@Meddler The Nasus buffs are great and I think this is in the right direction @

HateDaddy·Oct 5, 2016·30 votes·2,914 views

For clarify:

Nasus Fury of the Sands (R) [now converts damage done into bonus armor and magic resist instead of attack damage.]

I have a few questions..

What do they cap out at? His bonus attack damage he gains currently caps out at 240 if I'm not mistaken. 240 bonus resists on Armor/MR would be absurd even if it took quite a bit of time to add up.

How quickly will they generate and what's the conversion rate? Because nasus' AD does get to scary amounts if he's afforded the ability to stay near something but I feel like resists would need to generate faster than the bonus attack damage would to feel impactful.

Outside of these clarity issues, I still think Nasus needs %missing HP heals somewhere in his kit, even if very small amounts because even with this buff (assuming it goes through), he still would likely die before his resists stacked to anything significant.

Thanks baby

122 Comments

SohleksOct 5, 20169 votes

He gets bonus AD? Da fuq? And I thought I knew everything.

HateDaddyOct 5, 20165 votes

{quoted}

He gets bonus AD? Da fuq? And I thought I knew everything.

yes it's why he's good at soloing dragon and Baron once he completes about 4 1/2 items

MunchCrunchLunchOct 5, 20162 votes

lol? a bunch of champions can solo baron and dragon with half those items

The Blue RajahOct 5, 20164 votes

I'd love to see literally any champion solo baron with 2 items and a component.

TheI3igDaddyOct 7, 20161 votes

Nunu ?

RalanrOct 5, 20162 votes

Yeah. Was surprising to learn. It seems kinda redundant IMO because he has one AD ability and that alone has infinite scaling.

kile147Oct 5, 20161 votes

Yeah, it would make more sense if it gave him increased base attack damage. That would at least synergize with his build. Steraks+Trinity would become a lot scarier on him (and would probably warrant a slight nerf to the cap value so he doesn't end up with an extra 1000 damage on his Q).

RalanrOct 5, 20163 votes

Actually I don't think it makes sense for it to give him any AD at all, base or otherwise.

It seems kinda pointless when the champion is literally farming all day to make his Q a nuke. A little more AD from his ult is...well it's just cute.

"I have 500 stacks, but I'll definitely notice this extra AD in my ult"

I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of people didn't know it did that. Hell for a while I just thought his ult made him bigger and gave him more health, nothing else that made it different from Renekton's IMO!

DeathBurstOct 5, 20162 votes

Hum, actually his ult bonus AD stacks up to 240, so even with 500 stacks you still notice it ^^'

That fact-checking aside, I agree with the rest of your analysis.

Swiftstrike4Oct 5, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Actually I don't think it makes sense for it to give him any AD at all, base or otherwise.

It seems kinda pointless when the champion is literally farming all day to make his Q a nuke. A little more AD from his ult is...well it's just cute.

"I have 500 stacks, but I'll definitely notice this extra AD in my ult"

I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of people didn't know it did that. Hell for a while I just thought his ult made him bigger and gave him more health, nothing else that made it different from Renekton's IMO!

The additional AD made him a better duelist and kept him in lane so he could farm unless the enemy sent two people. The resistances push him towards teamfighting and away from split-pushing.

He will still die in teamfights and likely have fewer stacks because he isn't split-pushing. Maybe the resistances help him survive in team fights, but he is already easily killed and kited with current itemization routes that are popular.

My issue is that these changes push him in the direction of something he sort of already stinks at and diminishes his existing strengths.

Nasus stinks at team fights. Unless his kit is significantly changed (like wither becomes and aoe spell that effects multiple targets), additional resistance do not really help him.

Just because him being able to infinitely scale damage, doesn't mean the the bonus AD will go unnoticed.

If he teamfights more with this change then he will have probably lower stacks per game and will be grouped more. I don't think grouping is the issue with Nasus, his problems are mobility. He needs tenacity or just base stat buffs.

I would be totally fine with additional resistance AND the AD.

Big LincolnOct 5, 20164 votes

Q range also stacks with R now https://twitter.com/ManWolfAxeBoss/status/783459452238204929

I'm pretty happy about these changes, just hope that the armor/MR conversion builds quickly in a fight so it feels more worth something

do you think this will encourage him to build some damage, or will he just double down on sheen item -> full tank?

Ravenous HowlsOct 5, 20163 votes

Yes I agree wither is a great way to catch an enemy but with it's range and so much mobility and items like Rylai's and Frozen Mallet it is really hard to get in range of a target to do make your damage count. I would have preferred some better base stats and some tenacity over just a 15 sec MR/Armor buff.

