Is it just me or does it feel like "outplay" no longer applies to this game?

Succubús GF··61 votes·3,787 views

I mean I know I'm going to get downvoted into hell for this, but let us just be real here, I see at least one of Zed Hecarim Graves MissFortuneQuinn in pretty much every game, they all build lethality and there isn't really an "outplay" potential. It feels more like haha oops you died guess you should've bought armor, oh wait just kidding you did! and I shredded through it anyway :^). Rip item 3157 and hello black and white simulator. Is it just me that feels this way? I cant say ive ever been "outplayed" by any of these champions. I just get steamrolled into a ggez.

75 Comments

Ahristocats32 votes

It doesn't

you don't have enough time to outplay anymore a fight between a bruiser and an adc lasted 10 to 15 sec before

Renekton can legit combo you and kill you in 1 or 2 sec now

Asayake 5150glow2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dr Sona x Rubick,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=UQd4O7VE,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2017-02-28T22:34:57.483+0000)

It doesn't

you don't have enough time to outplay anymore a fight between a bruiser and an adc lasted 10 to 15 sec before

Renekton can legit combo you and kill you in 1 or 2 sec now

Ren should always do that, until late game where he shouldn't but still can.

Ahristocats8 votes

he can still do it in late game

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOc09vzfbJk

riot made it possible due to a ton of things since season 2 black cleaver damage creep ect...

renekton used to build full tank and 0 offensive items, but now with all the nerfs since years to defense, all the buffs to offense he just go offense and 2 shots you

this shows why i'm fighting to get back season 2, where fights were longer, and you could outplay

ForFoxSakes1 votes

Renek always opened brutalizer which would go into black cleaver then tank, similar to a lot of AD bruisers. Doesnt just hard tank

chipndip12 votes

Should a fight between just two people last 15 seconds though?

macromite2 votes

IT should last at least five, so that kayle's ult does not last longer than the engagement.

Dasdi9612 votes

Edge of night is the issue. As soon as an assassin gets it all the opponent's agency goes out the window.

Bârd10 votes

Uh, no. Outplaying is still very much a part of this game.

"Outplaying" someone is defined by playing a situation better than your opponent to achieve a better result

Zed jumping on an isolated target and oneshotting them before they react is, indeed, not an "outplay". It's an assassin doing his job.

If that target flashes just right when Zed ults, dodging his spells, then stuns the Zed and bursts him, then the target "outplayed" Zed because the target was expected to die to Zed.

If Zed expects the flash, predicts the location with his Q, and finishes with a flash-E-AA, then Zed outplayed his target, because it was expected that Zed would fail to hit his target if they flashed out of the normal Q area.

For just those examples,

Zed Dodge his Q. A well timed flash can cause you to leave Zed at your prior location when he ults, often causing him to miss his Q/E and negating a large amount of damage. Using hourglass obviously negates his ult, and if he ults in while your allies are waiting unbeknownst to him, he very well may be fucked. Hecarim E has a weird interaction with flash that can let you get out of range. R can be dodged with mobility spells, especially at long range (compared to other initiation spells, Hec ult has a pretty slow travel time.) Graves autos can be bodyblocked by creeps, towers, and even your team mates. His R can be dodged and you get two chances to dodge his Q. MissFortune Don't stand behind low HP minions (duh) and take advantage of the fact that she can't fucking move during her ult. Fight her in areas without other targets she can hit to massively lower her dps. Stay in close range to be able to quickly and easily move out of her ult. Quinn is a lane bully, and can dominate most melees in a 1v1. She can't do so well in a 1v2: fight dirty. Besides that, her Vault can be cancelled by displacements, her Q can be dodged, and she can be baited pretty easily.

Additionally, summoner 3 summoner 21 summoner 7 can be tools to help against them. item 3190 item 3401 item 3157 are tools to deal with their burst. item 3107 can be used to stop a Quinn ult.

Speeedy1 votes

what? i have times where i get deleted in less than .4 seconds that is not enough time to react before you are dead

AHeroNamedHawke9 votes

> Complaining about a lack of agency from high burst champions that don't have to aim > Playing Leblanc Annie

What did he mean by this?

