The problem with using winrates, especially for Champions people tend to main

CupcakeTrap··4 votes·1,172 views

http://i.imgur.com/ydfPVUA.png

People have been talking a lot about winrates recently. Veigar's winrate is down drastically, for instance. While I agree that Veigar was absolutely wrecked by the latest nerfs, I wanted to say: we shouldn't rely too much on winrates, especially for Champions (like Veigar) who are usually played by Summoners who main them.

Why? Simply put, these are matchmade games. If you win a match, it gives you a harder subsequent match. If you lose a match, your next match is easier. If I played AP Garen Support for 100 matches, my AP Garen Support winrate would be about 50% by the end of it, because the system would adapt and tank my MMR until I was playing against people whose best Champions and playstyles were only about as strong as my AP Garen Support. It works the other way, too: let's say Riot releases Pingu, an absurdly OP Champion. If I play 100 matches with Pingu, I'll have about a 50% winrate by the end. Even if I had an 80% winrate with him to start with, the more matches I play, the more my games will be telling the system, "Pingu has a 50% winrate".

Lest anyone think I'm saying that Vegiar wasn't nerfed, I assure you, that's not my point. Veigar's nerfs are absolutely ridiculous. It is now no longer possible to stun a target unless they're already CC'd or they choose to run into the wall for some reason. His rotation gets minion-blocked. He's completely broken. They can buff his raw numbers to the point where he'll be viable, but his gameplay has become extremely flat: no more 1v1, and your teamfight is reduced to "walk over, throw your stun somewhere, lob damage indiscriminately until you die." That said, because people tend to main Veigar, I think his winrate will start rising back to 50%.

But even if Veigar's winrate starts climbing back up, that shouldn't be taken as evidence that "people are adapting". It's much more likely that it's the system adapting, at least to the extent that my theory is true that most Veigar players are Veigar mains who play him almost exclusively. (Speaking of, there's another winrate problem: if you play a trash Champion almost exclusively, you'll be giving major winrate buffs to any Champion whom you also play.)

A better metric would have to take into account the MMR at which those wins and losses happen, and should probably also factor in total number of games played: if you're at 50% winrate at 1500 MMR with your main, and then Pingu comes out and you play him, and right out of the box you have even a 50% winrate with Pingu, that should be evidence that Pingu is drastically OP, because you're playing as well with him as you were your main, into whom you'd invested thousands of games of practice.

EDIT: Actually, I just realized Riot now has a great dataset for this: they have Champion-specific MMRs from Team Builder. If you want to know how badly nerfs hit Pingu, you should look at how Summoners' Pingu-specific MMRs have changed since the nerfs. Perhaps compute a ratio of Pingu-specific MMR to overall Normal MMR, or to a "basket of (whatever role Pingu is)".

16 Comments

LANWhale3 votes

Heh, every time I hear the word winrate I cant help but remember Evelynn....it was so sad and yet so funny at the same time.

CupcakeTrap1 votes

{quoted}

Heh, every time I hear the word winrate I cant help but remember Evelynn....it was so sad and yet so funny at the same time.

Evelynn's an example of where winrate corresponds better to strength, because she was a pretty common "troll pick", meaning that people who weren't hardcore Evelynn mains (and whose MMRs were not set to their "Evelynn MMR") would sometimes play her, and usually lose.

LANWhale1 votes

Sad times, sad times.

The funny part is that they promised they would never nerf a champion based on Winrate.

Enter Warwick & Sivir

Sivir's was more understanding. A 60% win rate is a bit overwhelming, but Warwicks was badly handled. The champion wasn't OP but the Item was OP. So what they deiced to do was nerf not only Warwick but also the item. Effectively destroying Warwick from ever seeing any competitive play as well the item.

turtlecoon1 votes

if you're at 50% winrate at 1500 MMR with your main, and then Pingu comes out and you play him, and right out of the box you have even a 50% winrate with Pingu, that should be evidence that Pingu is drastically OP, because you're playing as well with him as you were your main, into whom you'd invested thousands of games of practice.

That's not true. If Zed came out with a 50% winrate, yeah, that'd be pretty stupid. But if Garen came out with a 50% winrate? That seems pretty balanced. Some champions have a ridiculous level of nuance. Others are beyond straightforward.

CupcakeTrap1 votes

{quoted}

That's not true. If Zed came out with a 50% winrate, yeah, that'd be pretty stupid. But if Garen came out with a 50% winrate? That seems pretty balanced. Some champions have a ridiculous level of nuance. Others are beyond straightforward.

I agree that Champions can and should have different winrate-over-games-played curves.

Let me explain the previous example in more detail, though. Let's say that you have a main. You've played that main for thousands of games and truly mastered them. You're at 50% winrate with them, at 1500 MMR. If you randomly switched to another Champion, your winrate would nosedive and your MMR would drop to about 1300 MMR. Those 200 points of MMR represent your accumulated expertise with your main.

