These new item changes...

Çhåryzård·Apr 7, 2016·49 votes·1,737 views

Am I the only one who thinks these new item changes will do more bad than good?

I'm pretty upset about zhonyas...why nerf its damage but then increase the cooldown? If you're gonna make the item have a longer cooldown then why even touch the damage. Zhonyas was great because it gave you damage but also a way to survive a lot of stuff like Zed, Karthus, or Fizz ults. Now Zed can ult you again before the cooldown is done. Plus it gives you less damage. Why do this..I feel like a lot of these items were fine..

If they want to prepare for the mage updates then why not do all of this closer to the mage updates? Or are they coming soon?

36 Comments

IgotlazyApr 7, 201611 votes

Well granted they did drop it's cost by a solid 500 gold, give it 10% Cooldown Reduction and smooth out it's build path. You can't just focus on the negatives.

ÇhåryzårdApr 7, 201615 votes

{quoted}

Well granted that did drop it's cost by a solid 500 gold, give it 10% Cooldown Reduction and smooth out it's build path. You can't just focus on the negatives.

They didn't just nerf the damage from Zhonyas though, they nerfed damage from a good amount of ap items. They are focusing more on utility but took away a nice amount of damage in the process.

IgotlazyApr 7, 20166 votes

Ok? I thought we were just talking about Zhonya's, not the whole set of AP item changes as a whole. Personally I think everyone is freaking out a bit too early. This is all mostly tentative (heck they don't even have a solid name for one of the new Hextech Items). Lets see what ACTUALLY hits the PBE and how it progresses before freaking out.

Biff ManlyApr 7, 20164 votes

Why are you ignoring his point? What you just said makes it seem like nerfing the other AP items somehow affects Zhonya's.

You can't just focus on the negatives.

ÇhåryzårdApr 7, 20164 votes

[{quoted}](name=Biff Manly,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=UfEmOAAR,comment-id=000000000001,timestamp=2016-04-07T18:46:20.558+0000)

Why are you ignoring his point? What you just said makes it seem like nerfing the other AP items somehow affects Zhonya's.

You can't just focus on the negatives.

I'm not ignoring it. Zhonyas is probably the item I'm most upset about, but if you look at this update as a whole you'll see they nerfed a lot of damage in favor of cost and utility. How are you supposed to kill people if you aren't doing damage? Not to mention with the longer active, you can now be ulted again before the cool down is up. So if you are low and Karthus ults? You're dead. Zed dives and ults again? You're dead.

To be honest, I feel like most of these items were fine for now

Biff ManlyApr 7, 20161 votes

You know that thingy mages complain about all the time? This one ---> item 3156 ?

Yeah, wouldn't want to have utility and kill things at the same time, it makes AD champs so broken, how is it fair for them to have an item that provides such high Magic Resist and a way to completely nullify a mage's burst, alongside crazy high attacking stats?

They should really rework it so it's one or the other, it's just not fair.

('3') ~♩

ÇhåryzårdApr 7, 20163 votes

[{quoted}](name=Biff Manly,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=UfEmOAAR,comment-id=00000000000100000000,timestamp=2016-04-07T20:04:52.372+0000)

You know that thingy mages complain about all the time? This one ---> ?

Yeah, wouldn't want to have utility and kill things at the same time, it makes AD champs so broken, how is it fair for them to have an item that provides such high Magic Resist and a way to completely nullify a mage's burst, alongside crazy high attacking stats?

They should really rework it so it's one or the other, it's just not fair.

('3') ~♩

The thing is, ad carries are fine, and that item gives them armor pen and mr while also giving them a nice amount of damage.

Zhonyas gave you damage, plus gave you armor and the active. It was meant to protect you from ad burst. How is it doing its job if you can be ulted multiple times by Zed while the cooldown is still not done? You use it, then for a much longer time you have no protection. You can get dived and ulted before the cooldown is done and it fails to do the job it once did before.

And if you didn't notice, a lot of mage items have had their damage reduced. Mages have already been nerfed and already don't do enough damage against AD assassins, which have been buffed. Now ap midlaners do less damage. How do you expect to kill someone who's stronger than you if you can't even do nearly enough damage as they do?

Also Maw has a 90 second cooldown. Zhonyas also had a 90 second cooldown. The cooldowns were the same on both actives. They both provided needed benefits to their classes.

Now the active is up to 120 seconds, and the damage has been nerfed on it. How the hell does that help ap midlaners if they can't even protect themselves from the AD burst the item was meant to stop?

Neither one of them were op, in fact, the reason there is one for both classes is to, you know, make it even? It gives a way for an AD carry to protect themselves just like zhonyas gave midlaners away to protect themselves. I only see one being nerfed, and ap midlaners have been being nerfed for a while.

Biff ManlyApr 7, 20161 votes

Maw got nerfed this patch, i believe.

