By shoving you not only make it harder for your jungler to gank you make it way easier for the enemy to gank. Especially if you don't ward at all. 75 Gold is worth it if it means not dying and giving the enemy 300+ gold.
ZeeDrakon9 votesok you appear to be a main jungler. PRACTICE COUNTERGANKS! this is SO important! the optimal way of snowballing a lane is letting your laner shove, some matchups/champs just need to do that (sivir for example) ward the river/enemy jungle and countergank, get an easy doublekill because gapclosers are most likely blown and you got the surprise effect. a laner pushing does NOT mean you cant gank or you cant help him. as adc especially your pushing the lane if you want to avoid direct trades. that doesnt mean you dont need/ you cant gank bot.
JustMyBassCannon26 votesok you appear to be a main jungler. PRACTICE COUNTERGANKS!
Snipped the rest for brevity, since this is basically the important part.
I prefer jungle myself, and let me tell you, it is extremely hard to set up a counter-gank.
You need to have wards that warn you well in advance of the enemy jungler (or laner) ganking, and there are multiple paths they can take for it. On top of that, you need to be in the same quarter of the map if you want to be able to respond quickly enough. If you're more than 10 seconds away, you might not even make it there before the whole thing is over.
Counter-ganking is less of a strategy and more of a reaction. It is a strategic reaction, but you can't really plan for it. Back in the older seasons when there was no ward limit, you could get enough vision to plan it out, but that's ancient history.
ZeeDrakon4 votesIt is NOT a reaction.as main jungler you should be able to predict where the enemy jungler goes, esp with wards and knowing how the lanes are going and where they srand. Dunno your elo though, maybe thats too much to ask
JustMyBassCannon16 votesIt is NOT a reaction. As main jungler you should be able to predict where the enemy jungler goes, esp with wards and knowing how the lanes are going and where they stand. Dunno your elo though, maybe that's too much to ask
I'm a jungler, not a psychic. I'm going to place wards--and hopefully the laners will as well--in locations where I can see the enemy players coming in, so we can intercept them or avoid them. That doesn't mean I'm going to know where the enemy jungler is at all times. I might see them once in a while when they try to do a thing where I've warded, but that's as much as everyone else will know.
Yes, it is a reaction. The only way counter-ganking can not be a fully reactive play is if you are camping the lane. Which means losing gold and exp to babysit a lane that's pushed, but doesn't want you walking close enough to get exp or farm gold (and I'm not an asshole; laners need their gold and exp just as much, so I'm not going to drain them if they're there). While I have no problem with taking 30 seconds to stand on the sidelines as a human ward, if I wait too long for something to happen, all I'll have done is given the enemy jungler an easy lead--or worse, an opening to take objectives or gank another lane while I was protecting one lane--because I'm not farming anything.
I don't know your ELO, but I know you know nothing about jungling.
T RexHasLongLegs12 votesSo I think the guy you're responding to is wrong too, but as someone who mained jg s3, and plays a champ that is almost always pushed top lane now I can comment a little as to areas where you're a bit off too.
So the thing about maining jungle is you know jungle pathing and thinking better than most other players. While you aren't psychic and can't know where the jungle is at all times, you can predict what they want to do to some degree and if you have wards in their jungle you can guess where they are a decent amount of time by where they are not. I play nunu jungle and if I generally start bot side and ward their gromp/krugs at around 55 or 60 seconds so I can see if the enemy jungle starts bot. If they don't I KNOW they started top and I can steal there buff for free 90% of the time. If you have their chickens warded and haven't seen them there in a while plus your bot lane is perma pushed, drop a ward bot river and go take krugs bc the enemy is probably ganking bot soon (it's what I'd be doing if I wasn't top side and bot lane was pushed by the enemy, so I figure it's probably what they want to do too).
Similarly, while I'm pissed if my jungle is sitting in the bushes waiting on my sidelines leaching exp from me and not getting any gold when they could be farming, if our other lanes are both keeping even but are pushed in and I'm auto attacking the enemy tower top, I'm probably getting ganked soon. Come farm your top side jungle and when you see the enemy cross my ward head to top lane and let's bait them into a fight they'll lose. Side note this only works if I have a ward and if I don't it is not on you to counter gank.
Basically as jungle it's not your job to save me if I'm playing bad, but if I tell you I'm gonna be pushed and we can tower dive at level six in 30 sec come top. If you know you would want to gank me as the enemy jungle and there are no other lanes that look good if you were the enemy then assume they're coming top and either throw down a ward for me (if mine timed out and I haven't had a chance to go back yet), or farm your top side jungle and be ready to counter gank. It isn't always perfect, but if you play that way you'll see your ability to counter gank go WAY up and it definitely is not purely reactionary.
