The biggest issue with Conqueror is its exclusivity

Moody P·Feb 27, 2019·19 votes·9,534 views

Too few bruisers get real use out of this especially in early trades due to low AS or being combo based with high cooldowns. You notice all the top tier fighters right now are the ones who can stack it quickly and get the most out of their AD ratios ASAP?

Conqueror is only good for a handful of fighters right now but those fighters basically have a permanent damage and sustain bonus over others because they can't use Conqueror efficiently or at all, and thus these fighters are just the best.. A good chunk of fighters are again left defaulting to inferior rune trees that they don't scale well with, and their performances suffer for it.

26 Comments

ParoeFeb 27, 20199 votes

snrk. You think conq. was added for non marksmen? Fighters can use it, but that whole tree is intended explicitly for marksmen now.

Chembaron YamadaFeb 27, 20194 votes

Ok, first I thought "nah, he made that up".

Now I looked at the keystones of alot of marksmen and wow... they all have conqueror as their highest winrate keystone. This stuff is busted.

ThefrostyvikingFeb 27, 20191 votes

Its not wonder really, its the only way to do any real damage to a truly beefy target pre 3-4 items when not playing vayne pretty much.

Other runes are better for bursting squshies but killing something tanky? Conq has nothing that is even remotely equal.

Well as much as i guess it will probably cause a mess somewhere down the line i will enjoy being able to play against alistar and aftershock users for now x)

SaiannaFeb 28, 20192 votes

I was saying that from the moment new conqueror showed up on PBE. And people kept on disagreeing.. Zzzz

BigFBearFeb 27, 20196 votes

Delete runes and keep stat shards aka old runes. Lol should just be items and stat shards (for early game individualization).

NaalithFeb 28, 20192 votes

Ehhhhh as someone who has been playing since season 1, runes/masteries/runes reforged have always been my least favorite aspect of the entire game. Even when runes were just stats, people minmaxed for their character then Riot nerfed the character so basically their "base statline" was including runes and if you tried to think outside the box you were playing suboptimally. Basically free to play players got stealth screwed over because you wouldn't think runes are as important as they are but level 1 they are disproportionately important and that snowballed people with full pages into a lead.

Certain masteries over the years, even before keystones, also dictated the meta to an extent. And like with runes, if masteries weren't wacky and noticeable they basically were just added to base stats and became boring.

I think runes reforged was interesting for a couple months, and there are some good ideas in there. Practically the whole Inspiration tree is super cool and quirky without being over the top OP, but as we know people don't care about Inspiration 99% of the time and all the damage and lane sustain stuff is what people spec into and now stuff like Electrocute, Fleet Footwork, Conqueror, etc. is just a base part of a champion's kit to the point where it's hardly distinguishable to see what choices people made, like before.

Basically what I'm saying is if literally all the scaling was done in game with levels and items, I personally think the game would be in a better place. There can be no assassin without a damage rune because their bases were knocked down to accommodate runes, there can be no tanks without Aftershock (usually) because damage creep from runes has essentially made a "normal" tank without insane surviveability on initiation nonexistant, and there can be no enchanters without one of the shield runes because their shields were annihilated last midseason.

TL;DR is that runes, after people optimize them, become a base part of a champion's stats and are no longer exciting or even really a choice as a result. Basically the only choices people have for runes are juggernauts deciding if they want Grasp or Conqueror, and certain mid mages choosing between damage or Glacial augment builds.

BigFBearFeb 28, 20191 votes

I fully agree with you.

Iota ThetaFeb 27, 20195 votes

They had the right idea, as the previous stack method enable immediate use when wanting to trade, but I think the execution flopped. Like, I think it was said Urgot can get it fully stacked with just W, but other spells that might have a multi-hit effect, depending on how it’s coded, only get one stack, like Garen’s E. If it’s coded in a way to prevent stacks for DoTs, Perhaps it’s something to look into the code for to see if improvements could be made? I don’t actually know how deep such an effort would run though.

Chembaron YamadaFeb 27, 20194 votes

Urgots W stacks it fast because his W makes him auto attack at 3.0 AS. W is not counted as a multi hit spell, each hit is a seperated auto attack and auto attacks count seperatedly for these stacks.

And it is better that it doesn't count DoTs. There are quite some champions which would absolutely break this rune if DoTs would count, like Singed for example.

Iota ThetaFeb 27, 20192 votes

{quoted}

Urgots W stacks it fast because his W makes him auto attack at 3.0 AS. W is not counted as a multi hit spell, each hit is a seperated auto attack and auto attacks count seperatedly for these stacks.

And it is better that it doesn't count DoTs. There are quite some champions which would absolutely break this rune if DoTs would count, like Singed for example.

Right. I guess looking at instances of a champ that should but can’t use it well, Garen can’t stack it all that fast in a trade, especially since E locks him in unless you end it early. I do agree that DoT would majorly break it, but I think maybe it’s worth looking into the Rune for the sake of those who should be able to use it, but can’t, like Garen and others.

