Has the game gotten to a point where balance is impossible?

only zhule··1 votes·1,259 views

So i was thinking about this earlier today. More specifically what seems to be the biggest issues in the game. I basically came up with the answer that the game has gotten too large for balance to really exist any longer. We have champions with insane kits that barely need items to function, and champions that are so item dependent that they basically fall apart at the seams if they can't abuse them. Take for example a champion like Kaisa , in a vacuum (no one gets items) this champion has all the tools to be oppressively strong built straight into her kit. Items means she can do her job better, but you don't need them to harness most of her power (yes i know the upgrades are big part of her power, but those could be changed slightly to trigger off other stuff like level / length of game / etc..). Then take for example a champion like Ezreal , you have a kit that is by no means impressive in a vacuum, but can abuse items like item 3004 / item 3025 / or any other on hit type of effect. There is also the issue with champions that end up strong without having to really work for it. The enemy Malphite who went 2/10/x by the 30 min mark will still likely have enough sustain to shrug off 2 non-carries going ham WHILE ALSO having enough damage to be able to kill a squishy champion.

There is also the question of a champions strength in different levels of skill. If a champion DOMINATES the competitive scene but is garbage for your average solo Q player, do they need to be nerfed? What about the opposite, a champion that is face roll easy to win with for the average player but 1000% useless once you get into high elo.

Items are also a huge issue. How do you properly balance an item that is broken on one champion and garbage on another? At what point do you nerf an item versus nerf the champion who abuses it? Is item 3504 broken because Sona can abuse it? Is Sona broken because she can trigger item 3504 on her whole team? Is item 3078 too strong because Ezreal and Gangplank can trigger it with a long range poke? Does Ezreal function as a champion if he can't trigger on hit effects with his poke? Would anyone buy item 3124 if it didn't have the double on-hit trigger passive? Is the item too powerful given the number of champions with very strong on-hit abilities as part of their kits, that would otherwise require a fair bit of set up to make use of. But the most important question is how do you really test the interaction of 150 items on 150 different champions, with the complexity of every champion using every item against every other champion? Now multiply that with 10 different champions all slamming into each other.

13 Comments

TheLegendaddy3 votes

Balance is impossible. That is why Riot will continue to metashift every patch and sell skins for who is strong and who is popular. That's the real game here.

Cowgirl Ed1 votes

Don't listen to other nerds, this is the real game ^^

Kai Guy2 votes

A cool vid on balance theory.

Issues with "balance" in a moba that I personaly see.

  1. All champions have same best case. E.A no champions power curve is over 10. This creates no reason to learn difficult champions, easy ones have a higher starting point and when mastered are just as strong as the difficult champions.

  2. You don't balance for equality, you do equity. Champion A is simple and thus has a lower best case power usage. Champion B is harder thus has better best case. Champion A is stronger in low elo, Champion B is stronger in high elo.

  3. Make the game about counter picks and champion to champion interaction Rock>Paper>Scissors>Rock. Blind pick will be RNG, Draft will be decided in lobby more frequently. Unlike Dota 2 which has some pretty brutal hard counters, In lol we know where champions go. 1 1 2 jungle. We have ideas about what champions we will see. Cant do this style very well in loll's current state. need to unlock lanes n jungle to roam to deal with hard counters.

only zhule1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kai Guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=UzZ9ZXmq,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-04-14T09:38:10.377+0000)

A cool vid on balance theory.

Issues with "balance" in a moba that I personaly see.

  1. All champions have same best case. E.A no champions power curve is over 10. This creates no reason to learn difficult champions, easy ones have a higher starting point and when mastered are just as strong as the difficult champions.

  2. You don't balance for equality, you do equity. Champion A is simple and thus has a lower best case power usage. Champion B is harder thus has better best case. Champion A is stronger in low elo, Champion B is stronger in high elo.

  3. Make the game about counter picks and champion to champion interaction Rock>Paper>Scissors>Rock. Blind pick will be RNG, Draft will be decided in lobby more frequently. Unlike Dota 2 which has some pretty brutal hard counters, In lol we know where champions go. 1 1 2 jungle. We have ideas about what champions we will see. Cant do this style very well in loll's current state. need to unlock lanes n jungle to roam to deal with hard counters.

With regard to the rock paper scissors thing. This is true to a degree. But it doesn't account for the team dynamic, 5 rocks losses to 5 papers but what about 3 rocks and 2 scissors versus 3 paper and 2 rocks? Also we have the problem where sometimes rock beats paper because rock got item A, and C while paper only got item X. If i can counter your counter pick by building certain items that don't heavily effect my ability to do my job, then is there really a point to counter pick?