Swiftstrike4Oct 5, 20162 votes

I like the idea of him gaining resistances during the ult, but the additional damage I think is what made him such a great duelist and a damage threat in a 1v1. I think I rather have the AD than the resistances in laning and split-pushing, and the resistances in the mid to late game if I have to teamfight.

I do think any defensive steroid for Nasus would help, I don't think him gaining resistances solves his main issues. He should remain kiteablem like the other juggernauts, but they all have other things in their kits to better help them gap close. This is what Nasus needs.

The tweak seems like it is a work in progress and it will be adjusted again before the end of the patching cycle. They could just simply give him resistances and AD on a more even split.

I am not sure how I feel about the change, but I do like that they are making the effort. I would rather that they grant Nasus movement speed or increased tenacity while he is using his ultimate. THAT would probably help a lot.

RalanrOct 5, 20162 votes

Uhh...Nasus's slow is his tool for getting closer. At max rank it's basically a stun because you're slowed by 90% (I might be wrong) and he'll have it back up when you get free.

kile147Oct 5, 20162 votes

*Snare/Root, not a stun since they can still fight back, even its at reduced effectiveness for auto attackers.

It's also not permanent since even at max rank with 45% CDR it has a 7.15 second cooldown with a 5 second duration. Has a lot of uptime but tbh it could be permanent for all that it matters, if he can't kill his target in 5 seconds he is probably going to die.

Swiftstrike4Oct 5, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Uhh...Nasus's slow is his tool for getting closer. At max rank it's basically a stun because you're slowed by 90% (I might be wrong) and he'll have it back up when you get free.

The slow is potent but it is not the same as the other juggernauts. Darius has apprehend and a slow and garen has his speed boost.

People have to GET CLOSE enough to Nasus for him to wither and it usually takes TWO withers to kill a target and that's if they don't have summoners and help. Either way the slow is effective against lower elo players, but in Gold and Platinum MOST players know how to play around wither.

It is a terrible gap close because it relies on the opponent getting in wither range while Darius and Garen have more intiate.

RalanrOct 5, 20161 votes

And when you consider that juggernauts are not supposed to have engage, you realize that this is intended.

Swiftstrike4Oct 5, 20162 votes

{quoted}

And when you consider that juggernauts are not supposed to have engage, you realize that this is intended.

But Juggernauts DO have engage or at least they have greater agency in picking their engages than Nasus. DrMundo has a movement speed buff with his ultimate, Darius has a grab (that can grab multiple targets and he can flash apprehend) and a slow, and Garen has a mobility boost and a silence.

What does Nasus have? A single target slow in which the enemy HAS to walk within the range of towards. He can take summoner 6 to ghost and wither, but in general it is still pretty shitty as your engage.

Illaoi is probably the only juggernaut without a true engage. But she WANTs the whole team to try to engage her so that she can use her ultimate.

RalanrOct 5, 20161 votes

You see when I say engage, I think of Amumu's Q, Sejuani's Q, Zac's slingshot, Sion Ult, Malphite ult, Maokai Root, Shen's Taunt, Alistar's combo, Leona's Q, etc.

I think of these fast or very noticeable but hard to stop abilities that ensure someone is going somewhere and they ain't gonna like it.

Darius is the closest but the range on it is more to prevent escape IMO. A simple movement speed boost is not enough to consider it an engage tool to me. Even Hecarim has an engage ult that isn't a movement speed increase.

Swiftstrike4Oct 5, 20161 votes

{quoted}

You see when I say engage, I think of Amumu's Q, Sejuani's Q, Zac's slingshot, Sion Ult, Malphite ult, Maokai Root, Shen's Taunt, Alistar's combo, Leona's Q, etc.

I think of these fast or very noticeable but hard to stop abilities that ensure someone is going somewhere and they ain't gonna like it.

Darius is the closest but the range on it is more to prevent escape IMO. A simple movement speed boost is not enough to consider it an engage tool to me. Even Hecarim has an engage ult that isn't a movement speed increase.

Yes I know the engage they have in their kits is inferior to other champion's engage. The point I am trying to make it that the other juggernauts have MORE engage relative to just Nasus . I think just the ability to choose when you want additional mobility grants a player enough "engage" to make a decision. Nasus lacks this entirely in his kit. He literally needs people to WALK within range, which a competent team won't do. Which is why I think instead of resistances, additional mobility and tenacity when he is using his ultimate helps him more and gives him SOMETHING to choose when and when not to fight without using a summoner.