If you picked up a brand new Champion named Pingu and maintained a 50% winrate at 1500 MMR, that would to me be evidence that Pingu was overpowered, because right out of the box you were playing him as well as your main. Even if you never got any better with Pingu, i.e., even if he had a totally flat "Garen-like" experience curve, I'd still say he was OP: it doesn't seem fair that you can get 1500 MMR either by maining a Champion for thousands of games and learning the intricacies of their skills or by buying Pingu.

And I'd add that if Pingu were more Zed-like, with a more upward experience curve, it'd still be broken. It'd actually be more broken: you'd be holding steady at first, rather than taking an initial nosedive, and then you'd gain even more MMR as you actually learned how to play him. Maybe in a few dozen games you'd be at 1700 MMR.

turtlecoon1 votes

{quoted}

I agree that Champions can and should have different winrate-over-games-played curves.

Let me explain the previous example in more detail, though. Let's say that you have a main. You've played that main for thousands of games and truly mastered them. You're at 50% winrate with them, at 1500 MMR. If you randomly switched to another Champion, your winrate would nosedive and your MMR would drop to about 1300 MMR. Those 200 points of MMR represent your accumulated expertise with your main.

If you picked up a brand new Champion named Pingu and maintained a 50% winrate at 1500 MMR, that would to me be evidence that Pingu was overpowered, because right out of the box you were playing him as well as your main. Even if you never got any better with Pingu, i.e., even if he had a totally flat "Garen-like" experience curve, I'd still say he was OP: it doesn't seem fair that you can get 1500 MMR either by maining a Champion for thousands of games and learning the intricacies of their skills or by buying Pingu.

And I'd add that if Pingu were more Zed-like, with a more upward experience curve, it'd still be broken. It'd actually be more broken: you'd be holding steady at first, rather than taking an initial nosedive, and then you'd gain even more MMR as you actually learned how to play him. Maybe in a few dozen games you'd be at 1700 MMR.

You don't need to explain it - what you meant was clear. But there are some logical fallacies in your reasoning.

"It doesn't seem fair that you can get 1500 MMR either by maining a Champion for thousands of games and learning the intricacies of their skills or by buying Pingu." Except that those thousands of games did more than simply boost your experience with that one specific champion. In those thousands of games, you played with and against every champion in the game multiple times, you improved your general game sense and mechanics, you got better at last hitting, you learned to control you anger, you improved your warding and tailored your aggresion, etcetera. I mained Cho'Gath from level 1 to level 30. I played only Cho'gath in ranked all the way up to gold. Then I switched to Hecarim and immediately climbed to plat. Does that mean Hecarim was broken? No. The majority of the things I learned while playing Cho'gath carried over cleanly, because the majority of the things I learned were about the game itself, not about Cho'gath.

You're trying to cleanly summarize something that isn't meant to be summarized, so you're losing some of the most relevent details in the process.

CupcakeTrap1 votes

{quoted}

You don't need to explain it - what you meant was clear. But there are some logical fallacies in your reasoning.

"It doesn't seem fair that you can get 1500 MMR either by maining a Champion for thousands of games and learning the intricacies of their skills or by buying Pingu." Except that those thousands of games did more than simply boost your experience with that one specific champion. In those thousands of games, you played with and against every champion in the game multiple times, you improved your general game sense and mechanics, you got better at last hitting, you learned to control you anger, you improved your warding and tailored your aggresion, etcetera. I mained Cho'Gath from level 1 to level 30. I played only Cho'gath in ranked all the way up to gold. Then I switched to Hecarim and immediately climbed to plat. Does that mean Hecarim was broken? No. The majority of the things I learned while playing Cho'gath carried over cleanly, because the majority of the things I learned were about the game itself, not about Cho'gath.

You're trying to cleanly summarize something that isn't meant to be summarized, so you're losing some of the most relevent details in the process.

There is definitely Champion-independent skill. If you give HotshotGG a brand new Champion, he's going to do a heck of a lot better with them than I would, even if we're both playing them for the first time.

I wouldn't necessarily say that sort of data indicates that Hecarim is broken. However, I would say that if you switch from your main to Hecarim and immediately surge up in MMR, it indicates that either you're just a natural Hecarim (or uncommonly unsuited for Cho'gath) or Hecarim is overpowered relative to Cho'gath. Of course, if there's another player who had the reverse experience, I think those datapoints cancel out; the whole idea here is to look at the aggregate. If there are a thousand people with that same experience (switched from Cho to Hec, climbed dramatically), and none with the reverse experience, I would say that this is evidence of Cho'gath being weaker than Hecarim, at least (e.g.) in that band of MMR.

It just occurred to me: Riot does have good data here. They have Champ-specific MMR in Team Builder. That's the data I'd want to look at.

turtlecoon1 votes

{quoted}

There is definitely Champion-independent skill. If you give HotshotGG a brand new Champion, he's going to do a heck of a lot better with them than I would, even if we're both playing them for the first time.

