The issue of range top laners is accessibility

Moody P··29 votes·13,646 views

Or rather their lack of it.

To put it simply most top lanes don't have tools to deal with multiple forms of self peel which is usually exactly what ranged top problems have. A lot of fighters have only one tool to engage a fight and that is sometimes not enough.

If you look back at every ranged champion who shows up top lane; Heimerdinger, Lulu, Lissandra, Ryze, Neeko, and so on, they all have multiple ways to escape counter attack, and a lot of times those are on lower Cooldowns than what fighters have to engage with, and thus become very hard to interact with unless you are stickier than they are slippery. Its not that they harass fighters very well, it's that they can't really be punished for the times they slip up unless you just directly counterpick them with Irelia or Yorick and completely deny their ability. That is my overall problem; a Teemo, as much as I hate the champion, actually has to be good at the champion or I can punish him very hard for a slip up and snowball the lane. You can't really do that with the others.

Obviously there is value in having them available as counter pick drafts. That's fine; what's not fine is that a lot of times they force the exact same, very binary interaction of "can you all in me repeatedly and mercilessly? If not, I win." and they don't really have their own niches as top lane picks as much as they just replace whichever range top came before them and either got nerfed out of the lane or found a better home somewhere else.

If you want to fix the ranged vs melee interaction that is most obviously prominent in top lane, addressing their scaling isn't really solving the issue. Making it so that these champions are more specific counters than universally blowing up immobile melees or every fighter not named Camille or Irelia, and giving them more risk in how they play the top lane, would be a much better and long-term fix. Higher cooldowns on their defenses to match the 18-24 seconds most fighters start off with on their engage tools, shorter range so they open themselves up to counter attack more, and maybe some changes like what's on the PBE right now that gives them more specific strengths.

56 Comments

Hammermancer15 votes

First off jayce needs to be turned into a sustained damage fighter, his disengage is fine if they reduce his burst and move it into a more sustained dps and bruiser style. Because it would give more time for a darius or someone to actually get in and fight, but would still allow him to have that duelist capacity. He needs a new mechanic and lower burst

Teemo... needs lower power in his E and W at lower levels, a loss to his Q power and a slightly higher range, it would put him as a bot laner

I wont begin to speculate on kennen because I'm not qualified, though it seems that he is coming up on the list of "Old ass champs that need some tweaks"

Gnar... well I'll admit that gnar is an issue, Again I've not played him enough

Urgot: I think he's alright, i've seen lots of urgots in all elos win and lose against melee matchups

quinn: Idunno, make her a jungler at this point.

Vayne: Swap her %hp damage to physical to at least allow some armor building

Itemization: Protobelt for tanky champs, more anti-poke/anti-burst juggernaut/diver items. has to be unappealing for those who would abuse them.

Jerry SeinfeId2 votes

{quoted} Teemo... needs lower power in his E and W at lower levels, a loss to his Q power and a slightly higher range, it would put him as a bot laner

while i enjoy botlane teemo, this would ruin his build diversity and force him into an onhit adc. nor would this take him out of toplane, it would just make him even weaker than he is now but make him more annoying to melee.

honestly y'all just gotta learn to build item 3194 he's useless once you get it. fuck even item 3065 is enough to beat his ass as garen or singed who historically struggle with him.

Lapantino1 votes

yes let's build it at 1 min nice idea

Jerry SeinfeId3 votes

{quoted}

yes let's build it at 1 min nice idea

god forbid teemo is actually usefull at any point of the game right?

Lapantino1 votes

not sure about being useful but he is pretty annoying at any stage of the game

Jerry SeinfeId1 votes

{quoted}

not sure about being useful but he is pretty annoying at any stage of the game

considering the hair pulling cancer you could be facing. be happy that he's just annoying.

ProfDrDeath6 votes

Quinn :

An idea for her would be: Make her E, the gap-opener, have longer CD to start with (like 22-18, up from 12-8). Reduce E's base CD by 4 seconds per rank in her ultimate. That way, at level 11, her E would have a CD of 14-10 seconds, and at 16, 10-6 seconds. That would make her more punishable in lane, as OP wants, while not destroying her important mobility tool in the later stages of the game. Moreover, it would put more of her in-combat power budget into her ultimate.

DeusVult4 votes

With Gnar you could make him stay in mega gnar form longer. Gnar wins lane because he abuses you with a fucking boomerang, and then gets periodic heals from his transform. If he had to lane for more time as mega, it would allow for melees to actually fight him. I also dont see why transforming allows him to regain health going out of mega, He should gain X health and then lose X health upon transforming back to mini.

