Let’s look at why tanks are currently not of high value

HateDaddy··60 votes·17,529 views

There’s been a lot of chatter recently about tanks being in the dumpster. While nothing makes me happier, I also admit I do not like an entire class overall being garbage: it is not good for the game. As it stands, there are really only two tanks that are doing well:

Sejuani and Nunu

please note, i am not including support tanks because they’re the only class left that is valued for their actual utility, i am overall referring to jungle and solo lane tanks.

There have been a lot of suggestions as to why tanks aren’t currently good, some of it is true and some of it is downright false. However, it is important to understand that it is a combination of things and not simply one thing. Let’s go over them:

Defensive items are stale, unintuitive, and underwhelming.

This is true. As it stands, completing a big ticket defensive item doesn’t really do a lot for you currently. You get things like Bramble Vest and Bamis Cinder and you sit on them: there is no incentive to finish them. Items with passives or actives like Frozen Heart, Randuins and Deadman’s Plate aren’t usually good items to rush because they provide very little lane power. Yet, they are cheap and largely function well only in early-mid game based on their stats - their passives are decent all game, but in the end for all of these items you’re paying 2600+ gold for passives and actives late games because the armor ends up feeling underwhelming.

In short, defensive items don’t scale well: they generally scale until someone else buys %pen which puts them even further in the dirt. Usually after your first two defensive items, you’ve reached your peak and you slowly begin to decline. Yes, you will be harder to kill late game but that barely matters for reasons I’ll be providing below.

CDR is easily accessible, champions have access to CC galore, and defensive steroids have not been adjusted to the faster paced games and higher damage output

These things all kind of tie in together save for poor defensive steroids scaling. However, the two big offenders here are CDR being easily acquired and non-tank champions having unfettered access to CC (in particular mages, but this isn’t just a mage problem). In just a few words, I can sum this up: why do we need tanks when we’ve already go their jobs outsourced collectively by other classes? Mages, Bruisers, Hell even some Assassins and ADCs, all have CC, engage, self-peel, disengage and general disruptiveness. This was at one time a hallmark feature of tanks, now not so much. And when you consider everything is reaching 40% CDR across the board, there’s really no reason to need tanks (CDR used to be a TANK stat; mages had to struggle to acquire it because cooldowns were their intended weakness).

This ties into the last problem: inmate defensive spells are not adjusted for the fast pace game. While many defensive steroids for tanks are still good, they come with strings attached or are simply lack luster. In most cases, you’re maxing these things last on champions as one point wonders - Leona is the only champion that comes to mind as someone who maxes their steroid first. That’s great, but the problem is that these spells really don’t end up scaling well. By the time you’ve maxed them out, you’ve reached a point in the game where penetration and shred is reducing it significantly. So they end up being these really weird spells that are good but really only in early phases of the game or in the case of snowballing. Truthfully, I don’t know what the answer is here: innate defense is good and you don’t really want to buff it too much. It’s just something I notice when I play champions with steroids or access to spells that proc Aftershock: you usually max these things last when in reality you need them the most.

Damage is too high - even for tanks. And that’s a problem.

Access to damage is just too damn prevalent. Early damage items are far more useful than early tank items and components because early components and items are amplified by an array of offensive runes while defense only has two real runes: aftershock and bone-plating. The rest of the defensive tree is massive underwhelming for actual defense. This means that defense is just an afterthought and while it is nice that you can be chunky, you are not valued for it. As such, tanks are really only valued for their ability to damage. If you can’t solo an ADC in one combo, you’re virtually useless. If you can’t engage on 5 people at once (a la Sej), you’re useless. Even that isn’t great because if it mattered so much, Malphite would be pick/ban.

What matters is how easily you can gib squishies and if you can’t do it then you aren’t viable. But this created a super unhealthy game style. Contrary to popular beliefs most people hate tank metas of season 6 and thereafter - nobody likes Poppy, Sion, Sej, Maokai or Nautilus practically gibbing your ADCs while being unkillable. Season 5 and season 4 had a few healthy stints of tank metas but then riot gutted runes and masteries and introduced keystones, which is responsible for pretty much all of the problems today. As such, the game is so focused on damage that tanks don’t have a place unless they’re so overturned that they can make up for the fact that other people do their jobs better, their items suck, their damage still lacks in general compared to other classes (as it should but when that’s what males you viable, it makes a worlds difference), and their defense isn’t highly valued.

