Balance...?

Niyumi··1 votes·581 views

Okay, so, this is kind of a rant, but also a long-winded question for Riot (or anyone else who wants to answer). Basically, I want to ask whether effort/reward is even a factor in League.

So, say someone is playing Ekko. He requires a bit of skill and knowledge of the kit to do full damage, and he can do a bit of damage if he can pull it off, but there's a lot of counterplay (just moving is one), and a lot of ways to just outright avoid his damage altogether. With a full build, you can kill nearly any squishy champ (<2.5kish HP and no MR) within a few seconds, assuming you can land your entire combo and your ult. Against a tank, you have to do the same combo over a few times while kiting them around, and then save your ult for the big finish. It takes a while, and it's hard to do since a lot of tanks build item 3742 and move a whole lot faster than you.

Next, say someone is playing Vayne, Draven, Ashe, Jinx, or any ADC really. They walk along and find someone, click on them, and walk away as they fall over dead half a second later. Aside from dodging into bushes (which only saves you for a quarter of a second), there is no way to counter the auto attacks that track you through everything. With one button press, they can annihilate anything, even tanks, within a matter of seconds. There is no effort required, and there is no counterplay to their attacks short of totally stunning them, which not every champ can do. Sure, you could build armor, but with items like item 3153 and item 3035, armor is irrelevant.

Now, say you had Garen being a target dummy. He has equal MR and equal armor, and say 4k HP. If you had Ekko and any ADC kill him as fast as they possibly could, the ADCs would win by a mile and a half, and they could kill two or three other Garens in the same time. Ekko is built for burst, he's an assassin, and that's what he does. ADCs are supposed to be the sustained damage that just tears through tanks like paper. Now, say you had Ekko and any ADC shoot a squishy, and try to burst them down faster. Even though Ekko is the assassin (who is SUPPOSED to be bursty), the ADC would still win because they would, quite literally, kill the squishy in 2-3 shots while Ekko has to go through his whole combo.

In what world is it fair that an entire class of champion can win by literally just clicking people to death, while 80% of the champ roster requires far more effort and mechanical skill?

Along the same lines, let's look at Annie. She has no skillshots minus her R (which is instant, so not hard to land), but she EASILY out-performs any other mage in the game through sheer damage. Azir, who has one of the hardest kits according to the community, can't even hope to stand up to her damage.

I just don't understand how the balance in this game works. Shouldn't champs who require much more effort/skill (Ekko, Azir) give a greater reward than champs who take next to no effort/skill (Annie, and ADC)? If no, why not? Shouldn't a higher risk equal a greater reward? Shouldn't more effort give a better payout? That only seems fair to me.

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TL;DR: Shouldn't champs who have a much harder, riskier kit have a better payout than say an ADC or someone like Annie or an AD bruiser who does nothing but click people to death? If no, why not?

17 Comments

disregardable1 votes

Ekko has a riskier kit than a completely immobile ADC that dies the second anyone on their team gets near her? Haha, funny.

Niyumi1 votes

Riskier as in it takes a whole lot more effort to do their damage potential, and you could potentially be attacked from behind or something since you have to pay a lot more attention to your abilities and mechanics rather than just clicking and going AFK.

disregardable1 votes

But you don't. Because if you did just hit your high range AOE skillshot Q and get attacked from behind, you have a dash, 2 blinks, a shield, one of the longest stuns in the game, and a redo heal.

You know what happens if you don't pay attention and get attacked from behind on an Jinx? You die.

Niyumi1 votes

You know what happens if you try to attack a Jinx from behind and you're anything but a full tank build tank champ? You just drop dead as soon as you get within auto range.

Don't just think of Ekko though, he was only an example of a mechanics-heavy champ. Let's use Azir, Zed or anything else like that -- all of them pale in comparison to clickers like an ADC, Annie, or just about any AD champ.

disregardable1 votes

Yeah, they all have multiple escape and positioning mechanisms and the ability to focus targets in multiple locations. Their ability to be countered does pale in comparison.

Posui Gart1 votes

ADCs/sustained damagers are good against tanks that are good against assassins that are good against ADCs/sustained damagers As for your examples: Ekko is a low-damage assassin, but he has tons of CC and survivability as well as mobility. Can ADC jump into 5 enemies, stun them and oneshot enemy mage/ADC and jump back to safety? Ekko can. Annie has some burst damage, but she loses to Azir in terms of sustained damage and range. And of course mobility. Without flash Annie can't land her combo on Azir, while he can poke her from afar and, if needed, escape with E or throw away enemies with R, while Annie will die. Just try to play ANY adc and you will see their weak points(lack of mobility, usually no burst, no survivability).

pripustas1 votes

lack of mobility, usually no burst, no survivability). Vayne Kalista item 3153 item 3072

yep, totally.