Ahristocats10 votes

[{quoted}](name=Charles Barklius,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=UQd4O7VE,comment-id=0008,timestamp=2017-02-28T22:44:46.781+0000)

> Complaining about a lack of agency from high burst champions that don't have to aim > Playing Leblanc Annie

relevancy for the thread that stands a point which is you can't outplay anymore?

AHeroNamedHawke10 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dr Sona x Rubick,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=UQd4O7VE,comment-id=00080000,timestamp=2017-02-28T22:47:52.833+0000)

relevancy for the thread that stands a point which is you can't outplay anymore?

Because he doesnt actually care about the general state of the game, it's just him moaning about AD champions abusing lethality like everyone else

I can 100% guarantee (especially based on the other reply) if LeBlanc was still the meta assassin he wouldn't be saying a word about "counterplay"

Ahristocats2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Charles Barklius,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=UQd4O7VE,comment-id=000800000000,timestamp=2017-02-28T23:16:26.803+0000)

Because he doesnt actually care about the general state of the game,

and you my friend, are going to tell me that you care about what he cares? instead of just talking about the game and try to improve it?(if we can)

[{quoted}](name=Charles Barklius,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=UQd4O7VE,comment-id=000800000000,timestamp=2017-02-28T23:16:26.803+0000) it's just him moaning about AD champions abusing lethality like everyone else

I can 100% guarantee (especially based on the other reply) if LeBlanc was still the meta assassin he wouldn't be saying a word about "counterplay"

You seem to be a high ranked player, or i'm mistaking shame to not see you talking about the current meta, snowballing, teamfighting,

or maybe you don't find any problems at all i mean you're allowed to, if you like 10 sec teamfights without any decisions involved

AHeroNamedHawke11 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dr Sona x Rubick,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=UQd4O7VE,comment-id=0008000000000000,timestamp=2017-02-28T23:21:20.267+0000)

and you my friend, are going to tell me that you care about what he cares? instead of just talking about the game and try to improve it?(if we can) it's just him moaning about AD champions abusing lethality like everyone else

You seem to be a high ranked player, or i'm mistaking shame to not see you talking about the current meta, snowballing, teamfighting,

or maybe you don't find any problems at all i mean you're allowed to, if you like 10 sec teamfights without any decisions involved

I care about people making annoying threads on gameplay with no substance, as we apparently need an excuse to complain about Zed every waking moment despite Ahri maintaining a 53% win rate and 2nd-3rd highest play rate for mid for the last 2 years

My current experience of the game is everything explodes, as it has been for some time. I'm only playing normals every so often because it's been a boring shitshow since s5, and Riot killed Vlad outright

I used to have long winded discussions about balance and the general state, but there isn't really much point. Riot can do whatever they'd like, and the game is never going to be balanced. As soon as things start to level out or even stagnate, we get a new season with a whole new wave of balance problems

Ahristocats1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Charles Barklius,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=UQd4O7VE,comment-id=00080000000000000000,timestamp=2017-02-28T23:25:19.317+0000)

My current experience of the game is everything explodes, as it has been for some time. I'm only playing normals every so often because it's been a boring shitshow for some time, and Riot killed Vlad outright

Then we're kind of similar, since everything exploads and we both stopped rankeds and One last thing, i'm playing vlad right now, and riot didn't kill him he has 48% win rate toplane which is enough because he's high skilled. And believe me that vlad works right now

I wonder if i can add you on NA, i like to talk with people about the game and it's a silly place here to talk about the game

AHeroNamedHawke3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dr Sona x Rubick,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=UQd4O7VE,comment-id=000800000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-02-28T23:28:24.257+0000)

Then we're kind of similar, since everything exploads and we both stopped rankeds and One last thing, i'm playing vlad right now, and riot didn't kill him he has 48% win rate toplane which is enough because he's high skilled. And believe me that vlad works right now

I wonder if i can add you on NA, i like to talk with people about the game and it's a silly place here to talk about the game

Vlad still "works" in a sense, but he isn't what he used to be

I've done my best to enjoy the new one, but the lack of sustain and need to charge up isn't enjoyable, and I can't carry nearly as hard as I used to