People will point out that tanks need damage and I don’t disagree. They need to be able to lane and clear jungles, but they also need to have reasonable damage. That is hard to do when that is what makes you valuable. It has to be overturned for tanks to be good. And riot insists that nobody wants to play tanks in solo Q and that they constantly underperform when they don’t have the capacity to carry. My response? Yes, and? They’re supposed to be low risk, low reward. They are the epitome of safe. With that comes the inability to be the shining star on a team gleaming with top tier stats. In exchange, you get to pick a champion that you probably won’t feed on either. So you won’t carry, but you won’t be the reason your team loses either. Frankly, such a dynamic would be lovely in top lane. I would love to FP something that wasn’t disgustingly overpowered in order to be safe.

So in summation, tanks don’t have access to doing their jobs anymore. Other classes do it better and their items suck, as do their keystones. Moreover, their defensive steroids have rather wonky scaling that makes these spells pretty underwhelming if you max them first (obviously there are some exceptions). The game just doesn’t have a place for tanks to be good while being in a healthy state. The next time we see a tank meta, it’ll be similar to season 6 and 7 tank metas where tanks are gibbing everything while ignoring your team rather than tanks that prolong fights and create interactive back and forth gameplay.

82 Comments

D357R0Y3R19 votes

When most adcs don't build %armor penetration anymore, I think this is a synonym of an issue in the game right now

tankiness has become garbage the only way to tank, is by building sterak (insane shield) death dance or similar items

it's stupid

Pierce The Veal3 votes

The issue is quadratic damage scaling on carries while tanks items have diminishing returns. Add on the fact that some of the best tank items and passives are on carry or damage items and we have a problem.

Plus the reason for adc’s not building armor pen feels cyclic. The sheer threat of someone negating your entire build with armor pen prevents people from buying armor or going champions that rely on armor, leading to more HP stacking juggernauts, which crit, ad, and attack speed kills a lot faster than armor pen does. Not to mention sterak’s actually being the best hp/tank item because it counters botrk by giving you a huge shield while you are low hp, minimizing the damage dealt by the percentage current health damage.

LordGeovanni2 votes

I remember saying tank items have diminishing returns in season 4 5 and 6 and watched as my comments get 25 downvotes and 2 comments saying no they dont then i show that each tank stat point gives less defensive value than previous tank stat points and they give me an over all show of how armor and magic resist over all is a % value when added all together.

Pierce The Veal2 votes

People were and continue to be dumb about it. They just do not understand basic math.

AP has a few multipliers: rab cap, cdr (sorta lol), liandries damage amp, easily accessible flat magic pen. If you multiple them all they’re pretty strong.

But with adc’s is where it gets dumb. You have a crit multiplier multiplied by attack speed multiplied by attack damage. For on hits it’s the sum of on hits time the attack speed multiplied and amped by guinsoo’s. Oh wait, there’s also conqueror, lethal tempo and press the attack further amping the damage.

With tanks, they have to itemize for three tank stats, of which two don’t benefit the opposite end of the spectrum. There’s only one total chained multiplier going on here, armor to hp and mr to hp. Making it so damage quadratically outscales tankiness while tanks cannot even maximize their resistances against a certain damage type for fear of mixed damage.

SoimuJr3 votes

No, ad carries don't build armor pen because we never play against tanks in soloq. At best, in rare cases, there's a Nautilius support, or a Sejuani jungle, but you're not going to get armor pen to kill a single tankier champion a bit faster, you're going to get a defensive item to not get so easily oneshotted by the enemy Talon , Katarina or Eve.

We basically skip armor pen because we never meet any tanks, and because we need to get def stats since there's so much dmg in the game compared to before.

Pierce The Veal1 votes

Well the thing is there are no tanks for 2 reasons. Adc’s damage far outscales their tankines, and building one item on your adc negates half of their build in terms of armor stats. There is no incentive to build much armor because anything besides randuin’s crit reduction and ninja tabi auto damage reduction will be largely penetrated.