JustMyBassCannon4 votesYes, I have an idea of what they might do, if they're following a normal jungle path. And, in the level of play where people aren't meta-breaking, that's totally reasonable.
Also, that last paragraph's first sentence pretty much highlights the core of jungling.
[{quoted}](name=T RexHasLongLegs,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Ue0oRgfF,comment-id=00000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-05-03T22:14:04.875+0000)
Basically as jungle it's not your job to save me if I'm playing bad, but if I tell you I'm gonna be pushed and we can tower dive at level six in 30 sec come top.
Shoot me a Bat-signal, I'll be there as soon as I can, provided I'm not mostly-dead.
T RexHasLongLegs2 votesThat moment where you are finishing a route next to a lane that is perfect for a gank, and you realize your last potion just finished ticking and you're too low to gank without feeding doubles is one of the worst moments as a jungle 
LankPants1 votesThat moment where you are finishing a route next to a lane that is perfect for a gank, and you realize your last potion just finished ticking and you're too low to gank without feeding doubles is one of the worst moments as a jungle
The worst moment is when they go in expecting you to back them up and the enemy jungle swoops in to kill them.
Jus Clownin2 votes[{quoted}](name=T RexHasLongLegs,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Ue0oRgfF,comment-id=00000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-05-03T22:14:04.875+0000)
So I think the guy you're responding to is wrong too, but as someone who mained jg s3, and plays a champ that is almost always pushed top lane now I can comment a little as to areas where you're a bit off too.
So the thing about maining jungle is you know jungle pathing and thinking better than most other players. While you aren't psychic and can't know where the jungle is at all times, you can predict what they want to do to some degree and if you have wards in their jungle you can guess where they are a decent amount of time by where they are not. I play nunu jungle and if I generally start bot side and ward their gromp/krugs at around 55 or 60 seconds so I can see if the enemy jungle starts bot. If they don't I KNOW they started top and I can steal there buff for free 90% of the time. If you have their chickens warded and haven't seen them there in a while plus your bot lane is perma pushed, drop a ward bot river and go take krugs bc the enemy is probably ganking bot soon (it's what I'd be doing if I wasn't top side and bot lane was pushed by the enemy, so I figure it's probably what they want to do too).
Similarly, while I'm pissed if my jungle is sitting in the bushes waiting on my sidelines leaching exp from me and not getting any gold when they could be farming, if our other lanes are both keeping even but are pushed in and I'm auto attacking the enemy tower top, I'm probably getting ganked soon. Come farm your top side jungle and when you see the enemy cross my ward head to top lane and let's bait them into a fight they'll lose. Side note this only works if I have a ward and if I don't it is not on you to counter gank.
Basically as jungle it's not your job to save me if I'm playing bad, but if I tell you I'm gonna be pushed and we can tower dive at level six in 30 sec come top. If you know you would want to gank me as the enemy jungle and there are no other lanes that look good if you were the enemy then assume they're coming top and either throw down a ward for me (if mine timed out and I haven't had a chance to go back yet), or farm your top side jungle and be ready to counter gank. It isn't always perfect, but if you play that way you'll see your ability to counter gank go WAY up and it definitely is not purely reactionary.
Its easy to say us junglers should KNOW where the enemy is. Its far harder in practice. If they sit in a bush for 10 seconds that throws off everything. If they gank too much/too little, again. Best defense against getting ganked is WARDS.
T RexHasLongLegs2 votesWell maybe KNOW is a bit strong, but honestly that is the word I would use half of the time I'm predicting the enemy jungle and I don't even jungle main anymore. I can usually say with about 90% accuracy what my enemy is doing on first clear which is important if I'm trying to 3 buff.
I'm not as good at it as I used to be but in s3 it seemed like the biggest difference between bronze, silver, and gold (I didn't work hard enough to get past low gold really) was how accurate enemies (and myself as I climbed since I got better at it) predicted the other jungle's movements based on champ and what they probably wanted to do. A really good jungle always seems to be one step ahead of of me and know where I'm going before I get there. It is part of how you shut down the enemy jungle, and maybe you have success with a different play style, but in my experience shutting down the other jungle works better for me than playing an arms race to see who can get their self and their lanes ahead the most while letting the enemy do the same.
Def agree that warding is the best way to avoid dying in lane, but I kinda think any game I jungle where jungles are equal level and we don't have more dragons and barons then I'm getting carried by my lanes, and I generally take the same opinion to lane. Might just be the champs I play though since I don't play stuff like lee sin since I'm too low an elo to have any business playing that (lee below gold is so trash, crap win percentage and it isn't bc of the champ bc if they played him well he would wreck every bronze and silver game ever).
