An indepth analysis of a game that the outcome may seem apparently obvious

Hibeki··2 votes·1,231 views

I have a great game here I think we should all take a look at.

Now I'm not witch hunting or blaming anyone here, no flame or anything. I am presenting this game to show that how some small factor that may have seen ok can cause a horrible turn around somewhere else.

Here it is. Try to avoid assumptions.

http://imgur.com/PwLgh9L

Now your first thought most likely is, "Wow, that Darius sure fed that game!" And the answer to that?

Well, yes. That Darius was me. I'm not ashamed of this. I fed like mad that game. However, you'll also notice despite this I still managed to stay in the game. I had comparable gold to the mage on the enemy team, and the lucians build allowed me to tank his damage for quite some time.

Now your second thought most likely is, "Wow, that Pantheon is super fed!" And the answer to that?

Well, yes! Pantheon was fed as hell, taking that gold mostly from me. It sucked! I was virtually helpless. As illustrated here:

http://imgur.com/X91Qrb3

Geez, thats a lot of kills top! The Darius got ganked early. His opponent was a Gragas top, so it usually doesn't play too much of a part. This is still a winnable lane! Playing Alpha against a Gragas leaves him nearly helpless. So playing back was out of the question, as holding back as a Darius is essentially forfeiting a lane.

Even if we subtract those 11 kills top, Pantheon still boasts a comparable KP of 13 along with his 300% lead.

Wow, their jungler looks like they did really good, hmm, I wonder how the other jungler did?

That's odd...

http://imgur.com/DGJ6qtj

That CS lead is quite a large sum. You would think with pantheon spending so much time top lane, there would be a CS lead in the opposite direction, right?

Well, you'd be right, for the most part. Early on in the game our lee sin took his red buff, and it was about 1 kp vs 1 kp, except Pantheon was at 6 cs and Lee Sin was at about 21, He did really good at the start!

So what happened? 75 cs in a 32 minute game game equates to about 2.5 cs a minute, so he clearly wasn't farming.

So what did Lee Sin do about this?

http://imgur.com/8gbUHvi

Unfortunately, nothing.

The Lee Sin's only kills in laning phase were mid. In fact, he contributed to the problem top by dying four times there!

So with this lack of pressure, why was there such a CS loss?

Because He didn't clear. Most of the game there were 4+ Jungle camps up. And despite Pantheon clearly showing interest in hanging top, and being a strong solo jungler, we have no dragons.

This shows how important a jungler is in this game. The top lane massacre could have been tolerable had the other jungle acted appropriately. But instead, Lee Sin chose to do nothing most of the entire game.

Lee Sin had three options

A) Countergank and provide pressure

B) Farm camps and gain a CS lead, maybe take a dragon or two

C) Provide counter-pressure and force Pantheon to deviate attention to other parts of the map, lessening the burden on top lane.

But unfortunately, did none of those three things.

The jungler is super important. Without the jungler this is exactly the type of game you'll see. There is so much more to jungling than taking the buffs and ganking a lane level 3.

It's Pressure. You CAN gank a warded lane. Just being around when they are pushed to the tower can do a lot more than you think. It can give that person a sizeable farm chunk as well as save them a big chunk of health they would have spent vs poke trying to gain that farm, and all you had to do was show your face!

Normally gaining a farm lead would be a real option, but unfortunately most dominate jungler are very good at clearing and ganking at the same time. So if an enemy jungler is ganking a lot at most youll get is a 15-20 cs lead, which isn't really enough.

Normally this would have been solved by invading the enemy jungler to take their camps, but many things prevent that now.

A) Plants now give sustain, shortcuts, and vision to deny you that possibility

B) Camps do a huge amount of damage, so if you should be seen clearing those camps you will be at a severe hp disadvantage.

C) Vision is at an all time high from free wards and you'll be seen most of the time

So gaining a farm lead is simply not an option. As a jungler the best thing you can do is counterpressure. It doesn't even have to be that same lane.

I really hope this analysis showed how important the jungle role is, and when a game could be assumed to be lost by a lane, the absence of jungle pressure is the biggest cause of losses.

15 Comments

Gregor Gysi2 votes

I am a toplane main so I generally have quite a bit of sympathy for getting camped, but come on.

Well, yes! Pantheon was fed as hell, taking that gold mostly from me. It sucked! I was virtually helpless. As illustrated here:

Okay so just imagine that you didn't first look at the enemy comp when the minions were already clashing: you got a Lee in the jungle who is hard to invade, a Morgana midlane who will just stack back and afk push and an Ezreal Karma lane that is super hard to gank. That means their Pantheon is absolutely fucked and super useless unless.. He is able to snowball top. This guy can't do anything except for ganking toplane over and over again so all you have to do is survive the jungle pressure that is inevitably going to come top. Yes, inevitably. You are talking like it was God that decided that you are going to get camped, but as a matter of fact Pantheon can only gank top (unless he is super fed). Keep in mind that junglers are SUPER impactful as you said so if you draw some pressure top without dying you are essentially the MVP of the game as Pantheon falls off super hard without snowballing - and he can't snowball anywhere else. Your win condition is just not feeding and I don't say that because of the 2020 hindsight, I say that because it was obvious from champ select.