Kai Guy1 votes

The mix does not really hold up when we have locked lanes, the team with the most counters is going to have the advantage. Now, If there was the ability to move rocks out of paper lanes then it is much more manageable. Having items be relevant to countering counters is a slightly different balance path then just flat RCP, but I mean... lets be real about how often the playerbase goes with a guide, streamer, or pro build like its a cookie cutter for every game. I still don't see folks grabbing item 3123 when vs a comp with Warwick Soraka DrMundo

To clarify this is not reflective of the current state of league, it was just listed as an example of what some want from balance decisions in lol.

only zhule1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kai Guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=UzZ9ZXmq,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2018-04-14T17:45:16.623+0000)

The mix does not really hold up when we have locked lanes, the team with the most counters is going to have the advantage. Now, If there was the ability to move rocks out of paper lanes then it is much more manageable. Having items be relevant to countering counters is a slightly different balance path then just flat RCP, but I mean... lets be real about how often the playerbase goes with a guide, streamer, or pro build like its a cookie cutter for every game. I still don't see folks grabbing item 3123 when vs a comp with Warwick Soraka DrMundo

To clarify this is not reflective of the current state of league, it was just listed as an example of what some want from balance decisions in lol.

Personally i would love to see Riot put off introducing new champions and just focus on "balancing" the current roster so we don't always see the same 15-20 champions in every LCS and the same 30-ish in every normal game. We have periods of time where some champions seem to go completely unplayed for months if not years at a time. Take Volibear for example, he has a really nice win rate when he is picked but is basically never seen. Same basic idea can be pointed to with other champions in other roles. Taric is an ok choice now, but there were YEARS where he was just this clunky outdated mess. The other side of this is of course those champions that never fall out of the spot light for more then 2 patches, without suddenly getting buffed or reworked to be an insane powerhouse.

Kai Guy1 votes

I think what is important is that all champions have a place to be viable, the issue I have is the player base treating the game the same way over all MMRs. Skill floors and ceilings basically. I don't want high ceiling champions to be unrewarding when played at a high level, it makes them a bad pick, and at lower levels they are also a bad pick because many players cant hit their mechanics.

Volibear is a good example of low floor low ceiling champion, he is pretty easy to pick up, thers not a lot of confusion in his kit. Press Q run at the guys, auto them and Bite when its up. You can improve mechanics, learning good pathys, when to activate Q, how to stack Bite in advanced, what time to use R, but at a certain point he falls off, theres just not enough expression of skill in his kit to reward players.

A lot of people just copy and paste, This was true in early seasons with mobafire builds, I feel it remains true with streamers and Proplay. Mobas are not a inherently player friendly game, there is a huge burden of knowledge on the players and the people with solid game knowledge are traditionally at a advantage vs those that don't.

I think LCS inherently will remain a pretty small champion selection, I just wish more players realized its not because those are the only good champions, just that many of those are the best champions for LCS MMR and the game at that level of play. I got a buddy who is a mid main, nice guy in RL but toxic AF ragey blames teammates bronze 3 in lol. He picked up Azir because he saw it dominate in lcs. He makes terrible plays and calls and is a huge handicap any time he is on azir. Basically I feel to many folks look at things on paper and do not properly account for their own skill or set realistic expectations on teammates skill.

S V 1 votes

Riot thrives off the chaos and buffs/nerfs they make each patch to make the game interesting and more alluring for new players to come. The only balance I see is when Riot's patch team watches popular high elo streams talk about champions and their predictions casually or the occasional ambitious development in PBE. Honestly though, I kinda liked seeing Rageblade on Jhin just because of how funny it is for well... Jhin... Rageblade. kek

only zhule1 votes

[{quoted}](name=S V ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=UzZ9ZXmq,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-04-14T09:24:58.154+0000)

Riot thrives off the chaos and buffs/nerfs they make each patch to make the game interesting and more alluring for new players to come. The only balance I see is when Riot's patch team watches popular high elo streams talk about champions and their predictions casually or the occasional ambitious development in PBE. Honestly though, I kinda liked seeing Rageblade on Jhin just because of how funny it is for well... Jhin... Rageblade. kek

I don't like rageblade, but a lot of that comes down to me not understanding how it actually works. Like the bonuses to AD,AP, and AS are those bonuses to what blade already has as default stats? Is it bonuses to your total AD/AP/AS (you see bigger buffs per stack at 300 AD then you would at 150 AD)? Does the double trigger of on-hit account for just items? Items and abilities? does it trigger on hit effects that otherwise wouldn't have been triggered? Like if i play Vayne does that mean every two autos = double triggers of my silver bolt effect? Does Kayle get free AOE on every other auto attack? Am i dealing with an item that if used correctly lets my opponent abuse their built in powerful on-hit effect, while also allowing them to do +400% base attack damage via item 3078 on every other attack?

BerylCrab1 votes

No, it has already been there for a long while now.

Silverjust1 votes

I don't think this is the big problem the game has ight now

only zhule1 votes

{quoted}

I don't think this is the big problem the game has ight now

What do you feel is "the big problem" with the game?

Silverjust1 votes

I think THE PROBLEM right now is that every game is a stomp, and it gets worse and worse with each patch

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