ZeeDrakon1 votesOk. Why did i expect you to understand thism.. you have mid-silver mmr and you play everything with exhaust ignite :D
JustMyBassCannon3 votesCan't come up with a legitimate argument? Let's try insulting him instead :D
I don't give a fuck what your rank or preferred summoners are. You dabble in the jungle, using champions that are considered top tier, and yet you don't seem to have a solid enough success rate to give shit to any actual jungler mains for how they play the game.
Boredom is not an excuse to be a pretentious asshole.
ZeeDrakon1 votesI gave a logical argumebt and you answered with "im not a psychic"... so i assumed you dont want to understand that my previous comment, aczually said why yoh dont have to be. Also, comparing scores is stupid as hell when theres a 3 league elo difference. You'd be 0/10 in all of my ranked games
JustMyBassCannon2 votesFirst, I did not end at "I'm a jungler, not a psychic." That was the introductory sentence. I fleshed out the entire point after saying that. Maybe if you didn't treat the first 6 words as a TL;DR, you'd comprehend what was said.
Second, I'm not comparing scores, I'm saying you're a shit jungler. You have a shit record as a jungler, and you play it maybe once in ten games on average.
Third, I'm not saying this in comparison to myself. Never mind the fact that the color of my nonexistent, digital badge tells you abso-fucking-lutely nothing about how well I actually play in the jungle; it takes only a bit of research into ranked jungle mains in order to compare you to them, and realize that you're the square peg that wants to fit in the star-shaped hole. You're out of your depth and entirely clueless.
ZeeDrakon1 votesIm 11/6 with an avg kda of 3.5 as jungler, in high plat ranked. But surely mister mid-silver will know why that is totally horrible :DDD
You are the entirely clueless one, but low elo people always know best
JustMyBassCannon2 votesA positive win rate isn't difficult with good teammates, and 3.5 is a passable KDA for a kill-focused team member. I stand corrected; you aren't a shit jungler, you're basically average for your ELO.
You're still an idiot if you believe that junglers can be completely predicted to the point where counter-ganks are planned strategy instead of a reaction. Unless your entire team has the vision advantage and is controlling the other half of the map, you can only catch glimpses of where they're roaming. And if you do have the vision advantage, it's usually after the laning/jungling/ganking phase has ended, unless you're going with the full team jungle invade.
LankPants2 votesYou're still an idiot if you believe that junglers can be completely predicted to the point where counter-ganks are planned strategy instead of a reaction.
Oddly enough this is one of the few points where ranking may have a high level of impact.
As you reach higher levels people do the wrong thing less often and if you get into the mindset of "what is the right thing to do" you're actually more likely to correctly guess.
A positive win rate isn't difficult with good teammates
The only constant between your games is you. You also don't get to plat off 11/6 alone, he's been playing at a plat rank or above for more than one season.
JustMyBassCannon1 votesOddly enough this is one of the few points where ranking may have a high level of impact.
As you reach higher levels people do the wrong thing less often and if you get into the mindset of "what is the right thing to do" you're actually more likely to correctly guess.
As you reach higher levels, people also know what's expected of the class, as well as what they can do that is not expected, but still close to (if not equally) optimal.
It's actually not that hard to do at my ELO. If you know what's expected of you, and if you know an equally strong but different strategy, they won't have the right reaction to the playstyle shift. That small offset puts the advantage in your favor.
The only constant between your games is you. You also don't get to plat off 11/6 alone, he's been playing at a plat rank or above for more than one season.
Yes, the only constant in your own game history is yourself. Not your opponents or your teammates, but you. However, this game is quite literally designed to be impossible for one player to be the sole reason a team wins at his level of play (or even mine). What separates good and great players is teamwork.
Also, I'm not calling into question him hitting Plat period. Although I'm sick of players trying to use "You're unranked!" as an argument, because that has nothing to do with how much I've learned over four years of playing the game, the only thing I called into question is his jungle play. The record I pulled up was missing information, and he corrected me on that. He doesn't have a terrible record as a jungler, just what could be called acceptable when you consider what's expected at his level of play.
LankPants1 votesAs you reach higher levels, people also know what's expected of the class, as well as what they can do that is not expected, but still close to (if not equally) optimal.
It's actually not that hard to do at my ELO. If you know what's expected of you, and if you know an equally strong but different strategy, they won't have the right reaction to the playstyle shift. That small offset puts the advantage in your favor.