Geez, thats a lot of kills top! The Darius got ganked early. His opponent was a Gragas top, so it usually doesn't play too much of a part. This is still a winnable lane! Playing Alpha against a Gragas leaves him nearly helpless. So playing back was out of the question, as holding back as a Darius is essentially forfeiting a lane.

Correct: "the Darius let himself get ganked early". Your opponent is Gragas which means that you have absolute wave control. He cannot force you to use your Q on the wave as he is simply to weak to aggressively trade with his W and would draw minion aggro (which pushes the wave to you).

Playing "Alpha" in this scenario makes NO sense considering how your team didn't need you to roflstomp a tank who can't do anything 1v1 against Darius - it needed you to think. But what do you do? You push in under Gragas turret apparantly without vision because Panth just walks through tri brush from red site and ganks you. Eh. So what do you do after getting ganked? Yes, you die again within 2 minutes. And then? You die solo against Gragas.

So Lee didn't really get a whole lot done which is somewhat understandable as the lanes are hard to gank pre6 in this match (although botlane could be an option) and he did not countergank top although he built up some control with invading their red and killing Panth so that's not too shabby. The real mistake of Lee is that he tried to come top which didn't work (duh) as you just fed too hard. Overall Lee reacted poorly to a bad situation - but you put him in that situation. You died pre 5 minutes to an underleveled Pantheon without red buff, it's very understandable that Lee did not expect that.

Yes, Lee Sin did not play this game anywhere close to optimal, but there is no excuse for you totally shitting the bed and your are certainly in no position to shit talk that poor jungler here.

Hibeki1 votes

You misunderstand. The point of all this was not to shit talk anyone. There was no salt, and I have nothing against the Lee Sin. The point was that Junglers have massive control over a tide of the game.

I made sure to ward early for the level 3 gank, but because Lee messed with the jungler with that good early start it didn't hit. After warding the tri the laner communicated that it had been warded, so he went around it. Big mistake on my part. Past then it was all ults, no real amount of vision can stop that.

The Lee Sin didn't react poorly, he didn't react at all. The abysmal farm shows that he really just didn't do anything, if anything no pressure would be free roam on the jungle camps, but he didn't do that.

I got fucked against the gragas, big time. The gragas played very well. I got punished super hard in that solo kill, a well placed ult to push me into a turret with no minions to get aggro. I felt so embarassed.

But lets be honest here, if you aren't going to give pressure to lanes theres no reason you should be that behind in farm. You should at the very least have a minor CS lead. In the end, you can see that the Lee Sin had virtually nothing to keep him in the game, while the Darius who built up this mess in the first place was still contested for highest level on his team, while Lee Sin contested for the lowest.

Someone reacting poorly would have more than 2.5 cs per minute, if not would have had a more comparable kp. The problem was he didn't react at all.

Gregor Gysi1 votes

{quoted}

You misunderstand. The point of all this was not to shit talk anyone. There was no salt, and I have nothing against the Lee Sin. The point was that Junglers have massive control over a tide of the game.

The top lane massacre could have been tolerable had the other jungle acted appropriately. But instead, Lee Sin chose to do nothing most of the entire game.

That is obvious blame shifting.

The Lee Sin didn't react poorly, he didn't react at all. The abysmal farm shows that he really just didn't do anything, if anything no pressure would be free roam on the jungle camps, but he didn't do that.

He killed Panth, got his red, ganked mid (fed Panth counterganked and nothing happened) and counterganked top (and died as they were too fed). That is what he did pre 10 and the only thing that seperates him from Panth is that Panth got some free kills top. Sure, I bet Lee did not play optimal but it's hard to play against a snowballing Pantheon.

I got fucked against the gragas, big time. The gragas played very well. I got punished super hard in that solo kill, a well placed ult to push me into a turret with no minions to get aggro. I felt so embarassed.

But make no mistake, the embarassment should not come from getting outplayed mechanically, it should come from pushing in to his turret after getting ganked twice.

But lets be honest here, if you aren't going to give pressure to lanes theres no reason you should be that behind in farm. You should at the very least have a minor CS lead. In the end, you can see that the Lee Sin had virtually nothing to keep him in the game, while the Darius who built up this mess in the first place was still contested for highest level on his team, while Lee Sin contested for the lowest.

Yeah because you didn't back when you had to and insist on taking minions that you clearly could not afford to take and died for it. Also, a Darius has it much easier to come back than a Lee Sin and Gragas is not the type of toplaner that is going to punish you by solokilling you over and over, he will just push the wave and roam (which he did and he snowballed mid). Good on you for taking the waves in his absence - as you were so worthless they only walked top when there was a minion wave and just farmed you as the cannon minion.

Sorry if this comes across as to crass, but the fact that you still think that your play had even some merit to it shows that you haven't learned anything from this game.

Someone reacting poorly would have more than 2.5 cs per minute, if not would have had a more comparable kp. The problem was he didn't react at all.