Essentially adc’s wreck tanks so hard that there’s not even a reason to run a tank for the most part.

MalignMetal8 votes

Everyone overlooks how much extra attack speed Runes reforged added to the game. It needs a nerf frankly.

Thefrostyviking1 votes

{quoted}

Everyone overlooks how much extra attack speed Runes reforged added to the game. It needs a nerf frankly.

How much attackspeed? You have like 10% from the....small runes? Then 18% if from Precision legend :alacrity and possibly more from lethal tempo if you run that.

So if not running lethal tempo you can start the game with an extra 13% attackspeed that later on grows to 28% once alacrity is stacked, a lot later.

But you know? Riot removed attackspeed from some items like item 3046 too, 15%.

So overall how has attackspeed really risen to be a problem?

#Edit

It used to be possible to start the game with 20-30% extra attackspeed (matter of preference) instantly, even more if you used the usually sub optimal runes for it.

Compared to 30% i dont see how starting the game with 13% is a problem at all.

#End of edit

MalignMetal3 votes

Its part of the issue of overall damage Just like CDR its part of the issue why Armour is a useless stat.

The amount of extra attack speed the majority of people used to get at lvl 1 was Zero. Now its a delayed 28%

1% crit runes played a role but. You cant look at that and not see the dramatic change.

Thefrostyviking2 votes

{quoted}

Its part of the issue of overall damage Just like CDR its part of the issue why Armour is a useless stat.

The amount of extra attack speed the majority of people used to get at lvl 1 was Zero. Now its a delayed 28%

1% crit runes played a role but. You cant look at that and not see the dramatic change.

0%? Just how far back are you actually looking?

Back when we still had the rune page and mastery pages separated it was still extremely common to run attackspeed on both marksmen and several others like Jax/shyvana/xin zhao etc.

If memory severs it was possible to start with as 30% bonus attackspeed instantly and very easily too, all you did was use 9 attackspeed marks and 3 attackspeed quints, although most only used about 20% attackspeed and some AD instead.

But for some oddballs like Shyvana and Xin zhao it was actually viable to just drop everything into attackspeed, even use some glyph and seal slots for it and hit as much as 35% attackspeed.

Right at the start of the game, and those who didnt do it usually ran AD instead which i might add, could be stacked to start a lot higher than now then too.

Now you tell me, is starting with 13% such a big issue?

Now to be honest, from my perspective it looks like you have a serious case of multilayered rose tinted glasses, and it aint fashionable at all.

Ralanr5 votes

Probably an unpopular opinion and somewhat biased, but I don't mind it when tanks can hurt or kill ADCs, unless of course they're killing them as fast as an assassin.

To me, ADCs being glass cannons means even the weakest damage numbers can hurt them. This is what encourages them to buy sustain items like item 3080 and have them kite their enemies. If an ADC can just stand in a tank's face and auto them to death without any sustain while a tank is fighting them, then I'd argue that's toxic.

Thankfully, we are not in that meta currently.

Honestly, I think Riot needs to tone down the runes that reward offensive play with aggressive power and provide more ability to gain defensive power through play. Aftershock and Grasp, despite everyone hating them, do provide a decent defensive (and aggressive power based on defensive stats) for aggressive play. I don't think we need more of those, but I think we could use less "Triumphs" and "Hunter runes" which keep bestowing aggressive stats that benefit everyone that isn't a tank exceedingly well.

Hell, we could also just flat out reduce the amount of CDR in the game. I personally don't think item 3812 needs CDR, or item 3030 and item 3152. You can compensate with boosting their other stats if need be, but a reduction of CDR from offensive items could help.

HateDaddy2 votes

{quoted}

Probably an unpopular opinion and somewhat biased, but I don't mind it when tanks can hurt or kill ADCs, unless of course they're killing them as fast as an assassin.

To me, ADCs being glass cannons means even the weakest damage numbers can hurt them. This is what encourages them to buy sustain items like item 3080 and have them kite their enemies. If an ADC can just stand in a tank's face and auto them to death without any sustain while a tank is fighting them, then I'd argue that's toxic.