JustARivenMain1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dr Sona x Rubick,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=UQd4O7VE,comment-id=000800000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-02-28T23:28:24.257+0000)

Then we're kind of similar, since everything exploads and we both stopped rankeds and One last thing, i'm playing vlad right now, and riot didn't kill him he has 48% win rate toplane which is enough because he's high skilled. And believe me that vlad works right now

I wonder if i can add you on NA, i like to talk with people about the game and it's a silly place here to talk about the game

Suprised you have an NA account, would love to talk about my experience with how the game is right now, Been playing since Beta and holy it's been a ride.

skyskee0081 votes

Ya dude, Ahri's so busted man. Obviously the only indicator of bustedness is win rate and pick rate.

You're being hypocritical. You're spewing out the same dumbass stat that's been floating around boards about ahri as a response to every "x champ is busted", and not stating anything of substance about what makes her so "broken" or what needs to be addressed about her.

AHeroNamedHawke7 votes

{quoted}

Ya dude, Ahri's so busted man. Obviously the only indicator of bustedness is win rate and pick rate.

You're being hypocritical. You're spewing out the same dumbass stat that's been floating around boards about ahri as a response to every "x champ is busted", and not stating anything of substance about what makes her so "broken" or what needs to be addressed about her.

Shes incredibly safe while having everything a mid laner wants, from waveclear to targeted burst to sustain to mobility. It isn't that hard to figure out friend

AHeroNamedHawke2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dr Sona x Rubick,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=UQd4O7VE,comment-id=00080000,timestamp=2017-02-28T22:47:52.833+0000)

relevancy for the thread that stands a point which is you can't outplay anymore?

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/LA0s9XF6-why-do-people-have-trouble-playing-against-leblanc

:thinking:

Succubús GF1 votes

Playing Annie Leblanc

Annie is easily beaten? And so is leblanc? in fact lb JUST got nerfed? So. Sound dumb?

What did he mean by this?

She, but thanks

AHeroNamedHawke13 votes

[{quoted}](name=Afk Warding,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=UQd4O7VE,comment-id=00080001,timestamp=2017-02-28T23:08:56.267+0000)

Annie is easily beaten? And so is leblanc? in fact lb JUST got nerfed? So. Sound dumb?

She, but thanks

" MY 53% win rate champion is very easily beaten and very weak, how dare you suggest the things I play aren't 100% fair and perfectly representative of my amazing abilities "

I've seen this thread 100 times before, go home friend

Succubús GF1 votes

SO basically, galio has almost 57% win rate, but nobody says shit, annie has 53% (MIND YOU I PLAY HER AS SUPPORT WHICH HAS A 48% WINRATE) In terms of mid lane corki has an almost identical win rate, should we nerf him too? What about talon, who has a HIGHER win rate than her? Are you drunk?

AHeroNamedHawke7 votes

[{quoted}](name=Afk Warding,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=UQd4O7VE,comment-id=0008000100000000,timestamp=2017-03-01T00:12:42.444+0000)

SO basically, galio has almost 57% win rate, but nobody says shit, annie has 53% (MIND YOU I PLAY HER AS SUPPORT WHICH HAS A 48% WINRATE) In terms of mid lane corki has an almost identical win rate, should we nerf him too? What about talon, who has a HIGHER win rate than her? Are you drunk?

0.75% play rate 5% play rate

:thinking:

They also just nerfed Corki and Talon, the former directly and the latter through items

Do you have any other arguments to flail at me

Succubús GF1 votes

So basically, because theyre played so little, YET THEY WERE JUST NUMBER ONE FOR MID LANE hmm... Nope complete balance :) QQ about annie more plox But corki and talon still have similar if not higher winrates than her

? Also, whats lbs winrate again? 47.7? wow, muh op

AHeroNamedHawke5 votes

[{quoted}](name=Afk Warding,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=UQd4O7VE,comment-id=000800010000000000010000,timestamp=2017-03-01T01:01:08.143+0000)

So basically, because theyre played so little, YET THEY WERE JUST NUMBER ONE FOR MID LANE hmm... Nope complete balance :) QQ about annie more plox But corki and talon still have similar if not higher winrates than her

? Also, whats lbs winrate again? 47.7? wow, muh op

Because low pick rates cause wild swings in win rate, as thats how small sample sizes work. I know this is all very hard to understand