RalanrOct 5, 20162 votes

The guy already has an infinite scaling damage ability. It should be hard to actually apply that in a fight.

He's basically the purest form of a juggernaut in their weaknesses. This buff will at least allow him to build some damage items without hurting his tankiness.

Swiftstrike4Oct 5, 20162 votes

{quoted}

The guy already has an infinite scaling damage ability. It should be hard to actually apply that in a fight.

He's basically the purest form of a juggernaut in their weaknesses. This buff will at least allow him to build some damage items without hurting his tankiness.

But now you are changing gears. The point I am making is that Nasus can't pick a fight the same way other juggernauts can because he lacks any type of engage or mobility. Infinite damage does not matter if you get chain CC'd in a fight. He probably WON'T build damage items because he already lacks survivability in teamfights anyways. He will probably build the same route with triforce being more frequently chosen over item 3025 and just be a damage sponge before he dies like he normally is.

This doesn't really help him with what he is good at and it takes away some of his strengths while trying to bandaid what he stinks at.

I could be wrong and maybe the extra AD won't be noticeable but the MR and Armor will be noticeable, but I think his main issue is mobiliy/tenacity.

RalanrOct 5, 20162 votes

Ok. I guess I just interpret juggernauts as not supposed to have effective tools for picking fights. Because if you suddenly gave one an easy to apply stun (not saying you'd give one to nasus, just an example) they'd become overbearing and much harder to avoid.

Swiftstrike4Oct 5, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Ok. I guess I just interpret juggernauts as not supposed to have effective tools for picking fights. Because if you suddenly gave one an easy to apply stun (not saying you'd give one to nasus, just an example) they'd become overbearing and much harder to avoid.

You are correct in that they don't have great engage, it is just they have more engage than Nasus.

I mean the juggernauts in general are suppose to not be incredibly great at teamfights, but they are suppose to be serviceable.

It sounds like they are going to make little tweaks to Nasus throughout the preseason, so I don't think this change specifically will go through in the next patch.

I wouldn't be surprised if they make two to three little adjustments to him in this patching cycle for PBE.

nami tfOct 5, 20161 votes

I've been thinking about this for a while, but what if Wither stole movement speed instead? Of course it'd have to be balanced through % ms steal but it could work for a better gap closer.

Or even better, implement a way for Nasus to taunt and have it work in gameplay and thematically.

Swiftstrike4Oct 5, 20161 votes

{quoted}

I've been thinking about this for a while, but what if Wither stole movement speed instead? Of course it'd have to be balanced through % ms steal but it could work for a better gap closer.

Or even better, implement a way for Nasus to taunt and have it work in gameplay and thematically.

I don't know it could work, but it also could feel really oppressive being a potent slow AND a movement speed steal in laning phase. It may be useful in teamfighting and in the mid-game. I think just buffing his movement speed or tenacity when ulting would be enough.

nami tfOct 5, 20161 votes

Well, the MS steal on the Wither would work as a movement speed buff, and subsequently, we can add a tenacity bonus onto his ult passive, maybe.

Swiftstrike4Oct 6, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Well, the MS steal on the Wither would work as a movement speed buff, and subsequently, we can add a tenacity bonus onto his ult passive, maybe.

I don't think MS steal is bad. I just think it may be too strong and people would complain? I don't know if you recall, but his wither range was further out at one point and they reduced it.

nami tfOct 6, 20161 votes

Is that so? I wasn't there for it (maybe)?

And I was also thinking maybe steal attack speed as well but that may ACTUALLY be too strong, since he already has his stacks.

EndlessSorcererOct 5, 20162 votes

With the exception of slows over 100% (i.e. full AP Nami), slows cannot reduce a champion below 110 MS.

While it is significant, you can still move at about one-third of a typical base movement speed.

Also, stuns prevent you from using abilities, autoattacks and items. Since slows don't do that, it has no relation to a stun whatsoever.

HateDaddyOct 5, 20161 votes

{quoted}

I like the idea of him gaining resistances during the ult, but the additional damage I think is what made him such a great duelist and a damage threat in a 1v1. I think I rather have the AD than the resistances in laning and split-pushing, and the resistances in the mid to late game if I have to teamfight.

I do think any defensive steroid for Nasus would help, I don't think him gaining resistances solves his main issues. He should remain kiteablem like the other juggernauts, but they all have other things in their kits to better help them gap close. This is what Nasus needs.

The tweak seems like it is a work in progress and it will be adjusted again before the end of the patching cycle. They could just simply give him resistances and AD on a more even split.