Urgot is fine atm, when he was first released his numbers were high.

Quinn: Unpopular opinion but I think most of the top lane lineup if played correctly beat her. The thing is though that if the quinn player actually has a brain they will hard shove and then roam because they are 50 times faster then you.

Vayne: I would rather face 50 teemos then 1 Vayne. Fuck this champ. A well played Vayne in solo lane is cancer to anyone who isnt a ranged laner with CC. It will never happen but IMO this champ needs a full gameplay update because of how much self peel she has.

ÔneWindyBoi2 votes

{quoted}

With Gnar you could make him stay in mega gnar form longer. Gnar wins lane because he abuses you with a fucking boomerang, and then gets periodic heals from his transform. If he had to lane for more time as mega, it would allow for melees to actually fight him. ** I also dont see why transforming allows him to regain health going out of mega, He should gain X health and then lose X health upon transforming back to mini**.

I've been saying this for YEARS. It makes no fucking sense for a range abuser with slows, ms boost, and insane escape ability to ALSO get healed by transforming.

ÔneWindyBoi6 votes

Vayne is such a terrible design. She's always been a terrible design and in the past few years riot has really doubled down on it instead of doing the right thing and changing her kit some. I see it like this: %hp true damage applied from range by a champion with not only a dash AND point and click self-peel is already obnoxious, but FOR SOME REASON she also gains a bunch of MS when chasing you down after you are inevitably low from eating free damage that you have no counter-play for. AS IF THIS WASN"T ENOUGH her ult TRIPLES the MS. What does Riot do about this? First they remove the only counterplay against her R with the stealth changes (brilliant patch by the way /s) and then they give her 50% Q cd when she's ulted. Like, is riot fucking joking at this point? They have to be. The only champions with ults that are even more overloaded are fucking Riven and Nasus LOL

How do we fix it? Remove her passive, figure something else out. Remove 50% Q cd on R. Either change W to flat true damage or %hp physical (I'm more in favor of completely removing %hp damage from the game outside of missing hp scaling for executes because I think that tanks and their items can be more easily balanced that way).

ArfBarkBoof2 votes

Personally, the thing with Urgot as somebody who's been climbing Silver and learning to nearly OTP the bugger is that more times than not people underestimate his damage or don't respect his W. Yeah, he has no real escape with his E if you get in front of him, but until about level 9 if it's a smooth lane he won't have an infinite Cull either. So the easiest way to beat him, in my mind, is either play champions with huge early game power spikes like Darius Renekton Irelia or one who can just make you miserable in the mid-game like Jax Nasus for melee champions.

I say that because yeah, while Urgot loves going all-in and murdering you with a Gatling gun, it tends to lead to a sense of cockiness early game and unnecessary expenditure of shotgun knees for a trade in the lane. Heck, Kled is only really a counter pick because he loves going all in as well and can survive the grinder easily if he's mounted when it's fired.

Or you know, you can pick ranged buggers like Teemo Kennen Neeko Karma and dumpster the crab.

R107 Games7 votes

Ranged champions shouldn't be allowed top; top should be a melee only lane

Exin06 votes

[{quoted}](name=R107 Games,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=UPRjZ6ty,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2019-07-05T14:37:25.434+0000)

Ranged champions shouldn't be allowed top; top should be a melee only lane

ok how do you want enforce that? and the how do you want to deal with natural assasins should not be allowed mid, mid should be mage only lane, bot marskmens and healers only....

DuskDaUmbreon3 votes

Jungle should be plants and animals only. These filthy humans need to get out of my jungle!

SeaWeaboo1 votes

Ranged top laners should just be better balanced. It's no fun havgin to deal with kennen and the like, but having daddy urgod can actually prove to be fun as a melee champion. Its just rito won't provide more counter options, or nerf/ change the champions that are causing so many problems

The thigh guy7 votes

Melee almost always wins by default once they get into range, so why should it be easy for them to gain this auto win condition?

DuskDaUmbreon2 votes

Yeah, that's the thing people like to ignore. Basically any melee in the game except Rakan (fuck you Riot we all know he's melee not ranged no matter how you classify him) will autowin against basically any ranged champion once in range.

Take ghost over ignite for once in your life and enjoy your lane. Or pick up some sustain. Or do something besides scuttle crab your way around the lane.

