They just like to chunk your healthbar.

The FastJun 18, 20173 votes

Thresh Hooks are 1100 range, headshot is 1300. Just fyi

Mira Arya EntheJun 18, 201717 votes

WITH BLACK MAGIC

Spooky. Upvoted.

TóxicoChicoGuapoJun 18, 201710 votes

i think her traps should be annoying. it gives her a unique identity.

but there are problems that make her overloaded and oppressive:

1.) E does not need to give her a head shot. the natural feel against a champion poking you from behind traps is to want to get to them. this gives her absurd damage on her ESCAPE. just remove the fact her E gives a head shot. it gives her a potential burst combo for fucks sake. she's already annoying to try to get to. she doesn't need damage for using something she was going to use anyway.

2.) traps need to time out UNDER YOUR OWN tower very quickly like EVERY OTHER TRAP. zyra plants, shaco boxes, etc. all time or get killed by tower quickly. cait traps dont? why the fuck not.

SociopathFriendJun 19, 20171 votes

I like how these threads never point out the other abilities that aren't targeted by the tower- like Elise spider spell or Maokai seedlings or Gragas barrel or Jinx traps or Lux singularity or Orianna ball or Veigar walls or Viktor ultimate or Anivia wall.

But Cait's traps? Those are BAD and need to time out faster under turret even though they're a super small area to trigger and you can see them be laid down, unlike a majority of the other traps. Want them to be targetable? Sweet- make them invisible like every other targetable trap.

Champions with targetable traps: Jhin Nidalee Shaco Teemo How about that? Every single one is invisible.

I get the Cait hate, but the traps are not what needs hit, at least not in the knee-cappping method of making the duration cut in half under a turret. What SHOULD happen is what Riot already started doing, making it harder for her to push you to your turret to set up the siege by hitting her attack speed. Not only did they give her a nerf in that department, she got a specific nerf to make one of the attack speed items less viable on her.

TóxicoChicoGuapoJun 19, 20172 votes

all of those are not spammable and can't keep multiple of them up under your tower at once. cait can have 3 minimum under your tower in lane phase alone. thats toxic as fuck. considering she pushes for free. that you can't even see one of them is also awful.

GULAG 4 UJun 18, 20178 votes

did her winrate even budge after the first nerfs?

PB4UAMEJun 18, 20173 votes

Nope, not even .1%. Her playrate actually increased though, iirc.

SalronJun 18, 20175 votes

yeah it went up by like half a percent I'm not even joking http://puu.sh/wntS9/e52d1acee2.png

GULAG 4 UJun 18, 20172 votes

what the fuck?

Sagan ForeverJun 18, 20175 votes

It turns out we were building her wrong the entire time.[zombie-nunu-bummed]

OceanicEyesJun 18, 20177 votes

Agree with the thread, and don't wanna be that guy but looks like you might want to edit some small stuff like "lasts 90 mana".

OceanicEyesJun 18, 20172 votes

Onto the actual bulk of the thread, traps are 100% what should be looked into. Cait should not be allowed to place them on top of someone for starters. Also can't say I'm a fan of how many she can line up to form trap walls. Perhaps a max range between traps could help prevent her completely locking somewhere down.

JhomasTeffersonJun 18, 20173 votes

something like the shaco boxes

SnakDatSmilesBakJun 18, 20173 votes

You can always walk between traps. She can't place them to completely wall off an area unless we're talking about extremely small choke points in the jg. Imo only problem is being unable to see traps under your tower.

BakedLotionJun 18, 20176 votes

{quoted}

You can always walk between traps. She can't place them to completely wall off an area unless we're talking about extremely small choke points in the jg. Imo only problem is being unable to see traps under your tower.

You actually can't walk past them if she places 5 in front of an inhibitor tower correctly unless u take ur sweet ass time trying to move one unit at a time as teemo. Anything larger than teemo? Good luck

LeetriJun 18, 20172 votes

All traps can be placed on top of other characters, no? Feels kinda clunky to make exceptions like that. People already bitch and moan that not everything is consistent in this game.

General Esdeath Jun 18, 20177 votes

I still stand by my 2015 statement:

The only reason Nidalee is not as dominant as Cait is because her traps don't snare and can be triggered by minions.

Now in 2017 I'll add that they don't let her get a free empowered auto attack from max range.

chipndip1Jun 18, 20173 votes

HEY

Double max range!

Sir FuzziJun 18, 20176 votes

Mini-crits on demand with damage ramp and double range being balanced. Can anyone point out where I was wrong here?