It's more of a shift to awareness to timers at higher levels than anything else. When you get to higher levels people start doing things like shifting clear patterns to secure buffs.
An example of how you can use this is to ward their first botside buff to try to get the timer for it. You could then utilise that timer to do a few things. You can gank top on the timer assuming there's no dragon pressure as you know they'll most likely be in their bot side jungle. You can use the timing when they move up towards their top side buff to attempt to rush a Drag. Or you could hang around bot side to make sure you're ready to countergank if their jungle does gank.
But the thing with all these strategies is that the only work if the enemy is actually doing what you expect. At higher ranks there's a very good chance they will be but down in lower ranks there's a much higher chance that the enemy jungle is doing their doubles completely oblivious to the fact that their blue just spawned.
Yes, the only constant in your own game history is yourself. Not your opponents or your teammates, but you. However, this game is quite literally designed to be impossible for one player to be the sole reason a team wins at his level of play (or even mine). What separates good and great players is teamwork.
I didn't call your rank into question. I just said that it's silly to dismiss his rank off of solely having good team-mates. I also never said that I believe his rank holds greater sway than yours at all, you're just reading that into what I wrote.
JustMyBassCannon1 votesAnd the thing about knowing what's expected is that you can plan around it. You can either bait them into following their plan in a way that your team can capitalize, or you can force them to change their plan because you don't make it easy/possible to execute it.
I'm not talking about when players do the unexpected because they aren't aware of the Path of Least Resistance (aka optimal route, meta, best playstyle, etc.). I'm talking about players who are aware of the meta, and meta-play around the meta because their opponents are expecting the meta.
I didn't call your rank into question. I just said that it's silly to dismiss his rank off of solely having good team-mates. I also never said that I believe his rank holds greater sway than yours at all, you're just reading that into what I wrote.
You misunderstood me; I wasn't saying that you did this, only that I'm sick of people (referring to FlyingGünther in this case) doing this. I did not read this into what you said, I just...wrote a confusing-sounding response. Again.
Jay Renz1 votesUNRANKED LOL
JustMyBassCannon3 votesAnd my ranking apparently means that I can't make an intelligent point, or understand how the jungle functions. God forbid, someone who doesn't play Ranked frequently has a more informed perspective of an entire playstyle than you, because you have bottom of the barrel Gold marks. Quite literally one fuckup away from being in my predicted bracket.
Rinky Dinky1 votesActually, all you gotta do is sit in the bush of a lane that is pushing hard.
JustMyBassCannon2 votesAlready covered that; camping a lane is the only way that counter-ganking isn't mostly a reactive play instead of a planned play. And you can't afford to sit there all day.
Spacesuit Spiff1 votesThere are situations where this works, usually at level 3 if you know both junglers are working their way top (because the lane is Riven vs Swain or something ridiculous like that). But if you go sit in the bush for 20 seconds and the enemy jungler is just farming (or ganking another lane), boom you're behind.
lDontLiftIcarry2 votesactually. its not hard to countergank at all. The problem is that all these new junglers don't know how to ward in the enemy jungle and track him and counter gank him/invade him so that hes weak if he does gank then you 2v2 and kill them both cause hes 80-50% instead of 90-100% hp
noobs these days think you just show up and thats a counter gank. No. you prep it.
The laner does nothing beside ward and ping him out. its the junglers job to prep and be there. DOn't get this confused. Ever.
JustMyBassCannon1 votesIt's hard to set up a counter-gank, as in actually baiting them into a bad gank.
It's not hard to react by counter-ganking, if you're in the right neighborhood.
Don't get them confused. Please.
lDontLiftIcarry1 votesreread it as many times as it takes.
JustMyBassCannon1 votesYou're describing invading the jungle and calling it counter-ganking instead of counter-jungling.
What part did I miss, according to you?
Salidfingers4 votesok you appear to be a main jungler. PRACTICE COUNTERGANKS! this is SO important! the optimal way of snowballing a lane is letting your laner shove, some matchups/champs just need to do that (sivir for example) ward the river/enemy jungle and countergank, get an easy doublekill because gapclosers are most likely blown and you got the surprise effect. a laner pushing does NOT mean you cant gank or you cant help him. as adc especially your pushing the lane if you want to avoid direct trades. that doesnt mean you dont need/ you cant gank bot.
I think that always brings up the point that laners still needs to ward for the jungler to counter gank efficiently.
as a support main i have countered gank my own lane 90% of the time if my adc reacts quickly eough and all it takes is 1 ward to tell me the jungler is coming.
Kill jungler run to tower.
HouseCat011 voteshow would you do this when neither you or your adc have burst?