Posui Gart1 votes

Well, they have some mobility(but they have to hit something to jump more than once), but still no burst(they cant even crit for 1k like other ADCs because they build attackspeed) and no survivability(300 hp shield? really? when average 6-slotted mage can hit you for 800-900 damage with a single spell?)

pripustas1 votes

Really? Your argument is that they have to hit something to be mobile? Most champions have 1 gapcloser, right? So all you need is 2, and you're golden. Both of these champions have nearly unlimited movement skills. (2second cd on Vayne Q, as fast as you can with Kalista) Also I did not mean the shield (it helps tho) I meant lifesteal and slow+drain.

Posui Gart1 votes

Their dashes are short. And usually any assassin will kill any of them before they will dash second time(Talon) or will be able to chase them even with dashes(Akali). Same with lifesteal, even with 400 damage you will heal yourself for... 80 hp per attack, that will not help you against any burst damager.

pripustas1 votes

I play lots of Talon. And if you are not already fed to a point where E+AA+Q+R+R combo deletes them, you can't kill them (Vayne, Kalista)

Posui Gart1 votes

Well, usually you are fed to that point, as they will not buy any health even with farm. Also, shouldn't you include Hydra active? Also there are other assassins who can do same job(Diana, Rengar, Fizz, even Riven)

pripustas1 votes

Ye, forgot Hydra. You can't get fed if you lose your lane, get no help from jungler, and can't get kills while roaming early. And I feel like I always lose lane vs ranged champs, and get destroyed under turret.

Posui Gart1 votes

Well, I didn't play Talon, but based on my experience he counters squishy mages(like my main Xerath), he can at lvls 3-4 just jump after they waste some spells, followed by W,Q and AAs(maybe not in that order, but you got the idea), taking 30-50% hp off, and finishing later with another combo+ignite if they don't recall. He is not a passive farmer.

pripustas1 votes

Problem is a good opponent will poke you down every time you go for cs. And by the time you're lvl 3-4 you are already 50% hp with 0pots left. That, or don't get any cs. Also Xerath has one of the easiest skills to dodge at max range.

Niyumi1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Posui Gart,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=V2AUMtrX,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2015-08-23T09:32:09.441+0000)

ADCs/sustained damagers are good against tanks that are good against assassins that are good against ADCs/sustained damagers As for your examples: Ekko is a low-damage assassin, but he has tons of CC and survivability as well as mobility. Can ADC jump into 5 enemies, stun them and oneshot enemy mage/ADC and jump back to safety? Ekko can. Annie has some burst damage, but she loses to Azir in terms of sustained damage and range. And of course mobility. Without flash Annie can't land her combo on Azir, while he can poke her from afar and, if needed, escape with E or throw away enemies with R, while Annie will die. Just try to play ANY adc and you will see their weak points(lack of mobility, usually no burst, no survivability).

ADC champs are good against everything that can't CC lock them into infinity... which means unless your entire team is there, you will lose to an ADC. Tanks are good against everything that isn't an ADC. Assassins are ONLY good against champs that can't auto them down before they even have a chance of doing any damage.

Can Ekko jump into 5 enemies? Sure, but he'd immediately die. That AoE stun you talk about has a VERY readable animation, takes a whole FOUR seconds to arm, and requires him to jump inside of the very obvious circle telegraph + animation with all those people. Who's dumb enough to do that? The only thing Ekko can do is push R to get out of a bad situation every 45 seconds -- and even then, silences, roots, stuns, knockups, all that will prevent him from using it. Vayne can waltz into an entire team and proceed to click them all to death, and not have a scratch on her at the end. (I've had this happen to me in a game, and despite me attacking her, she killed me before I could even land my Jayce hammer Q, which I used at full health.)

Annie doesn't just have burst damage, she has a Q that does 800+ damage (and can't be dodged) on a 4 second CD, another spell that does just as much damage on a 6 second CD, and her ult that annihilates everything on a short CD as well. What does Azir have? Oh he can poke people that stand near his soldiers. Yeah, that's kind of easy to dodge, and his damage in comparison to Annie (based on effort to do said damage) is just abysmal. Sure, Azir can move a bit better, but Annie will still win the fight.

I have played ADCs, and they're very boring for me, because literally all you do is click people. Your abilities are just there to augment your clicking. And please, no mobility? Tristana, Vayne, Draven, Lucian, Kalista, Quinn, Sivir and Corki beg to differ. No burst? You call auto attacking for over 1k per shot, and doing that twice per second, not burst? What does qualify as burst then, if not 2k+ damage per SECOND? The only thing ADCs have as a weakness is that they're squishy and usually don't have any hard CC, but that doesn't matter since no one can even stand toe to toe with them and win.

pripustas1 votes

I love how assassins don't even have targets to 100-0 unless they're fed af anymore. item 3157 item 3040 item 3072 item 3153summoner 21 gives way too much survivability.

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