I'm not saying she is or isn't. I'm saying the concept requires so much attention it'll become impractical.

Tails9016Jun 18, 20175 votes

Veigar Is the only champ I will allow to use BLACK MAGIC, time to gut her traps

deoje299Jun 18, 20177 votes

Ekko

KarakotJun 18, 20174 votes

Uh ohh, looks like this week caitlyns name got drawn out of the "who do we complain about hat" that gameplay uses!

Jet SettJun 18, 201716 votes

Caitlyn has been getting complaints for more than a few weeks now, the threads might not have always made it to the top, but they were there. Sounds more like you're trying to discredit an actual problem by saying "oh there goes that Boards rascal!" like the boards is a whole entity with fickle opinions and not a congregation of people voicing their opinions.

ModAcademy KaynJun 18, 20173 votes

I think it's faulty that every ability should have loads and loads of counterplay. Some abilities are meant to have some layer of frustration to them, and to get rid of that frustration leads to the ability being useless.

You don't like 90 second traps? Well surprise, 45 seconds is an awfully short time relative to seiging. That's about two waves if you're pushed all the way to base. Speaking of that, being at Base is the only place where those traps become a problem. Siege further up in lane, and you just fall back if towers are down, or head into the jungle.

They aren't instant, they have a delay. Unless you stand still there isn't any way she could insta snare you with a trap without a partner. Meanwhile Jhin's trap have a much bigger hitbox, combo with even more damage come late game, from even farther range.

Captain Of CrazyJun 18, 20173 votes

jhin traps does not root you or give jhin massive aa range with free crit. and you can just walk right out of them. and actually cait has longer range on her traps its 800 units and jhin has 750 units.

AhristocatsJun 18, 20175 votes

it doesn't matter if jhin's traps have a bigger hitbox, why? because try to place a trap under someone as jhin and see what happens not only he throws them, but it also have an arm time like cait

45 sec is not low, in fact cait traps have 10 sec cd in late game, even if it's "only" two wave she can stack them back asap

and only two wave, like why do i need to remind you that towers are falling in one wave right now?

ModAcademy KaynJun 18, 20171 votes

Jhin's traps also slow and do massive damage if he hits ya with a skillshot from even further away. They have an arm time because his require more forethought than Caits. His lore, he uses them as an escape plan. Caits traps are much more aggressive, in game and lore.

45 is still relatively low when it comes to a Seige, and rigghhhttt like a Single wave is going to kill a tower with your whole team alive, and your mid laner standing by to clear waves.

Dextix LTJun 18, 20172 votes

Caits traps root you and she doesnt even need to hit a skillshot, she will just auto you from an increased range and it will do a LOT more damage than jhins skillshots. Its still too strong.

ModAcademy KaynJun 19, 20171 votes

Thats why the trap is visible. So you can avoid it, or allow your tank to break the line and allow a gap to be made for the rest of the team.

Dextix LTJun 19, 20171 votes

The problem with that is that you CANT avoid it. Due to how Cait can put her traps under turrets and in bottlenecks you CANT avoid it and will be hit by it, that is without counting in chain cc situations.

Also, the tank will also be taking huge damage, because cait shreds even tanks with her damage. So your suggestion for counterplay is to simply receive free damage from the enemy? Does not seem like a good strategy, especially since it doesnt work in lane when you are under your turret.

ModAcademy KaynJun 19, 20171 votes

If she's pushed enough in lane to out push you and your support, I argue you deserve it to a degree. If she's zoning under turret with traps, she's pushed and open to ganks.

The tanks jobs are to soak damage. If you can force a teamfight, and end a siege, one tank taking a bit of upfront damage instead of a carry is a nessecary trade.

Not every ability needs to have the same counterplay. Counterplay includes different ways of dealing with a problem. All I see from everyone is that they want the same braindead counterplay instead of adjusting to different strategies.

Dextix LTJun 19, 20171 votes

Ummmm, she is cait, unless you have a super agressive or op adc, you aint outpushing her unless she allows it. And she is not really that open to ganks, since she has a massive range advantage a gank will not be effective unless your jungler is a cc tank and the enemy has a bad support. Both require such specifics that do not depend on counterplay.

The tanks job is to soak damage IN THE FIGHT. Not before one. A tank is not supposed to lose 20-40% hp before a fight just because the enemy has a cait. And since the traps offer not only huge damage but also cc an opponent, you aint ending a siege easily, because while you are cced your ass is open to every skillshot under the sun.