JustMyBassCannon2 votesIf you're a support and you don't have burst, you're either Braum or level 1. Take your pick.
EDIT: Or Bard, I suppose.
HouseCat011 votesTaric?
JustMyBassCannon1 votesTaric's damage is more bursty-DPS than pure burst, but the combination of stun-attack-Shatter-attack tends to chunk half of a target's HP at level 2, without any assistance from his carry. And he shreds their armor for his carry.
I've watched my brother, a support main whose favorites are Taric, Braum, Leona and Thresh, do this many times. The guy is freaking terrifying when played right.
Occams Raiser1 votesI just started playing Taric and he gets in a lot of people's asses just by having sheen.
JustMyBassCannon2 votesDon't need 
, he has enough penetration
Salidfingers1 votesHouseCat011 votesthen i guess my problem must be trying to "save" my ult for when I need it, instead of using it when we engage
Salidfingers2 votesthen i guess my problem must be trying to "save" my ult for when I need it, instead of using it when we engage
Taric ult is on such a low CD.
Try this build path:
+
+
+
step 1
Hit 800+ gold before backing and purchase
+
w/ 
and/or 
+ if doing really well.
Backing before 800 gold
2 + + +
step 2
Next back
+ +
step 3
+ and rush 
or 
step 4
and proceed to solo most champions
Everything else is select pick
Spacesuit Spiff1 votesThis is a habit I really need to get into.
I was duoing with this 
main recently, everytime a gank came he would go "alright, bait them and we can turn this". Proceeded to dodge everything and kite everyone dead.
Raid Boss Morde3 votesBut what if you're 
and you push lanes without even trying, and have both sides of mid warded, and when you see their jungler coming up, you walk back to turret, but their mid laner and jungler has 50 million ++++ gapclosers and CC, so you die anyways?
JustMyBassCannon4 votesSo you're saying you went and hid under the turret as Mordekaiser and still managed to get tower-dive ganked without killing anyone.
Raid Boss Morde2 votesNever said under turret, let's say in the middle of the lane.
JustMyBassCannon2 votesBut you did say
you walk back to turret
so you're either saying you didn't start going back soon enough--stayed overextended for too long--or you got to your turret.
You can take your pick, but you either were overextended and it's your fault that you died, or you got tower-dove as Mordekaiser and it's your fault that no one else died.
Rinky Dinky2 votesHe is not aware of how to hue
FilthyFink1 votesBut what if you're
Mordekaiser doesn't die. huehuehue. he is numero uno.
All joking aside, I've had this happen to me quite a bit whenever I play mid Mordy. The key here to throw out your Creeping Death on an ally minion for that speed boost. Then throw out your Q and E on any enemy minions to build up your shield. This boost and shield will allow you to have a quick escape whilst you dodge and/or tank some of that CC.
ZylotheWolfbane3 votesRelated: I just finished a game where I warded more than the supports on either team, more than anyone else on either team actually. I was playing in mid. As Malzahar.
See, all the champs I play shove waves pretty hard, Cho'Gath shoves with his E, Mordekaiser shoves just because he is Mordekaiser, and Malzahar does the same. I don't play ADC much, but when I do it's usually Graves, who also shoves fairly heavily. I have well learned the importance of warding, and it has saved my skin plenty.
However, when I ward, and you see the enemy jungler waiting in one of my warded bushes? Please do something. Gank another lane, counterjungle, come and counter-gank him with me. Pick one. As long as you ping for it, I'll back you up man. I ward your brush, you scratch mine, or something like that. Metaphors.
Cullens2 votesAs a top laner mostly I never expect you to bank, If i can't escape a bank with my life then I won't try and push, sometimes ill get caught, it happens but i much prefer to pull their jungle up top while you get bot lane drag ect rolling, if you are ganking bot getting buffs counterjungling and doing everything you are supposed to then great ill be up here on the island farming up and taking up 2 of their team's time. If you do stroll up here by all means lets get this kill , idc if you even take the kill as long as neither of us die. that way i can push the wave into tower, back and come back stronger then them
alohabroha1 votesAs a top laner mostly I never expect you to bank, If i can't escape a bank with my life then I won't try and push, sometimes ill get caught, it happens but i much prefer to pull their jungle up top while you get bot lane drag ect rolling, if you are ganking bot getting buffs counterjungling and doing everything you are supposed to then great ill be up here on the island farming up and taking up 2 of their team's time. If you do stroll up here by all means lets get this kill , idc if you even take the kill as long as neither of us die. that way i can push the wave into tower, back and come back stronger then them
This is how I play top. My job is to put pressure in the top lane and be able to escape ganks so that my jungler can focus on getting carries fed.