Thankfully, we are not in that meta currently.

Honestly, I think Riot needs to tone down the runes that reward offensive play with aggressive power and provide more ability to gain defensive power through play. Aftershock and Grasp, despite everyone hating them, do provide a decent defensive (and aggressive power based on defensive stats) for aggressive play. I don't think we need more of those, but I think we could use less "Triumphs" and "Hunter runes" which keep bestowing aggressive stats that benefit everyone that isn't a tank exceedingly well.

Hell, we could also just flat out reduce the amount of CDR in the game. I personally don't think item 3812 needs CDR, or item 3030 and item 3152. You can compensate with boosting their other stats if need be, but a reduction of CDR from offensive items could help.

I don’t think you’re wrong - tanks need to have some damage so you can’t just load up on tenacity and CC cleanse items/summoners and outright ignore them. Moreover, as we both mentioned it’s is important for lane presence and jungle clearing. To be honest, when you look the the numbers most tank damage numbers are not out of line. What is happening is grasp does a ton of damage, mana costs are basically non-existent so they can easily outlast champions, and CDR is easy to pick up. Thing is, tanks are not great at abusing these things currently. And thus, they are not good.

So what happens? We need them to be so overtuned that they can abuse these things and that’s when they do too much damage. And that is what creates this really unhealthy playstyle of tanks that walk through your team, kill your ADC in one combo and walk out with 40% of their HP still. It removes all gameplay until you get to really late game where tanks fall off.

So no, they don’t really need to be buffed. Truthfully, tanks are actually probably really balanced right now. Everything else is just obnoxiously overpowered and needs toned down. They can start with keystones.

Starcraft243ver5 votes

Maokai, Orm, Ivern, Tahm Kench, Shen, Rammus, Amumu are doing fine in terms of winrates.

Tahm and rammus were even way overpowered recently.

So I dont understand what you are talking about.

I think it's more about percieved value of tanks rather than actual value. You fed kaz will OS 3 squishies in a teamfight and you'll be like 'omg he hard carried'.

Your tank making a perfect ult, blocking the cc and locking the threat so your kaz can freely assasinate everyone on the ennemy team was still absolutely necessary for the former to happen.

huhndog2 votes

{quoted}

Maokai, Orm, Ivern, Tahm Kench, Shen, Rammus, Amumu are doing fine in terms of winrates.

Tahm and rammus were even way overpowered recently.

So I dont understand what you are talking about.

I think it's more about percieved value of tanks rather than actual value. You fed kaz will OS 3 squishies in a teamfight and you'll be like 'omg he hard carried'.

Your tank making a perfect ult, blocking the cc and locking the threat so your kaz can freely assasinate everyone on the ennemy team was still absolutely necessary for the former to happen.

  1. Ivern and Shen are not tanks
  2. Orn and Mao only have ok win rates because they are only played by mains with the pick rates 3.8% and 0.74% respectively
  3. Amumu is built ap now
  4. Rammus is meant to counter heavy ad teams (very efficient with ad assassins being in the mid meta). similar to how kassadin is with ap
  5. Tahm is pretty op and can't really defend him
Durzaka3 votes

3.8% pick rate is definitely not mains only. That is a pretty reasonable pick rate (especially once you ignore massive outliers like Ez, Lee, and kai'sa). 0.74% is definitely mains only pick rate.

HateDaddy3 votes

{quoted}

3.8% pick rate is definitely not mains only. That is a pretty reasonable pick rate (especially once you ignore massive outliers like Ez, Lee, and kai'sa). 0.74% is definitely mains only pick rate.

3.8 is much closer to a pickrate of Mains than it would be a popular pick.

Durzaka2 votes

Just because its closer doesnt make it the same.

Sure, it isnt a 25%+ pick rate. But actual champions who only have mains playing them sit at barely 0.75% Which is 3.8 is 5 times the pick rate of.

Ralanr2 votes

Shen is a tank.

Bugog4 votes

It seems like there's a lot of issues with tanks, and it's not just a single thing. It was built up over time.