Not every ability needs the same counterplay, yes, because all abilities are different. However ALL abilities need to have some VIABLE counterplay. Taking damage with no way to avoid it is NOT a strategy.

ModAcademy KaynJun 19, 20171 votes

It's a sacrifice, but Cait is made to Siege. So do you want to persist under the siege longer, or do you want to end it and fight. So maybe, lower the damage to make that nessecary sacrifice less painful.

It's like Thresh cage, someone tankier should break the wall first, so they can continue the fight.

AhristocatsJun 19, 20171 votes

ah i see now

thresh cage lasts 90 sec good to know

ModAcademy KaynJun 19, 20171 votes

If you decide to wait out Thresh's cage you either die or the enemy gets away. The main comparison that's being made is the sacrifice of a tankier champion's health in order to advance a fight. Don't be pedantic.

AhristocatsJun 19, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dr Mercy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=V85EgEep,comment-id=00170001000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-06-19T19:36:33.573+0000)

If you decide to wait out Thresh's cage you either die or the enemy gets away.

no i don't, in fact i can destroy thresh in 2v2 if i don't trigger his nuke else than his nuke he has nothing, he has 47 base ad trash base as, his E passive has an infinity cd once he attacks and he has 16 base armor

you can wait 3 sec, you cannot wait 90 sec

Dextix LTJun 20, 20171 votes

Honestly, it is not even a proper nuke, its damage is negligible when compared to someone like blitz even. I have played the match up a lot, and the slow is the biggest strong point of the wall, definetly not the damage.

Dextix LTJun 20, 20171 votes

If cait is made to siege, why is she great at constant dps, burst dps AND waveclearing then too, with good self-peel capabilities as a cherry on top? I am not against specializations. If you want to specialize her as the premier sieger, then nerf her other parts. Otherwise the traps ARE a problem. She has to choose, if she does not, then she is simply too good at too many things. I think that Riot has made it clear that they dont like generalists (Besides lee of course, because he is the poster boy) And currently, Caitlyn is a generalist.

And no, its not like threshes cage. The game is an ultimate ability on a high cooldown that deals damage only ONCE and that damage is FAR LOWER than what cait gets from her trap headshot. An adc can walk throuh that and not feel it. If you were talking about the wall before the nerfs it received, i would agree, but currently threshes cage serves the same function as veigars. It is there to slow/trap the opponent. Not to deal any actuall damage.

ChønklordJun 18, 20172 votes

You realize that if these boards had their way, 90% of the champions would be nerfed / gutted so hard, no one would do much damage to each other and there'd be so much "counterplay" up the wazoo, playing any champ at all would feel like asshole, because their kits would be reduced to karth level movespeed and raka level damage.

#Face the facts; there is always going to be a few champs that stand out above the rest, during any given season.

This is because when you lower the power of one (or a couple) of "OP" champs, you increase the power of others.

It's a game with huge amount of characters and items and abilities; having 100% effective balance is not realistic, nor should we even want it that way.

aLawfulFalafelJun 18, 20176 votes

yes that is completely understood... ...by everybody

my question to you, how strong can one single champion be before someone is allowed to say "hey i think this champ is too strong"?

follow up question, how many grains of sand does it take before a hill becomes a mountain?

ElikainJun 18, 20172 votes

Her win rate isn't absurdly high, as one would think. If you're saying that Cait is super strong, i've expected to see a lot higher win rate.

As for the annoyance factor when playing against her, yes. Even Morgana can block her CC from both traps and the net BUT she can't block the application of Cait's Headshot buff. Her CC isn't really much of a problem as much as her damage is.

Runaan's wasn't nerfed specifically for Cait, it was nerfed because almost any carry worth its salt in the meta was buying it as a go to zeal item. Shiv and PD weren't even worthy options to consider. There's also no point in absolutely gutting the champion and then slowly bringing them back over a few patches.

AhristocatsJun 18, 20172 votes

except that you're forgetting something

cait was nerfed for having 52 or 51% win rate+30% pick rate

now she has 52.5% win rate and 30% pick rate

if i follow logic, it must mean that she's super strong and needs a nerf

GrokmirJun 18, 20172 votes

If cait really needs her 90 second traps to siege or whatever, how about we just give her traps a duration reduction while in range of enemy towers BUT have the reduction scale to 0 with caits level. That way her early game is less opressive and she can still siege mid/late game.

Imo starting with a 60-50% reduction would be fair.

45 seconds is a long time during lanephase.