I am not sure how I feel about the change, but I do like that they are making the effort. I would rather that they grant Nasus movement speed or increased tenacity while he is using his ultimate. THAT would probably help a lot.

It's not really going to hurt his dueling that much, if at all honestly.

Ravenous HowlsOct 5, 20161 votes

{quoted}

It's not really going to hurt his dueling that much, if at all honestly.

Really? 240 AD is pretty huge in terms of damage. Even half that can make or break a tough trade...

HateDaddyOct 5, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lazarus Blade,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=V7EpTIEq,comment-id=000900010000,timestamp=2016-10-05T14:09:35.301+0000)

Really? 240 AD is pretty huge in terms of damage. Even half that can make or break a tough trade...

Sure but early/mid, in a duel, you will never ramp up that much AD. You get that from endless healthbags like dragon, Baron and 5v5s being in the middle of a team. You ain't getting that much AD from one champion and even if you did, which is probable late game, it still takes quite a bit of time for that AD to ramp up from your ults burn damage being converted. It's not instant. And what we're forgetting here, what he's losing in damage, he's gaining in being more fucking tanky.

The other element at play here is the %hp damage on his ult will typically output way more damage than his bonus AD AAs/Qs likely will during the entire duration.

Swiftstrike4Oct 5, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Sure but early/mid, in a duel, you will never ramp up that much AD. You get that from endless healthbags like dragon, Baron and 5v5s being in the middle of a team. You ain't getting that much AD from one champion and even if you did, which is probable late game, it still takes quite a bit of time for that AD to ramp up from your ults burn damage being converted. It's not instant. And what we're forgetting here, what he's losing in damage, he's gaining in being more fucking tanky.

The other element at play here is the %hp damage on his ult will typically output way more damage than his bonus AD AAs/Qs likely will during the entire duration.

I am curious, how long does it take to ramp up? I haven't actually experimented with it. Maybe we should take it into a bot game?

HateDaddyOct 5, 20162 votes

{quoted}

I am curious, how long does it take to ramp up? I haven't actually experimented with it. Maybe we should take it into a bot game?

It just depends

Go into a bot game, hit 6, get whatever item you feel like and solo dragon then by the end of your ultimate, watch your AD sky rocket.

The conversion rate is 6.2% of the damage dealt, and that's pretty reasonable.

SlashStrikerOct 5, 20162 votes

i got the feeling he will become unkillable tank otherwise the change is interesting

Swiftstrike4Oct 6, 20162 votes

After look at the stacking AD during his ultimate in fights, he may be better off with the resistances.

Often he doesn't survive long enough for the stacking AD to be too relevant. He will frequently get chain CC'D thus not inflict enough damage for it to stack and when he isn't CC'D it probably means he would win the fight anyways without the scaling AD.

I suppose the scaling AD is best for objectives like baron and dragon.

The AD is better in laning and for dueling, but I think the resistances will scale better and be more useful overall thus making it a "buff." I am excited about this change.

LuggOct 5, 20161 votes

I think that buff is fine, as long as they nerf his stacking rate. Right now Nasus stacks WAY too fast. Any decent Nasus can have 300 stacks at 15 minutes right now. That is simply way too high for a champ that has infinite scaling.

If they don't do something like that, Nasus will become pick/ban overnight. You have to have that balance of risk/reward. He needs to have a really weak early game since his late game is so massive.

Ravenous HowlsOct 5, 20161 votes

{quoted}

I think that buff is fine, as long as they nerf his stacking rate. Right now Nasus stacks WAY too fast. Any decent Nasus can have 300 stacks at 15 minutes right now. That is simply way too high for a champ that has infinite scaling.

If they don't do something like that, Nasus will become pick/ban overnight. You have to have that balance of risk/reward. He needs to have a really weak early game since his late game is so massive.

I don't get anywhere near that typically unless I get to counter pick or the enemy is a fool. At 15 minutes 150 maybe 200 stacks if you know what you are doing but vs a tough match up you are not getting 250-300 in 15 minutes but more like 120- 150...

LuggOct 5, 20161 votes

I rarely play Nasus and I can get 250 in 15 minutes. If I can do that, I know good Nasus players will have little problem getting there.

Ravenous HowlsOct 5, 20162 votes

{quoted}

I rarely play Nasus and I can get 250 in 15 minutes. If I can do that, I know good Nasus players will have little problem getting there.

Considering you have no games with him and are not ranked I can not take your argument with any credit. I main Nasus and got to Gold 4 this season playing him almost exclusively. I have a 56% win rate and 3.81:1 KDA with him.