Over time things have been sprinkled in that undercut tanks. True damage %health damage More sources of lifesteal (and/or spellvamp, etc) Some form of early access crit spiking Offensive rune synergies/lack of defensive rune synergies Offensive items tend to have better tuned build paths (2 offensive items have better synergy than 2 defensive items), and overall better synergies with most champion kits.

I don't think it's any one of these specifically, but over time they've released new items, new champs, reworked old champs, and reworked old items. The damage from each change or addition is small, but collectively it adds up.

DragonShea4 votes

Ok, then from a juggernauts perspective you have to look at how they've become successful in this meta despite the lack of strong tank items and more mobile melees dominating the game. Even though they are supposed to be as durable as Tanks and hit as hard as ADC's, many are now building 2-3 bruiser items when in the past, you should only get 2 max. One reason for this is because many of the strong juggs atm. Mordekaiser Illaoi Darius Urgot have game breaking abilities and have sustain or defensive abilities that rewards them for going into fight and tearing shit up. They also build HP as well so they have the advantage of at least surviving a little longer than most to deal some damage to their target.

In short, Juggs are now tankier than tanks themselves because they have better defensive abilities or sustain to keep them alive while Tanks despite building resistances are still getting killed because those resistances don't offer any real protection and durability towards things such as conqueror, overall High physical damage to the point that ADC's no longer build Armor pen to kill them.

FlameHalbrdOkido1 votes

I like this comment a lot it think it really gets 2 the core of the issue. Juggernauts are actively and dynamically tanky. Thier effective tankiness is dependent on thier own actions they have options/control/autonomy over how successful they are at thier ability to tank dmg/survive on the other hand, most tanks are incredibly passive in thier tankiness. They just build stats and then they lose the stat check fights bc thier tankiness isnt connected to skill/decisions/circumstance/teamwork and thus cannot adapt, rather its static and hits a ceiling hard. It feels bad 2 play tanks rn as opposed 2 Juggers bc no matter what u do u die in ways you don't have control over, tanks should feel unkillable when they build tanky and make good decisions, but they can't. I'd like to continue this discussion I hope I'm conveying my thoughts alright

Ralanr1 votes

Tanks that have active defenses (Shields for example) actually do have durability that can be helped by their own actions. So it's not like all tanks are passive defense.

FlameHalbrdOkido1 votes

Thanks for reminding I was going 2 point out that some tanks have active defenses, and that can help their agency a bit, but not as much as much bc its temporary once its used up it doesn't help much with increasing thier tankiness any more, Tahms E tho is probably the best example since it scales with dmg taken and his health, and it can be a heal by disengaging so it really gets stronger as the game progresses and he gets focused then they essentially gotta kill him 2x it makes him feel unkillable. Other tanks not so much, unlike juggers thier "buffed" tankiness isnt passive based on actions taken etc. and it hits a cap hard, so they feel more tanky bc under the right circumstances thier tankiness is on all the time. This is why most of the time tanks a passively defensive bc once their ONE tank ability is on CD they can only rely on stats as opposed to juggers constant passive tank ability proccing every time that they do X.

WalkingInACircle3 votes

None of those things are a problem. It's entirely laning phase based. Jungle tanks like Seju work because jungle.

Meddler decided bruisers didn't beat tanks hard enough in lane, added conqueror, and removed them from toplane.

HateDaddy16 votes

{quoted}

None of those things are a problem. It's entirely laning phase based. Jungle tanks like Seju work because jungle.

Meddler decided bruisers didn't beat tanks hard enough in lane, added conqueror, and removed them from toplane.

Prior to Conquerer, bruisers were being demolished in lane by tanks - and everything else you said is overly simplistic and inaccurate.

WalkingInACircle2 votes

Maybe you were, but anyone who could build black cleaver could beat tanks in lane long before conqueror. However BC didn't stop tanks from getting early cs.

HateDaddy12 votes

{quoted}

Maybe you were, but anyone who could build black cleaver could beat tanks in lane long before conqueror. However BC didn't stop tanks from getting early cs.

lmfao

You’re acting like bruisers just got BC for free. Yeah good luck when Sion, Poppy, Nautilus, Maokai, Ornn, etc were beating your ass into the ground from level 1. By the time a bruiser completed BC, the tank already had 3 items and a significant leve advantage and were walking all over the bruisers team while the bruiser tried to farm to catch up.