TobykachuFeb 27, 20193 votes

It's the same as with Dark Harvest. They're both ridiculously overpowered and are supposedly 'balanced' by having super gimmicky activation conditions. It really shouldn't be THIS difficult for Riot to grasp that the some specific champions will find ways around the gimmicky requirement easier than most others and that these champions will completely break the rune.

Linna ExcelFeb 27, 20191 votes

Maybe riot should turn it into a glorified sheen effect. Whenever your abilities hit a champ for 3 seconds you get 12-24% AS and 8-24 adaptive damage (doesn't stack).

Princess BunheadFeb 27, 20191 votes

The fact that it's far better on AA reliant, mobile bruisers, and just very mediocre, or worse, on immobile juggernauts, just pisses me off.

Give me a powerful rune that maybe works of base AD (can do so for both AP and AD), and shuts off for 30 sec if you dash/jump, and I'm a happy camper. :P

Conqueror: For 5 seconds after hitting an enemy champion with an ability or autoattack, gain 3% of your base AD as (adaptable force) and 2% damage reduction, to a maximum of 10 stacks. Melee only. Abilities/Autoattack refreshes duration. Dash/jumps disables rune for 30 sec.

Numbers and actual mechanics pulled straight from the ass - so not final product, but you catch my drift. Anyways, no more abuse from hyper mobile tanky champions, or ranged - solely a juggernaut keystone.

IllabetheFeb 28, 20191 votes

I have to disagree. Bruisers have 8 seconds to get on to the next stack...... EIGHT SECONDS. You can literally keep it up permanently to help farm/harass right now in top lane, if you space out your farm/harass to refresh it every 5-6 seconds. Did you ever watch the video of the "Grasp of the Undying" rework, where a Jax or Wu Kong poked every 2-3 seconds to get a 99 + stack on Grasp? Grasp was only on basic attacks. Conquerer is on skills, and lasts twice as long.....

If you can play Garen, or Darius, or Irelia, etc, you can literally perma keep it up, simply by hitting harass, and massively boost farm success rates.

Exclusivity? I'll bite. But it's exclusiivity to ADs' as VIABLE that creates exclusivity, not subclasses of AD. It's STILL almost entirely useless to AP champs. It expires so fast it's even questionable on Cassiopeia now.

Moody PFeb 28, 20199 votes

Being able to keep it up is not as important as actually getting it out ASAP. Example would be Garen or Illaoi. Either of them can only get 3 stacks max with their rotation and then have to rely on their terrible AS to get the other 2. Riven or Yorick or Jax or Irelia will get all 5 stacks in the same span and thus have a huge advantage and will almost automatically win the fight. That's why the rune is mediocre. They just can't pop it when they NEED to pop it and they're set back hard by it.

IllabetheFeb 28, 20192 votes

Heavily disagree because it DOES help farm. A Nasus who can get it out and stable in lane can literally double the effective use of Siphoning Strike at last hitting. Garen and Illaoi have two facets; They can keep it up in lane while ALSO pulling it out fast away from a lane. But Illaoi already had a strong lane phase, so that is trivial. Garen potentially has a bad lane phase on the other hand. But.... now he can keep it up and boost his Spin and kill waves almost like Illaoi.

You really need to take into account how it affects PVE aspects of the game, more than how it comes out vs a champion. It's an indirect Klepto rune in how it works now for champs who are melee and can regularly poke.

Try Conquerer on a laning Udyr or Yi. Yi can translate that into a super safe perma charge simply through alpha striking, and the Alpha will be damage boosted, and does bonus damage to minions. He will be 1 shotting waves about 5 minutes before he normally would.

Illaoi can get 3 stacks in one rotation, but she is the BEST user when her ult is up, and her rotation only takes 4-2 seconds, so it's hardly restricted by her kit as a melee. Her ult can instantly 5 proc it as well. And Test of Spirit counts towards proccing it, and she will get 2-3 stacks every time she W's. There's a reason it's now beating Klepto as her best rune.

Moody PFeb 28, 20193 votes

General consensus from high ELO Illaoi's is that the rune is not fantastic. I've talked to DirtyMobs who is a Challenger NA otp and he told me he doesn't like it.

I would actually like if they changed how it works. Currently its bugged or something and tentacles will not stack hits if you have used W recently. But they DO stack if they swing from an E when you're no longer in combat. Its very gimmicky and unreliable and it generally just annoys me but Precision is such a strong tree on her that I usually take Conqueror anyway.

I also don't think she should be able to stack off the spirit because it's kind of a dumb interaction. But that's just me. Id rather have tentacles give me stacks than the spirit.

Sorry, This post was kind of a tangent

TimeToDieSuckersFeb 28, 20192 votes

{quoted}

Heavily disagree because it DOES help farm. A Nasus who can get it out and stable in lane can literally double the effective use of Siphoning Strike at last hitting. Garen and Illaoi have two facets; They can keep it up in lane while ALSO pulling it out fast away from a lane. But Illaoi already had a strong lane phase, so that is trivial. Garen potentially has a bad lane phase on the other hand. But.... now he can keep it up and boost his Spin and kill waves almost like Illaoi.

You really need to take into account how it affects PVE aspects of the game, more than how it comes out vs a champion. It's an indirect Klepto rune in how it works now for champs who are melee and can regularly poke.