Moody P3 votes

when has this ever been the case? range top lanes exist specifically because they deny you your ability to kill them or else they wouldn't so frequently find their way in top.

The only ranged champion who go top regularly and has this trouble are Vladimir and Teemo. Karma doesn't, Neeko doesn't, Lissandra didn't, Ryze didn't until his shield got removed, Lulu didn't, Jayce doesn't any time he's good.

Most of these champions have multiple tools to kite and disengage compared to most fighters usually only having one way to get close. Their cooldowns are generally lower too.

If it were so easy as you say this never would have been a problem.

Exin01 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=UPRjZ6ty,comment-id=000a00000000,timestamp=2019-07-06T01:30:51.700+0000)

when has this ever been the case? range top lanes exist specifically because they deny you your ability to kill them or else they wouldn't so frequently find their way in top.

The only ranged champion who go top regularly and has this trouble are Vladimir and Teemo. Karma doesn't, Neeko doesn't, Lissandra didn't, Ryze didn't until his shield got removed, Lulu didn't, Jayce doesn't any time he's good.

Most of these champions have multiple tools to kite and disengage compared to most fighters usually only having one way to get close. Their cooldowns are generally lower too.

If it were so easy as you say this never would have been a problem.

Isnt funny that there are more QQ now about occasional ranged going top (while top is dominated by melee 10% play rate vs 2% and less) then 2y ago when ranged top was common thing and GP, karma tank, teemo, jayce, quinn and others was picked like no tomorow? Top lane was transformed to kill more lane bully heaven and somebody is angry that someone dare go ranged to have even chance to get play the game. Not mentioning lack of adaptability, everyone is going full damage and highest level of defense people are willing to go now is running LS. Just by looking what is top ten played champions on top you dont want be melee against them if you are not one of these OTP because anything else nonraged dont have any chance and it is so bad it isnt even skill thing they can just brute force win no matter how good you play.

DuskDaUmbreon1 votes

And they still don't have perfect winrates. Not even for lane. And the deficit isn't enough to just chalk it up to bad players/broken melees. Clearly there's a solution you're missing.

Maybe I'm right after all? Hmmmmmmmmmmmm........Nope, can't be that.

Moody P1 votes

Most of them have good performances except for Jayce because he was nerfed hard

most have performances dropped because ranged top is still generally a detriment to your team comp; if you didn't snowball most ranged tops fall off except for utility picks. it entirely depends on the context they get picked in which is why Vayne top is more disrespectful against a Darius lock than actually being a good idea.

regardless, their direct strength isn't the point of my thread. there is a missing layer of interaction between ranged and melee that has persisted for years and creates a very binary experience

Maybe I'm right

it would be a first for you

guygoestothestor2 votes

[{quoted}](name=The thigh guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=UPRjZ6ty,comment-id=000a,timestamp=2019-07-05T20:46:24.064+0000)

Melee almost always wins by default once they get into range, so why should it be easy for them to gain this auto win condition?

because if you don't play something with disengage as a ranged top laner your high you can let them get in melee range so they waste their gap closer so you can use your disengage and then just kite them

The thigh guy4 votes

{quoted}

because if you don't play something with disengage as a ranged top laner your high you can let them get in melee range so they waste their gap closer so you can use your disengage and then just kite them

There is no excuse anymore to being kited unless it’s by an Ashe or something.

Stop taking ignite and start taking ghost.

I’ll use Darius as an example here because he is extremely immobile.

So. You decide it’s time to go for a kill on. Eh. Jayce.

Jayce knocks you away in an attempt to engage. You know this.

Your main build consists of triforce, steraks and deadman’s.

So. You get one auto and he knocks you back. Rage passive triggers, deadman’s slows him, pop ghost. He will not, cannot and never will get away from you.

Long story short. Stop fucking taking ignite.

NemeBro2 votes

[{quoted}](name=The thigh guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=UPRjZ6ty,comment-id=000a00010000,timestamp=2019-07-06T06:16:14.707+0000)

There is no excuse anymore to being kited unless it’s by an Ashe or something.

Stop taking ignite and start taking ghost.

I’ll use Darius as an example here because he is extremely immobile.

So. You decide it’s time to go for a kill on. Eh. Jayce.

Jayce knocks you away in an attempt to engage. You know this.

Your main build consists of triforce, steraks and deadman’s.