LordGeovanni1 votes

Sion and poppy are Juggernauts Like darius and Garen. Maokai level 1 avoid the buses for e if its q you walking into that. Orrn poorly balanced numbers because of knee jerk reacting on release (he needed buffs but making his kit smoother was the best way to buff him then Letting one of his scaling go through multiple skills would have been the second best way to buff him His problem was that even if he won early game he would auto lose when he started leveling his second skill)

Ralanr3 votes

No. Sion and Poppy are not juggernauts. They have too much CC and have strong defensive steroids, something juggernauts are known to utterly lack.

LordGeovanni1 votes

Like the Lack of pull and the healing which is a strong defensive steroid that darius lacks the lack of CC on skarner and the Defensive sheild steroid All of them were reworked around the same time for the same type of gameplay. Garen has a scilence not immobilizing but still cc and healing and his for defensive steroids. Only juggernaut that didnt have cc was Mordekaiser. Juggernauts were characterised by a struggle to engage and low ranged damage not a lack of cc and defensive steroids But you guys like to pick out certain parts to for certain posts and certain other parts for other posts to varying degrees of truth.

"When you think brute force, these champions should come to mind: powerful, durable, immobile and melee."

Ralanr: just take out durable and add in no cc then we good.

Ralanr1 votes

Except the juggernauts you mentioned have 1 hard CC at most whereas Sion and Poppy have 2-3 hard CC abilities.

This is what I meant by more CC. Soft CC isn’t a big factor in determining tanks, hard CC is, especially if it’s AoE.

The only exceptions to this rule I’ve found in tanks is Shen and Taric. Shen’s dodge field gives him utility and Taric has a boatload of Support power.

Poppy and Sion are not juggernauts. Please do not think they are to be balanced as such.

SithesisLord2 votes

bruisers were being demolished in lane by tanks

They were because 1100g for MR boots that gut tank damage and CC was too much of a dent on the core build of the most broken class in the game, apparently.

Ralanr1 votes

MR? Tabi was the item that was really good into Bruisers.

SithesisLord2 votes

I meant Bruisers into Tanks, before Conqueror.

As most tanks have only base damage, they're hit the hardest by the slightest of MR purchases.

TheSingularity3 votes

In addition to the items, Tanks have lost around 1500 HP, 80 armor and 50 MR through item nerfs over the years

The Kombinator3 votes

In short.

Armor, and magic res. are no longer relevant above a quite low value.

I could build Soraka into pure tank, and she dies in like 2 seconds. I do the same for Rammus, and he dies in 4. I build a single Zhonya for Fizz, and he survives for 7 seconds.

Above like 200 armor it's no longer matter. Health, self heals, shield, % damage reduction, invulnerability, stealth, and heavy CC can make you survive. Aatrox can survive 10 times more with a single tank item, than rammus. Why? Because Rammus get tons of armor, and health, but Aatrox has life steal which gives more health, than Rammus has in overall. Similar goes fo Mordekaiser. One tank item, and the rest goes for AP, and he outheal, and shield a lot of damage. Draven after bloodthirster pretty much unpokable. That one item is enough to heal infinite poke, if there are minions around, or monsters, or enemy champions.

My solution would be reworking the armor, and mr scaling. Linear scaling up to X value, and the cap is 99,9% reduction. The exact value could be up to debate, but i think 400 would be enough. This would cause 2 things.

  1. Not building any defense would leave you squishy as hell. DPS champs could destroy others real fast. Also would increase assassins' ability to oneshot squishy champs drastically.
  2. Pure AD, or pure AP could be seriously punished by a tank focusing it's defense. 99,9% reduction would be extremely painful.
FlameHalbrdOkido1 votes

A tank item that increased dmg/physical/ magic reduction to 90% via some scaling method periodically, or as a period passive after some conditions are met might be gud.

The Kombinator1 votes

90% is not enough. I reached that with Rammus, and 5 AD champ killed me in like 2 seconds. Also not one item. My point is the ability to stack it up. A pure armor guy should pretty much ignore all physical damage. Same with MR, but reaching MR, and armor cap would be impossible due to the limited number of items you can carry.