LeBlanc is still sitting at 52% in korea despite the nerfs, and Annie is still near the top for every region

Could you moan a bit more about how you're the best and all your champions are just bad? It isn't getting old

Succubús GF1 votes

Hmm, is leblanc number one in korea? No? Also this is NA. NA SERVER get that through your stupid thick skull, mmkay? :) Annie is near the top? as in she is good in the meta right now? Oh wow look at that a burst mage being good in a lethality meta whatever will we do! Can you cry a bit more about how you cant beat champions who aren't even the best, I really wanna take a bath in your salty fucking tears. thanks

AHeroNamedHawke5 votes

[{quoted}](name=Afk Warding,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=UQd4O7VE,comment-id=00080001000000000001000000000000,timestamp=2017-03-01T04:17:46.218+0000)

Hmm, is leblanc number one in korea? No? Also this is NA. NA SERVER get that through your stupid thick skull, mmkay? :) Annie is near the top? as in she is good in the meta right now? Oh wow look at that a burst mage being good in a lethality meta whatever will we do! Can you cry a bit more about how you cant beat champions who aren't even the best, I really wanna take a bath in your salty fucking tears. thanks

See and this is what really bothers me. Are you this emotionally invested in your characters that you can't just listen to simple numbers? The statistics say they aren't "easily beaten", and aren't by any stretch of the imagination bad. You've done nothing to address my original statements (the fact that you don't actually care about a burst meta and only care because Zed's doing it) and are instead just moaning my presentation of win rates

I don't recall ever stating I can't play against these champions, considering one of us is silver and the other was in the top 500 players in season 5 I think that's a pretty bold statement to make

Handin Out Naps3 votes

Don't reason with lb mains. They don't actually realize their champion is perma banned in pro play, and high elo for a reason. Don't forget Zed is cancer because him being able to abuse a broken stat finally made him hit a 50% wr. Xd boards, I love this place.

Succubús GF1 votes

You literally chose to pick a petty fight though? If lb got nerfed, I would literally still play her and wouldn't mind. Personally, all ining someone at lv 3 with her is kinda disgusting, but in the same light, talon can do the same thing, except at lv 2. Not to mention, you and I both know high burst due to lethality is toxic. Annie, is a burst mage, oh look at that she is doing her job correctly. You build, mr against her and she hurts a lot less. LETHALITY on the other hand shreds through armor like it is a piece of paper not to mention there is specifically a 200 g more expensive item than zhonyas that has offensive/defensive stats with 1/4th the cooldown.

Also, that was season 5? This is season 7 lmao. And you are unranked currently. So you sound like those season 1 challengers, season 7 golds lul

AHeroNamedHawke3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Afk Warding,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=UQd4O7VE,comment-id=0008000100000000000100000000000000000001,timestamp=2017-03-01T17:28:01.584+0000)

You literally chose to pick a petty fight though? If lb got nerfed, I would literally still play her and wouldn't mind. Personally, all ining someone at lv 3 with her is kinda disgusting, but in the same light, talon can do the same thing, except at lv 2. Not to mention, you and I both know high burst due to lethality is toxic. Annie, is a burst mage, oh look at that she is doing her job correctly. You build, mr against her and she hurts a lot less. LETHALITY on the other hand shreds through armor like it is a piece of paper not to mention there is specifically a 200 g more expensive item than zhonyas that has offensive/defensive stats with 1/4th the cooldown.

Also, that was season 5? This is season 7 lmao. And you are unranked currently. So you sound like those season 1 challengers, season 7 golds lul

A chain vest or seeker's will counter 9250g worth of Lethality items, and that's at level 18. They don't actually get 45 armor pen until then, so it's even worse. It's a very common misconception that building armor against penetration doesn't work, even if they're stacking Cleaver and LW on top of it (which doesn't matter for 90% of games)

Oh and by the way: A void staff with Sorcs vs 100 MR actually penetrates more than 3 Lethality items.

Edge of Night has a lower cooldown because it can't be used reactively. You cannot decide "I do not want Zed to ult me" with the shield, you have to hope that is the ability that ends up wasted on it. It was overtuned by the buff and has been nerfed already, and AP mids never stopped being meta regardless

Gold Efficiency Zhonya's Hourglass is 92.73% gold efficient without its active.