So. You get one auto and he knocks you back. Rage passive triggers, deadman’s slows him, pop ghost. He will not, cannot and never will get away from you.

Long story short. Stop fucking taking ignite.

Why are you giving Darius three items when the problem is that laning against Jayce he never gets those three items by the time Jayce gets his?

The thigh guy1 votes

{quoted}

Why are you giving Darius three items when the problem is that laning against Jayce he never gets those three items by the time Jayce gets his?

Because nothing Jayce builds will stop this?

Let’s look at jayce’s core items.

Youmuu, he’s in combat and active will not be enough to out run you. Duskblade. Does nothing. Black cleaver. 1/3rd the bonus ms you will get from the same passive on triforce.

NemeBro1 votes

[{quoted}](name=The thigh guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=UPRjZ6ty,comment-id=000a0001000000000000,timestamp=2019-07-06T08:02:47.359+0000)

Because nothing Jayce builds will stop this?

Let’s look at jayce’s core items.

Youmuu, he’s in combat and active will not be enough to out run you. Duskblade. Does nothing. Black cleaver. 1/3rd the bonus ms you will get from the same passive on triforce.

You seem to have some trouble with reading comprehension, so let me spell it out for you:

By the time Darius has three items, Jayce has like four and a half or more if Jayce is not currently nerfed into the shithouse and if both sides played optimally in isolation.

To put it another way, due to Jayce being able to easily bully Darius from afar while being able to disengage if Darius does close the distance (or just all-in the less than healthy Darius in hammer form), Jayce gets his items faster than Darius and as such can snowball.

The thigh guy1 votes

{quoted}

You seem to have some trouble with reading comprehension, so let me spell it out for you:

By the time Darius has three items, Jayce has like four and a half or more if Jayce is not currently nerfed into the shithouse and if both sides played optimally in isolation.

To put it another way, due to Jayce being able to easily bully Darius from afar while being able to disengage if Darius does close the distance (or just all-in the less than healthy Darius in hammer form), Jayce gets his items faster than Darius and as such can snowball.

Except Jayce loses to darius as soon as he has ghost. And as far as I’m aware. You start with summoner spells off cooldown.

Also. Jayce should never be 1 and a half items up on Darius. Do you realize how stupid that is?

You are saying Jayce is going to be 150 cs up on him. :/

Lapantino1 votes

try autowin vs vayne

Troll for Trump4 votes

The answer is/was Crystalline Flask/Doran's Shield + Second Wind, but ofc other lanes start abusing those harder than top, so top doesn't get it's handicap. Doran's shield type item buffed for melees only or reserved for melees could be interesting

GayFluffyUnicorn7 votes

Dunno why riot refuses to add more melee/ranged restrictions.

Ralanr3 votes

Ruins build diversity.

Stupid reason but I guess Riot really hates the “This is not allowed” approach for items.

Death by Glamour4 votes

So would you be fine with lowering the power of melee bruisers so that tanks have a fighting chance in the lane?

Moody P6 votes

sure, remove conqueror and nerf Darius armor pen for his E range back

Śhunpo1 votes

#BringBackFervor DansGame

Midg3t1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=UPRjZ6ty,comment-id=00070000,timestamp=2019-07-05T20:39:39.707+0000)

sure, remove conqueror and nerf Darius armor pen for his E range back

Not only Darius, all melee dmg dealers (darius, yorick, irelia, renekton, kled, riven etc.) should be nerfed then.

noxus is op1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Death by Glamour,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=UPRjZ6ty,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2019-07-05T17:28:38.354+0000)

So would you be fine with lowering the power of melee bruisers so that tanks have a fighting chance in the lane?

if you get rid of conqueror then u have to lower resistances and damage on tanks and im pretty sure theres a big game of dominoes after that cuz if a tank gets bramble vest against any melee champ they usually autowin without conqueror.

D357R0Y3R3 votes

ofc, they should be counterpicks

but they should also be counterpickable

it makes sense for jayce to counter darius it makes no sense for jayce to smash Irelia when Jayce is viable, because he can just disengage easily

Soul Dealer3 votes

The answer is riot just doesn’t care. If riot actually cared about this game at all they would actually sit down and try to make the game better instead of realizing new game modes and skins.