And why would you keep building Zhonya's for damage once it's a purely utility item? That's like complaining about item 3508 not giving mana regen for AD champs after it got reworked into a crit item.

Mages will still have item 3089 , item 3001 , item 3135 , item 3285 etc

You just have to trade damage for utility. You can't play a squishy carry, build straight damage items AND survive, that's just unfair. cough cough

Vellich0rApr 8, 20161 votes

I think you are missing a lot of key points. Zhonya is almost impossible to upgrade right now because of how expensive it is (and that among other things is a lot of the reason mages arent seen as much right now) Dropping the price for the active makes the active significantly more valuable, and giving it the CDR makes it an effective early buy for both utility AND damage. The increased active timer doesnt mean as much when items for mages are being made significantly more cost effective, and the AP reductions on a small subset of items are not that impactful when you consider the other changes. It really just means you are choosing between utility items and strong actives or a literal ass load of damage. Take for example the probable full AP damage build as of the item changes: Tear into Rod, lost chapter for the insane lane sustain passive, finish seraphs and then morello, add a deathcap and voidstaff. You know have around 1800 mana from all of your items, your abilities refund 25% of their cost on cast, the mana you've gained gives you around 54 bonus AP, plus 80 from seraphs, plus 100 from rod, plus 80 from morello comes to 314 without accounting for the bonus on seraph from your standard mana pool. That is a HUGE mana pool and AP pool from 3 items, good tankiness, fantastic trading power, a massive shield, strong CDR, all building out of cost effective components, and then scaling with the 120 from rabadons bringing us to 434 plus void staffs 80 for 514, then the 35% AP from rabs rounds us out to approximately 689 without taking into account ANY of the players runes or masteries, or first dragon, or the champions own base mana. thats generally going to be more stats at a cheaper price than any previous super AP heavy build, and all with incredibly smooth build paths. Can you see how this is more than enough damage? Hell, with a big enough base mana I imagine you could hit almost 1k AP without relying on a veigar stacking mechanic or something similar. The size of those mana pools would be massive, and the meditation mastery would easily make your abilities permaspammable, and now you have decent options for counterbuilding any champion in the game.

ThePartyLeaderApr 7, 20164 votes

{quoted}

Well granted that did drop it's cost by a solid 500 gold, give it 10% Cooldown Reduction and smooth out it's build path. You can't just focus on the negatives.

Please stop using logic on the boards. It hurts a lot of people's brains.

Also I see you used a comma, don't do that.

Thank You

SaiannaApr 7, 20161 votes

where the fuck you see logic in there?

IgotlazyApr 7, 20162 votes

What's wrong with my Logic D:

SaiannaApr 7, 20162 votes

Zhyona for Mages is exactly the same as Maw is for ADCs

It's only job is to protect its owner. It's hard to do it when Riot increased its active CD to 120s, decreased AP to 70 (which helps killing stuff) and added some crappy 10% CDR which used to be pretty OK'ish on other items (boots, morello or athene + FQC = 40% CDR. Or Morello + Athene. Or Morello Athene/Frozen heart. Or even different combination with masteries/runes).

In other words this update kills Zhyona. Which means there are no "positives" for mages.

In late game Zed can ult you up to 3 times in meantime this 120s passes. Where's your protection that this item was supposed to serve?

Now Zhyona has less AP than some ADC items have AD. Which is seriously retarded.

Biff ManlyApr 7, 20161 votes

"It's only job is to protect its owner"

And then you complain about them dropping the AP? Solid argument you got there.

SaiannaApr 7, 20161 votes

Goddamnit.. I removed this part "Ap on Zhyona is a given".. I seriously wrote that, but erased it (cause it sounds waaay too weird)..

Meh

warmcorntortillaApr 7, 20163 votes

The problem with it wasn't that it didn't have CDR or cost 500 less gold. You did not buy it to give yourself CDR. You bought it to survive Zed. That is its purpose--surviving Zed. Oh, yeah, probably surviving Fizz and Talon and other assassins, but its purpose is to survive AD assassin burst, namely Zed. If Zed can ult you before the passive is up again, then it fails to serve its purpose. It had a crappy build path, sure, but that was the price you paid to not die to Zed for free every time his ult is up. Now he can ult you and you can't do anything about it.

There was only ever one positive to the item-- it stopped you from dying to AD assassin burst. Now that positive has been severely nerfed. Nothing else about the item matters. You can build other items to give you cool down reduction, or to have a smooth build path. Zhonya's stopped AD burst. Now it can no longer do so consistently. Thus, a nerf.

ÇhåryzårdApr 7, 20163 votes

{quoted}

The problem with it wasn't that it didn't have CDR or cost 500 less gold. You did not buy it to give yourself CDR. You bought it to survive Zed. That is its purpose--surviving Zed. Oh, yeah, probably surviving Fizz and Talon and other assassins, but its purpose is to survive AD assassin burst, namely Zed. If Zed can ult you before the passive is up again, then it fails to serve its purpose. It had a crappy build path, sure, but that was the price you paid to not die to Zed for free every time his ult is up. Now he can ult you and you can't do anything about it.