Also with my scaling method damage champs couldn't survive good as tanks no matter how much lifesteal, or damage stat they buy. Aatrox couldn't 5v1 anymore as a glass cannon.

FlameHalbrdOkido1 votes

U probably should die if u take focus fire from 5 champs all at once, as long as u take out one urself if u played ur cards right. Pure defense should FEEL unkillable if u play ur cards right, but it wouldn't be fair if u survived a 5v1 encounter that takes it 2 far, agreed tanks should always outshine other classes for survivability. The issue is rn tanks don't have the same amount of control over their tankiness like juggers. Tanks rely on usually one temp defensive ability that once used is gone, and then only crappy Stats. Juggers tankiness is usually semi passive and thier actions can make it stronger, we need tanks 2 be like that but better.

LordGeovanni3 votes

The problems are largely Squishy champion mains crying that they dont instagib (while also crying about dieng fast despite supposed to be squishy) anyone while dieing fast despite being a mage/ adc/ assassins they dont realize that their job description only applies to average health pools of which consist of adcs mages and assassins (despite that mages have tons of hp) Fighters and Tanks dont fit in that average health pool due to armor and mr items so what you beilve you instagib versus an adc or mage you shouldnt be able to do anything like that to a fighter or tank. but since riot balace team doesnt have the figurative kahuna's to stand up to the largest player base in the game and tell them that its working as intended but will come back and tell you that if you are a top laner facing jayce or riven, defense has been gutted and damage has been love tapped in the over all strength and suplimented with more penetration crit chance and cdr then defense gutted again and one more time for good measure all the while their player base dropping (no i dont have numbers and neither do you all you have is words from riot that could be true or false)

Pierce The Veal2 votes

The issue is damage is the best early game, mid game, and late game.

“But Pierce the Veal!,” you say, “tanks have a ton of cc.” Well the issue in turn is that damage dealers also have a ton of cc. And if they don’t have cc they have mobility or crazy damage+range.

While attack damage and ap have increasing returns, with on hit/AP attack speed and ad/attack speed/crit having increasing returns. On top of this, if a tank so much as builds a decent amount of defense, last whisper items and void staff are there to make sure their entire build is negated, so it’s not even worth building any significant defense. How about building juggernaut items and doing some damage? Unfortunately juggernauts/bruisers tend to do a little better than tanks due to better itemization and higher damage while still being around as tanky as a tank if not moreso. With some of the best tank items being AD centric, tanks, most of whom have AP scalings, suffer. Not to mention the prevalence of percent health damage, making it so tanks really don’t have a place to do much.

I feel like the issue falls down to the prevalence of CC on almost every champion as well as mediocre itemization. Add on top bad runes and it’s no surprise tanks do awfully in the meta.

FlameHalbrdOkido1 votes

Really? Most tanks have AP scaling but most tank items are AD centric? Talk about backwards, it must be that other AP champions would abuse AP tank items? Why not make tanks AD then?

Crescent Dusk2 votes

LDR should be a ranged character only item. Pretty dumb assassins like Zed can build BC+LDR and treat any tank as if he were a mage.

Jax, Darius, Fiora and Irelia all with conqueror just completely bust up tanks and zone them from farm, so tank champions should have increased passive gold generation if they are by designed intended to not be able to contest bruisers in lane.

In general, tank resistances and sustain are too easily trivialized either by keystone itemization, or top lane passive match ups like bruisers or ranged cheese lanes, and Riot's solution has been to give tanks damage creep instead, which only leads to problems in teamfighting that sees them nerfed back down in no time.

And in the instance when tanks become relevant, Trundle will become a must pick and be either pick or ban since Trundle pretty much dumps on tanks and makes them useless in TF with his ult.

Xela Syab2 votes

Tanks are needed to absorb damage and cc, since damage is too high their job has been completely taken over by mages.

Raiyza2 votes

Dude I miss when Malphite was an instaban because his Ultimate was too good. He's so outshined now, its so sad.