Critmaster Garen3 votes

maybe we need a keystone like they planned to do with the original klepto.

we need something that grants single basic attacks 300 range for melee champions. put it on a 4 second cooldown like grasp while in combat with enemy champions only and give it a fancy animation of a missile firing at them. that way, its not used by melee champions to just poke at melee champions and becomes mandatory in top lane.

but exactly in those matchups where ranged champions poke the shit out of melee champions, youd charge it on their poke and be able to occationally strike back from a distance or grab a minion from range.

it could be a tool to somewhat even out the whole melee vs. ranged matchup in general in this game.

Total Violation3 votes

Dear top lane elitists... Get it trough you thick skulls! Ranged > Melee

If you play these Darius Garen Volibear DrMundo Yorick Illaoi Mordekaiser Nasus Olaf TahmKench Trundle Udyr against a ranged champion, you WILL be harrased, poked and denied farm. You're not going to waltz around the lane like a king and do whatever the hell you want.

As someone who takes Lulu Karma Zyra Lissandra (pre rework) top lane, i enjoy making the immobile melees cry. I enjoy seeing the "OP champ no counterplay" all chat messege from the enemy Darius. I enjoy seeing them hugging the tower whilst i am poking the last drops of their healt from 900 units away. But it's alright, because if i let them win, they become unkillable tanky beasts, who blow up any ranged squishy if hey get within touching distance.

This entire thread is just a "Uuugh my Darius can't reach them so they're OP!"

Hayaishi27 votes

[{quoted}](name=Total Violation,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=UPRjZ6ty,comment-id=0009,timestamp=2019-07-05T20:45:12.820+0000)

Dear top lane elitists... Get it trough you thick skulls! Ranged > Melee

If you play these Darius Garen Volibear DrMundo Yorick Illaoi Mordekaiser Nasus Olaf TahmKench Trundle Udyr against a ranged champion, you WILL be harrased, poked and denied farm. You're not going to waltz around the lane like a king and do whatever the hell you want.

As someone who takes Lulu Karma Zyra Lissandra (pre rework) top lane, i enjoy making the immobile melees cry. I enjoy seeing the "OP champ no counterplay" all chat messege from the enemy Darius. I enjoy seeing them hugging the tower whilst i am poking the last drops of their healt from 900 units away. But it's alright, because if i let them win, they become unkillable tanky beasts, who blow up any ranged squishy if hey get within touching distance.

This entire thread is just a "Uuugh my Darius can't reach them so they're OP!"

So i guess that i deserve to be useless the whole game because i didn't pick after the enemy top laner. Good design btw.

DuskDaUmbreon2 votes

If you manage to be useless the entire game just because they picked a ranged champion, you were going to be useless either way.

Like, really, if you're perpetually useless as Nasus just because they picked Heimer or Zyra, you're going to be useless even if you win lane.

Hayaishi21 votes

{quoted}

If you manage to be useless the entire game just because they picked a ranged champion, you were going to be useless either way.

Like, really, if you're perpetually useless as Nasus just because they picked Heimer or Zyra, you're going to be useless even if you win lane.

You will be behind in both levels and items. Most melee champions are useless if they are not ahead.

Haze972 votes

Dota got over this problem pretty easily by throwing in Phase Boots (and blink dagger but fuck that item).

For one, Boots of swiftness hardly do anything in this game unless you're running inspiration secondary and upgrading the free boots to get all that extra movement speed which you wouldn't get otherwise. A mere set of boots which temporarily grant units temporary movement speed would help fix this problem to a great extent. Hell, you wouldn't even need to give my any stats on the new pair of boots in order to convince me to purchase it on champs such as Darius, Olaf, or even Jax.

Now that isn't all that hard but with every update which allows people to play a fair game come a generation of pampered ADC mains who cry "adc's are umplayable" while split pushing a lane away from their support. No, ADCs (I use this term to describer marksmen) who use auto attacks for some reason have a ton of self peel in this game, all the way from roots, to stuns, to knock backs. With boots like these melee vs ranged matchups would become a game of skill more than who gets first pick and cheese.

ÔneWindyBoi3 votes

Dota also has turn speed as a game mechanic while league does not. In Dota it takes time for your character to turn around, which means ranged right clickers don't get to kite nearly as freely as they do in League.

preternatural1 votes

just play irelia she's a swiss army knife. highest quality.

ThisName1sDumb3 votes

{quoted}

just play irelia she's a swiss army knife. highest quality.

She's also got like a 46% win rate...

preternatural1 votes

{quoted}

She's also got like a 46% win rate...

oh ok so she needs buffs. noted.

Haze971 votes

Better nerf Irelia.

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