I am doing basic calculation off the hip so my numbers might be slightly off but:

250 stacks at 15 min... You would have to have a no contest lane. There are approximately 107 minions that come in 10 minutes add 1 min 30 11:30 before the spawn time. Waves spawn every 3 min so another 6 or 7 = 114 for the sake of argument. If I did the math right that is 368 stacks in 15 min. If you did or did not miss a single siege minion and hit around 75-85 regular minion farm ALL with your Q to get those stacks. That means you have a successful freeze, enemy can't contest you and you don't teleport back to recharge....

So no that is not right a good Nasus will have between 120-150 stacks at 10-15 minutes and 275- 325 at 20 minutes. If you get the freeze and the enemy leaves you to farm and you never have to go back in 15 minutes you might be able to get around 300 stacks sure but this will never happen against a competent opponent.

LuggOct 5, 20161 votes

Here is a chart you can consult:

http://i.imgur.com/XM4VO8Z.png

Ravenous HowlsOct 6, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Here is a chart you can consult:

http://i.imgur.com/XM4VO8Z.png

I can make a chart and wave it around like it's gospel but it's still just words and numbers on paper. From experience what I told you before is pretty much the norm. You can argue all you like but until you play ranked or use the champion frequently you really don't have any merit to your argument. Not trying to be an ass but I have over 180 ranked games alone this season. Ask any Nasus main and I am sure they would corroborate my points.

LuggOct 7, 20161 votes

That isn't just a chart I made up. It's by a Nasus main who consulted other Nasus mains.

The point i'm trying to make is that Nasus is a late game hyper carry. He is supposed to have a weak early game to make up for his great late game. As it stands right now, he reaches late game status too early due to how easy it is to stack right now. The stacking will really need to be nerfed now that they buffed his ult.

Ravenous HowlsOct 7, 20161 votes

{quoted}

That isn't just a chart I made up. It's by a Nasus main who consulted other Nasus mains.

The point i'm trying to make is that Nasus is a late game hyper carry. He is supposed to have a weak early game to make up for his great late game. As it stands right now, he reaches late game status too early due to how easy it is to stack right now. The stacking will really need to be nerfed now that they buffed his ult.

I never said YOU made it, I just said I could make one up and say it's proof but it wouldn't be. That chart isn't proof and how old is it that chart? He doesn't stack that fast in the current meta. you are the only one here who seems to thinks so. In competitive elo gold and higher he never get's that high unless he gets an incompetent opponent or an extremely favorable match up that has no ability to make him base or keep him off minions. He is easily kited and destroyed late game and is basically a mid game champion with no hope to kill anyone late unless they are way out of position. He already struggles to stay relevant damage wise as he can't make use of Black Cleaver or any other armor pen items. And you want to nerf his power more? I am sorry but that is idiotic.

LuggOct 7, 20161 votes

Nasus is at a point where you should never blind pick him. There are some good counters to him at the moment. However, if you use him as a counterpick or in the right team comp, he can do very well.

Ravenous HowlsOct 7, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Nasus is at a point where you should never blind pick him. There are some good counters to him at the moment. However, if you use him as a counterpick or in the right team comp, he can do very well.

That is an opinion. I main Nasus almost exclusively and don't care who they pick. And saying that if you pick "X champion in X team comp" they can be good can apply to every champ in the game. Nasus does not have a safe early game or easy way to stack unless someone picks a pure tank into him and he can free farm with little chance of being stopped. This is the mage/Rylai's meta and this makes his already harsh early game even harder.

LuggOct 7, 20161 votes

If you can set up a freeze on your side of the lane, Nasus does have a pretty safe early game. He is a champ that is more than happy to farm under his tower.

Ravenous HowlsOct 7, 20161 votes

"IF" being the magic word there and there are plenty of champs who can damage or burst him under tower without taking turret aggro. Vlad, Swain, Quin, Tryn, Kayle, Teemo, Gnar, Karma, I could go on. I've faced all of these and they have pushed me out of lane and made my farming a living hell. Also some people will miss a whole wave and let you farm so you push it to them then they freeze it and keep it there for 2 or 3 waves ensuring you get starved.

Nasus is meant to freeze naturally b/c he can't trade early until after his first major defensive item and sheen. If he wasn't able to do this then he would never be able to win or challenge his opponent. Nasus is supposed to be a slow building threat that scales with farm.

He has more counters then nearly every other champion in the game and has to work harder to become relevant then nearly any other champion in the game who isn't Kassadin.

HateDaddyOct 5, 20163 votes