Gold Efficiency In combat, Edge of Night is 93.31% gold efficient without its active effect. Out of combat, Edge of Night item.png Edge of Night is 101.05% gold efficient without its active effect.

They're almost identical in stat efficiency, both giving offensive/defensive stats, but Zhonya's active is significantly stronger when used correctly

And by the way, I'm still playing with diamonds even now. Just the other day I dumpstered a Master Lee 1v2 as a shitty meme hero, if this game was as fulfilling as Street Fighter I might care enough to get another shiny badge

MontethePython2 votes
Mecha MaIphite6 votes

This is mostly why I like top lane. People are usually tankier, so it isn't so much about "dump everything the moment you can kill them" as it is playing around minions and wearing your opponent down through a few well-executed trades. Mistakes feel as severely punishing as when I'm playing mid, where one slip costs me 60% if not all of my health.

Faceroll Tactics4 votes

Hecarim, the most deadly lethality builder of them all.

OMGSoAnnoying3 votes

What annoys me about Hec is that he can basically build Triforce, go full tank, and still do insane damage... and you can't stop him at all. No amount of cc will do it, since he's immune to it while he ults. And unless you end the game very quickly, he WILL get there.

And yes, you can burn flash for one of them. The next three, you have no flash and you lose If you're not a champ with mobility, of which there are many. There's no outplay chance there.

For the rest, yes there are ways to outplay, and some champions just shit all over them unless they're fed.

Korijenkins3 votes

On Quinn I'll agree with you. Graves is dependent on the player behind him. The rest I haven't really had trouble with.

rafflesz1 votes

{quoted}

On Quinn I'll agree with you. Graves is dependent on the player behind him. The rest I haven't really had trouble with.

Lmao graves dependent on the player? oh god...

His outplay is flashing into melee range and 1 shoting you with auto qr.

Korijenkins1 votes

Well a lot of Graves 1 shot combo is dependent on him getting an auto reset, which a lot of low tier players don't even know is a thing. Obviously it becomes a problem higher up.

macromite1 votes

graves was pretty skill dependant, but I can confirm that he was busted last patch. I played him after not playing him since original rework and stomped. I don't even play marksman, and generally don't play burst characters either.

Smitemuffin3 votes

Oh come on! Just because those champs can buy item 3814 and then either item 3139 or just build tank to become both inescapable and unstoppable doesn't mean they don't have outplay! You can TOTALLY do about 25% of their hp before they kill you and escape in less time than two turret shots

TheDelighted3 votes

There is no outplay. There is just pressing buttons faster simulator 2017. You press buttons first? You win. Tactical and strategic game my ass.

NotSpecialDude2 votes

Outplay to me means this:

"To best your opponent by predicting their movements/strategy or forcing them to make a mistake that you punish."

I.E baiting a zed into a 3v1 using a tri-bush.

You an't being outplayed, your just being run over.

macromite1 votes

of course there are other ways to outplay, my favorite is "play Lissandra and get a zhonya's, try to find the entire enemy team while alone and then when they catch you place ward and ult/zhonya's for five second invuln while the rest of your team collapse on the now moderately weaker enemy."

chipndip12 votes

Outplay's meaning sort of changed. Less about scrapping it out in prolonged bouts. More about setting up good bait or dodging/avoiding critical spells/traps.

Raiyza1 votes

Not much outplay when a Varus can chunk any player thanks to lethality.

Jâshîn1 votes

he's adc, this is what he was always supposed to do

macromite2 votes

adc's shouldn't chunk, they should melt.

NastyMcOutplay1 votes

i find darius is one of the few champions that can actually outplay people anymore

TRVLR1 votes

I've recently been playing top lane more, generally Fiora & Gnar. I feel like top lane is the one lane that doesn't have people spamming lethality (which I absolutely HATE) aside from jayce. I haven't build it nor have the majority of my opponents and it feels great. The duels top feel much more rewarding and feel like they have more room for outplay potential.

flomper1 votes

The game is now run by people who play only norms and go full ad wukong

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