Try Conquerer on a laning Udyr or Yi. Yi can translate that into a super safe perma charge simply through alpha striking, and the Alpha will be damage boosted, and does bonus damage to minions. He will be 1 shotting waves about 5 minutes before he normally would.

Illaoi can get 3 stacks in one rotation, but she is the BEST user when her ult is up, and her rotation only takes 4-2 seconds, so it's hardly restricted by her kit as a melee. Her ult can instantly 5 proc it as well. And Test of Spirit counts towards proccing it, and she will get 2-3 stacks every time she W's. There's a reason it's now beating Klepto as her best rune.

Not every opponent is gonna afk and let you keep conqueror stacked. Not every champion has long range poke, top lane is the land of the melee's. If they walk up to hit you, well beat them down if you stack conq faster you usually win. If you spam E on nasus to keep it stacked you might end up pushing the wave and ooming yourself, not sure if its worth it.

Regardless there are too many fighters in the game just keep conq for divers and release something else for juggernauts is probably best.

IllabetheFeb 28, 20191 votes

Top is almost never just "afk let you poke." 90% of games are literally 2 melee champions trying to CS, which puts them in rotations within 300-200 range of each other, especially once a wave hits a siege minion, which generally move to the front of the wave after their waves are destroyed, but are necessary to win.

You can't avoid skirmishes in a Garen vs Darius lane. You can't avoid skirmishes in a Riven vs anything lane. You can't avoid skirmishes in a Yorick lane. You can't avoid skirmishes in a Wu Kong lane.

The only exchanges in top lane where you are right: Adc vs melee lane. Or Teemo. In those lanes, skirmishes are not reliable.

TimeToDieSuckersFeb 28, 20191 votes

Neither garen or darius stack conqueror fast, so the scenario doesn't really apply here. Regardless darius should just kill a garen that walks up to hit him constantly.

Riven stacks conqueror fast. She often dictates when trades happen with her mobility, and will just wait out her cooldowns before trading again, your conqueror has now worn off.

Yorick's still pretty good with conqueror.

I rarely see wukong, and he never goes conqueror so I can't say.

The post is about champions that can't stack conqueror fast and get less out of trades. You can't always just walk up and hit them every 8 seconds even in melee vs melee. You lose initial trade due to both having 0 conqueror stacks and he stacks faster. Enemy now has push advantage (more minions higher xp e.t.c).

Even in melee matchups often 1 or 2 melee minions will walk past to the ranged minions. In order to hit him you now have to walk through his minions and take minion aggro to keep your conqueror stacked. He trades back you lose due to minion advantage. There are some scenarios you can keep conqueror stacked, though it will usually have to be a winning matchup anyways.

The 5 hit gimmick probably would've been better if it was just a ramp up based on X seconds it combat, gaining more of the stats each second or what not. (Assuming the rune is supposed to be for long trades or all ins)

IllabetheMar 1, 20191 votes

Why is it so difficult to get this through your head? These champions only have to hit ONE skill/attack within each 8 seconds to keep it up. They do NOT have to KEEP fighting. 8 Seconds is a LONG time in league, and these champions can keep Grasp of the Undying up, which is 4 seconds, and only auto attacks.

TimeToDieSuckersMar 1, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Why is it so difficult to get this through your head? These champions only have to hit ONE skill/attack within each 8 seconds to keep it up. They do NOT have to KEEP fighting. 8 Seconds is a LONG time in league, and these champions can keep Grasp of the Undying up, which is 4 seconds, and only auto attacks.

When you walk up with 0 stacks and I stack faster I'll simply all in every time you overextend to keep it stacked. Every initial trade you lose thus I'll already have the health advantage.

Do you even know how grasp works??? It stacks on minions...conqueror does not.

IllabetheMar 1, 20191 votes

If you are a champion that quickly overstacks, you aren't a champ who can maintain it. If you are a champion who can maintain it, with the exception of Illaoi, you cannot proc it quickly. And again..... this is about the PVE advantage, NOT the champ vs champ advantage.

And yes. I know how Grasp works. But it only works on Auto attacks. Skill + Auto is far easier to maintain than minion autos in most occasions, especially with double duration. Most of these melees have to break their grasp cycle due to poke/harass. They do NOT have to break their Conquerer Cycle.

TimeToDieSuckersMar 1, 20191 votes

Many champions can proc and maintain it well, just proccing it first is a huge boon. (jax, riven e.t.c) low cooldowns are king for stacking.

I don't see how the PVE advantage really matters, you don't get the healing or the true damage on minions. At max stacks its only 6-18 AD based on level. Helps a little bit with csing but its not that big.

SaiannaFeb 28, 20193 votes

Example would be Garen or Illaoi. Either of them can only get 3 stacks max with their rotation and then have to rely on their terrible AS to get the other 2.

Also the fact they use their abilities to get the stacks works against them, as once they 'activate' conqueror, they will have to either use just AAs or wait awkwardly for abilities to come off CD.

Imo this conqueror was made for fighters and ADC in mind. Whatever "this is for bruisers" idea there might have been in the past has been removed, or rather replaced.