I wouldn't necessarily say that sort of data indicates that Hecarim is broken. However, I would say that if you switch from your main to Hecarim and immediately surge up in MMR, it indicates that either you're just a natural Hecarim (or uncommonly unsuited for Cho'gath) or Hecarim is overpowered relative to Cho'gath. Of course, if there's another player who had the reverse experience, I think those datapoints cancel out; the whole idea here is to look at the aggregate. If there are a thousand people with that same experience (switched from Cho to Hec, climbed dramatically), and none with the reverse experience, I would say that this is evidence of Cho'gath being weaker than Hecarim, at least (e.g.) in that band of MMR.

It just occurred to me: Riot does have good data here. They have Champ-specific MMR in Team Builder. That's the data I'd want to look at.

No, I just found new motivation to actually play ranked. I was getting somewhat bored on Cho'gath and stopped grinding ranked, so my ELO was well below its realistic peak. Hecarim was fun so I started playing a lot again, and climbed quickly as a result.

It's factors like these that make your thread title doubly true - there's too many influences beyond the champion strength itself.

turtlecoon1 votes

Overall, I would agree with you to an extent. Winrate alone cannot function as an end-all-be-all statistic to draw solid conclusions from. It is, however, good enough to use to speculate.

CupcakeTrap1 votes

{quoted}

Overall, I would agree with you to an extent. Winrate alone cannot function as an end-all-be-all statistic to draw solid conclusions from. It is, however, good enough to use to speculate.

It shows what it shows. In this case, the initial dive in Veigar's winrate shows that the nerfs really hurt him relative to how he used to fare. It's not clear if his subsequently increasing winrate reflects people "adapting to the changes" or just the system adapting to all these losses. To test that theory, you'd want to look at changes in MMR for Summoners who play Veigar exclusively or almost exclusively. If Dabox was Challenger before, and now is in Diamond IV, that's a sign that it was indeed a major nerf. (As far as I know, Dabox isn't playing Veigar anymore; that was just a hypothetical.)

turtlecoon1 votes

{quoted}

It shows what it shows. In this case, the initial dive in Veigar's winrate shows that the nerfs really hurt him relative to how he used to fare. It's not clear if his subsequently increasing winrate reflects people "adapting to the changes" or just the system adapting to all these losses. To test that theory, you'd want to look at changes in MMR for Summoners who play Veigar exclusively or almost exclusively. If Dabox was Challenger before, and now is in Diamond IV, that's a sign that it was indeed a major nerf. (As far as I know, Dabox isn't playing Veigar anymore; that was just a hypothetical.)

We're pretty much saying the same thing. You can speculate, but you can't know.

But I would argue, again, that you're losing a lot of relevant information while trying to summarize things.

If a champion is significantly changed, it'd be reasonable to expect a small drop in ELO in the summoners that exclusively play that champion as they take time to acclimate to the changes. So you'd look at the long-term instead. Valid. The problem with that? If you're looking at the long-term change in a player's ELO, the individual player's skill level itself is very likely to rise. You'd have to have static machines playing the champion if you want to use this kind of guage.

CupcakeTrap1 votes

{quoted}

We're pretty much saying the same thing. You can speculate, but you can't know.

But I would argue, again, that you're losing a lot of relevant information while trying to summarize things.

If a champion is significantly changed, it'd be reasonable to expect a small drop in ELO in the summoners that exclusively play that champion as they take time to acclimate to the changes. So you'd look at the long-term instead. Valid. The problem with that? If you're looking at the long-term change in a player's ELO, the individual player's skill level itself is very likely to rise. You'd have to have static machines playing the champion if you want to use this kind of guage.

Indeed. The usual saying is "The thing about LoL is…matchmaker guarantees you lose half your matches. Don't go crazy over it." But actually, that's not quite accurate; people are expected to improve over time.

It's a complex statistical puzzle, but I know Riot has not only an amazing dataset but a lot of PhDs with experience in complex statistical analysis. I'd be curious to see what they've come up with. A Red mentioned once that they do have "winrate over time" graphs, and use those in setting the "Champion Difficulty" rating that appears in Champion profiles. (Odd finding: Ryze has a steeper winrate-over-time graph than Varus.)

Alljoy1 votes

I think I'm just glad I don't have to deal with him in bot lane anymore.

Spacefight0r1 votes

Going to back this up a bit: What makes you think Veigar is only played by mains? What is your basis for this claim?

CupcakeTrap1 votes

{quoted}

Going to back this up a bit: What makes you think Veigar is only played by mains? What is your basis for this claim?

Anecdotally, he's referred to as a niche Champion. I've never heard someone go, "hey, I'll play Veigar this match, that'll be fun." Every time I've seen someone play Veigar, and talked with them about it, they've indicated that they're a Veigar main.

I could indeed be wrong on this assumption. I'd like to see the data either way. I'm not sure if we have a ready source of such data.

I'm also unsure about how many players overall are "mains" (or "mainers", I guess). I would be curious to know that. To the extent that most League players play a broad range of Champions, winrate becomes a more reasonable metric for overall Champion strength.

Volt Cruelerz1 votes

Perhaps something like this would be better?

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