If you want to show a game of poor jungling try to use one in which you did not try to make this a worst scenario game for any jungler.

9 X1 votes

Somebody got a TL;DR version?

Hibeki1 votes

TL:DR Jungler role is super important, and that an absence of a jungler can make a huge change in the laning phase to an outcome of a game that most would assume to be the laners fault.

Häßlich1 votes

The outcome WAS the laner's fault, but the jungler didn't do enough to mitigate it, or gain advantage elsewhere.

Hibeki1 votes

Left out a word, totally changed the meaning of the sentence.

Lapis2 votes

{quoted}

Somebody got a TL;DR version?

tl;dr, this guy is blaming his jungler for his loss

Hibeki1 votes

At what point in the post did I say "Lee sin was the cause of our loss and that I did flawlessly and its all his fault"?

Häßlich1 votes

I'm not disagreeing with your analysis, but ultimately, playing safe would still have been a better option than feeding harder. Sometimes you have to forfeit a lost lane and roam to get back in the game. Sitting there and giving up kills constantly only hurts your team--even more so than giving up that tower would have.

Hibeki2 votes

Something I added into the post:

Even if we subtract those 11 kills top, the pantheon still has a comparable KP of 13 vs 14 with a ~140 cs lead and three dragons. Completely discounting the events happening top lane, the pantheon still had an enourmously bigger impact on the game than the jungler did.

Gregor Gysi1 votes

Dude. Are you even serious? He took a free snowball toplane and took it on the other lanes, it's Pantheon ffs. OF COURSE he takes those dragons and kills, he is FED. His farm is super inflated because he likely stopped farming the jungle (although he oneshotted those camps rather quickly with that lead) and just took kills turrets and lane farm.

If you get several free kills so early in the game as a Pantheon you would have to be.. Really really not good to not absolutely stomp this game. The other lanes just played safe so they had no advantage when their fed Panth + Gragas came and penetrated them. Are you really blaming anyone but yourself for Pantheon going off?

xxxDogmanxxx1 votes

You typed out a pretty lengthy post analyzing what the jungler should have or should not have done to help you. Okay, fair enough. Now please go and type out an equally lengthy reply to this comment to analyze what YOU should have or should not have done to help your jungler.

Then, when you're done with that, please reevaluate this conclusion you typed:

... when a game could be assumed to be lost by a lane, the absence of jungle pressure is the biggest cause of losses.

Hammermancer1 votes

If i can be honest I rarely see a non-snowballing pantheon, and usually my response to a pantheon running amok is to hold the damned line.

See the thing is, pantheon falls off harder than any champion in the game that i can think of. Even in mid lane you can start to kill a fed pantheon.

BUT

It is your duty to not let your laner get fed off of you, or to at least keep even with him in general gold value

If you're 0/12 you better have a 160-190 cs lead on him

Since that's not a fair response i'll be more clinical.

If i have a pantheon top, for example, as my opponent. I make sure that A.) if he gets a kill on me I'm going to force him out of lane as soon as I'm back and then i'm going to farm under my tower, forcing him back every time he comes within cs range.

If I have a pantheon jungle to deal with and I'm a laner, I'm going to ward, Build an early zhonyas, and not do something stupid with my flash

IT IS MY JOB NOT TO FEED

actually it's even good for my team if enemy jungle tries and fails to camp me for a little too long, so after i flash out i might poke him, Heck i might even allchat a "wow bro... was that a gank?"

Because it's my job to chip away at their confidence. Hopefully getting that jungler fixated on me to give my jungler better global pressure.

Now I'm inclined to agree that jungle has an extremely delicate roll for how valuable it is, but hey, if jungle and one lane loses that's abbout the same as losing two lanes.

but you can't lose jungle

well you can lose map presence, a good jungler either maintains balance, or gets one to two lanes snowballed (With luck)

see the thing is, if i were jungling, and I see a darius top lane feeding his ass off, but I know i can camp mid, then i'm probably going to take the safe route and just ignore top lane, because i'll try to fix the gold imbalance on my team by getting mid lane fed to hell, and of course I'll be bot too.

If that pantheon is camping top, I'm going to camp in between mid and bot, I'm going to take as much of his farm in the bot jg as I can while going between mid and bot for ganks when possible. Because frankly, your laner is too fed to fight on their own, 2v1, but its not going to be a 2v1, it's going to be a 2v2.

When pantheon finally goes somewhere else I'm going to follow him and hope we can 2v1 him with our consolidated farm players, where i have spent my effort to try to get them going, bonus points if he's dumb enough to go bot lane.

See my general strategy is to try to snowball my mid laner and to take them with me on a field trip to bot lane, then to gank for them again and we go on a field trip to bot lane again.

Because four fed is better than three fed.

and as a jungler I know your lane is lost, and that the best you can do for the team is to get cs, have my jungle farm top if you need it, and to get back into a state of relevancy.

Hibeki1 votes

Actually, if you go look at the end of the game, I have exactly double gragas's CS/M

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