Yaskamasandwich2 votes

Another thing is that while you did stated that defensive items give less, especially as Riot keeps nerfing them and as the game progresses into mid game now not even late game. Top all of that off with offensive items give EVERYTHING! Take item 3139 for example. It gives good AD, 10% Lifesteal, MR, and an active that removes CC. Ironically it is one of the weaker offense items that are built in niche situations. Might get built more now that Mordekaiser rework is here. item 3072 is a great example. Massive 80 AD, 20% lifesteal, a shield, A FREAKING SHIELD ON A CLASS THAT'S SUPPOSED TO BE SQUISHY! item 3812 Another example from same vein. Massive 80 AD, 15% healed for damage dealt so works on abilities, 10% CDR for some reason, and a weird 30% reduced to bleed damage item. Why are offensive items getting better defensive items than defense items? I only play tanks that can use item 3053 because it is a better defense item than any of the items tanks posses now, while giving more damage.

It's funny when you're seeing non-tanks, like support Lux use tank masteries better thank tanks. Even Malphite uses Comet. The change of CDR being from a tank stat to a everyman's offense stat is what broke the tank. in Pre-Season 6 era, I wanted people to use their big moves on me as a tank, if I died and it turned into a 4v5 but the enemy team used all their ultimates to kill me, then my team won. My team could use their ultimates on the back line unfettered, and we'd win. Even with 40% CDR most ultimates would be 40 to 60 second cooldown, however not deal that much damage since you'd have to sacrifice damage

Now you could use your ultimates every 20-30 seconds with massive damage. Blow up the tank, blow up the team with your low CD non-ultimate moves, win.

Champion Skin2 votes

People will point out that tanks need damage and I don’t disagree. They need to be able to lane and clear jungles, but they also need to have reasonable damage.

Well you could maybe make a tank that didn't have much damage if you somehow gave them a way to quickly or safely clear waves.... but that would lead to very little interaction (do the lane opponent have enough damage to kill or threaten the tank and prevent them from clearing the wave the lane opponent win if not they lose or at least can't do much)

Pretty much the whole proxy Singed thing where if it took too much time and effort to kill Singed you would get less gold and exp compared with just sitting under tower and farming your own wave (especially when CS didn't affect dying/killing sprees so Singed could be worth like 50 gold if you were able to kill him a lot)

So yeah tanks need some damage or else they won't ever interact with their lane opponent (why would they?)

Greenette2 votes

So tanks are king in ARAM. If you build them properly with tank items, take the appropriate keystone, and most importantly don't become negative because you rolled a "bad" ARAM champ you'll usually do well. Against a balanced enemy team of course, if the enemy is 5 heavy poke champs with massive disengage its likely you and you allies will tilt off the planet.

Anyway. Tanks are tanky as hell in ARAM. If facing 2 tanks, or even just 1 real tank and a bruiser you are **required **to build every pen item there is or you won't even scratch them. Tanks like Maokai and Mundo are immortal until grievous wounds and even then they are a challenge to kill. Considering ARAM is the definition of fast paced meta why are they able to thrive in ARAM?

Gold flow. Unlike top lane, where they're denied farm and where junglers never deign to visit, tanks in ARAM have increased access to gold. The passive gain and the frequent kills keep their gold relatively even which helps them purchase their very expensive items at a similar pace to carries.

On the rift, a tank will complete one item with boots when a carry has one item, boots, and a component so when the enemy dps is spiking, the tank is dipping. Especially the case vs AP and assassins who spec into early pen because it's universally good for them, unlike ADC's who need their crit and attack speed first.

So yeah, increase the cost of carry items or decrease the cost of tank items before we go around buffing things. I think that's a step in the right direction.

AwShucksÄShuckle1 votes

People forget that the point of a tank is to be frontlining the damage, bruisers are supposed to be back line disruptors, mage/assassins are the burst to deal with bruisers and marksmen. marksmen are the Dps to apply damage to anyone entering their range and supports are supposed to be peeling for your adc so they can do damage. In that world why do tanks need more damage? they have a very well defined role in the game people are just bad at positioning in teamfights and doing their role correctly. 90% of a time teamfights are won by what team forces the other team to peel harder.

Ralanr3 votes

Tank damage is primarily to allow them to trade in lane and clear jungle camps.

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