There was only ever one positive to the item-- it stopped you from dying to AD assassin burst. Now that positive has been severely nerfed. Nothing else about the item matters. You can build other items to give you cool down reduction, or to have a smooth build path. Zhonya's stopped AD burst. Now it can no longer do so consistently. Thus, a nerf.

Exactly and that seems to be the thing some people don't understand.

With the longer cooldown the item is pretty useless except for once and a while when it happens to be active. Not only did they raise the cooldown, they took out a chunk of its damage. So now you do not do as much damage with it, and you can be ulted multiple times while you're still waiting for the cooldown to end. Oh, and they slapped a 10% cdr on there to make it more about 'utility'

It costed more because it did its job and was a great counter to ults like Zed's. Now with the longer cooldown you'll have to play SO passively if you're already losing lane, and even then you can still be dived. Zed can dive you under turret, ult, and be out of there in less than 5 seconds.

But thank god for that 10% cdr right?

Biff ManlyApr 7, 20162 votes

item 3140 is still a thing. Sure, it only builds into Mercurial, but if you only want an item that lets you survive Zed's ult and only Zed's ult and did I mention Zed's ult enough times yet? and also Zed's ult- it's a pretty good (and cheap) way to survive Zed's ult... among other things.

ÇhåryzårdApr 7, 20163 votes

[{quoted}](name=Biff Manly,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=UfEmOAAR,comment-id=0000000200000000,timestamp=2016-04-07T20:00:16.119+0000)

is still a thing. Sure, it only builds into Mercurial, but if you only want an item that lets you survive Zed's ult and only Zed's ult and did I mention Zed's ult enough times yet? and also Zed's ult- it's a pretty good (and cheap) way to survive Zed's ult... among other things.

And what else does that give you? It'd an expensive item, and sure while it lets you live, you get no damage from it. Zhonyas gave you armor, damage, and a way to survive. QSS costs 1300 gold and only builds into ad items. Other than the active it gives you no benefits whatsoever. It is meant more for ad carries because it builds into ad items.

So you;d be spending 1300 gold for an item that you cannot build into anything stronger. Zhonyas is a MUCH better option, and they just nerfed it hardcore.

Either way, it messes up ap midlaners.

IgotlazyApr 7, 20161 votes

I agree that the active is a crucial component to the item and even in my eyes the Cooldown on the Active should not be tuned down. However, the lowered cost and the smoothed out build path actually helps you RUSH the item against those AD Assassins quicker and more efficiently then before. Early Cooldown reduction also helps as you now have less down time with your spells. Less down time = less openings for these assassins. All in all other than the Cooldown nerf the item seems a lot more geared towards early rushes than before.

YoureSquiddingMeApr 7, 20163 votes

{quoted}

Well granted they did drop it's cost by a solid 500 gold, give it 10% Cooldown Reduction and smooth out it's build path. You can't just focus on the negatives.

You're forgetting the part where it had better stats and cost the same last season.

MrWasjigApr 8, 20161 votes

That was not a worthwhile compensation for what was gutted from it.

HauntApr 7, 20163 votes

Zed's ult CD at level one is 120 seconds, which Zhonyas is also going to be. What are you talking about? Are we going to ignore it's price reduction and CDR and synergy with the other new AP items?

Do you mean later in the game? You're upset one of the most POWERFUL actives is not going to be up for every single fight you take part in?

kile147Apr 7, 20161 votes

I think the active needed the nerf tbh. It is a pretty big counter to assassins like Zed and Fizz (which is good), but it being up almost every time their ults are up makes it shut them down too hard. Zed gets to be more powerful than necessary just because he can be completely denied by a single item. Now instead of a "Zed can't touch me" card, it's a "oops I got caught" card. The smoother build path, cheaper price, and CDR also means that you will be less likely to give up two kills to Zed in the process of building it.

akroOmaApr 7, 20161 votes

Just build tank items. Low cost, more suvivability and more damage. Also Make America Great Again.

bunga chungaApr 7, 20164 votes

tank mages...[zombie-brand-mindblown]

B1naryB0tApr 7, 20162 votes

Tank Xerath

Surge06Apr 8, 20162 votes

Worked for Ekko

bunga chungaApr 10, 20161 votes

tank cassiopeia

Cryo00Apr 7, 20161 votes

Lets at least wait till all the changes are out, so we can actually see how it works out. Then we have the right to complain. Zhonya's nerf is still "Riot, why?"

B1naryB0tApr 7, 20162 votes

The thing is, this is the main time they listen for advice. Once they're out, Riot is going to be very reluctant to change them, this is the time to voice opinions.

Cryo00Apr 7, 20161 votes

You have a point, its just that I don't think people screaming "WTF Riot why do you hate AP" is gonna get them to listen.