Revert Zac

Moody P·Feb 3, 2019·49 votes·14,610 views

This rework is dumb and he isn't fun. And he's been D tier for the better part of a year.

Can I at least have the old R back?

61 Comments

0 HogapuFeb 3, 201923 votes

Me agreeing with a Moody P post, must mean something

More seriously, Zac wasn't an issue in the first place.. he didn't need a rework anyway

Moody PFeb 3, 201910 votes

idk what you're doing wrong if you haven't already been agreeing with me but at least you understand the truth now

OHminusFeb 4, 201913 votes

"disagree with me = wrong"

is the vibe i'm getting from this comment

AirKingNeoFeb 4, 20193 votes

yeah but that's typically true. This guy is always right pretty much.

Frog goes mooFeb 4, 20193 votes

[deleted]

Z3SleeperFeb 4, 20192 votes

50% right, 50% wrong.

Divers and Skirmishers are the unreasonably strong ones. Juggernauts share their DPS and boast higher durability (and sustain) but come nowhere their their burst damage, CC and mobility (and many of them heavily out-DPS juggs as well).

If he was disagreeing on the jugg thing, I agree with him. If he was disagreeing on fighters, then I disagree.

Moody PFeb 4, 20191 votes

I would disagree on higher durability in current game. Most divers have strong damage mitigation or complete negation whereas juggernaut is mostly sustain, which can be reduced heavily for cheap gold investment.

Juggernauts also rely more on resistances and tank items than divers usually, and I don't think I need to talk at length about how strong those items are right now

Z3SleeperFeb 4, 20191 votes

Yeah i meant more to include common itemization trends as well, juggs are more (sustainably?) durable. Dunno how to word that.

But yeah, divers/skirmishers typically have massively powerful short duration damage mitigation (jax R is an exception).

So sadly yeah, in many situations divers/skirmishers end up being “tankier” than a juggernaut.

Really wish Riot would address how power-creeped, mobility-creeped and durability-creeped many divers and skirmishers are.

Moody PFeb 5, 20191 votes

I agree buff juggernauts

Z3SleeperFeb 5, 20191 votes

Haha nah I think they're fine. Moreso trim those traits off outlier divers/skirmishers instead of slightly lowering their numbers while keeping all of it intact. Irelia, Jax, Camille, Yasuo. Basically all the champs that come up in Boards complaints a lot.

They just shouldn't have the same access or benefit from Fighter itemization as Juggernauts do. As it stands, the base stats of juggs, divers and skirmishers are all nearly the same, meaning juggs don't get anymore benefit from a Steraks than an Irelia or Yasuo would (especially with the bAD change) and most of the time get even less benefit due to those skirmishers/divers having better sustain/durability and DPS to simply out-tank and out-pace a juggernaut's damage while maintaining absurd mobility.

SpaghettiVaseFeb 4, 20192 votes

{quoted}

"disagree with me = wrong"

is the vibe i'm getting from this comment

That’s 90% of the boards

Warlord RhinarkFeb 4, 20191 votes

{quoted}

"disagree with me = wrong"

is the vibe i'm getting from this comment

He's right though.

Moody PFeb 4, 20193 votes

When will Boards learn to accept the Moody Truth?

BârdFeb 4, 201910 votes

The rework is great, and his new abilities are hella fun.

He needs some love, not a revert.

Weak =/= shit design. I'm surprised that you, the guy who constantly advocates for Volibear, doesn't see that.

Passive

Revival Bloblets need to be tankier. The way they are was fine back when Zac came out, but damage is high enough now that he won't revive in a teamfight unless a splitpusher uses TP on him. Options include...

Bloblets get 100% of Zac's armor and MR (currently 50%)
Bloblets get 25% of Zac's HP apiece (currently 12%)
Bloblets are 50% resistant to AOE.

Also, his healing blobs shouldn't fly towards enemy champions. This was a nerf from way back in the day that just isn't necessary anymore. Zac's blobs should use the same system as Draven's axes; they fly to wherever you're walking.

Let Zac reactivate to tug the target towards himself, or have him slam the target into the ground if he attacks the same one twice. Just make it better when isolated.

Give the spell something that makes it feel worth ranking up. Options include...

Making its CDR on blob pickup scale with rank, maybe have it apply to other basic abilities.
Having it apply some sort of stacking debuff (A slow or MR reduction would be cool).

Also, give back the AP ratio. Removing that was dumb.

Crowd Control, with the exception of airborne, shouldn't stop Zac mid-E.

It feels really dumb to stop in mid-air because you passed over a Shaco box.

Have champions standing directly on top of Zac during the charge-up be grounded.

Lower its damage significantly to make up for all the power added elsewhere in the kit.

Moody PFeb 4, 20193 votes

lol'ing at "remove his counter play across the board" being your idea

Sir SaltarinFeb 4, 20191 votes

No, the rework was terrible and he cant be buffed with this kit.

Old Zac was balanced easier because he needed to land his E to have cc now he can fail and still fk you with his braindead Q not to mention that his ultimate making him immune to cc makes him even safer.

Let Zac reactivate to tug the target towards himself, or have him slam the target into the ground if he attacks the same one twice. Just make it better when isolated.

Just this change would break him.

Z3SleeperFeb 4, 20192 votes

Comin in with some reasonable feedback.

Passive is definitely on the weaker side later in the game, but buffing Bloblet durability by over 200% and making them even more resistant to AoE is too much.

Instead, I think we can just settle on this:

Bloblet Health: ~~12%~~ ==> 11.5 - 25% (based on level) of Zac's maximum health (+0.75% per level)

Big no from me here. Having him tied to needing another nearby unit adds a ton of skill expression to his kit in essentially the opposite fashion of Kha'Zix. There's very rarely a situation where another target isn't nearby anyway.

I also think Q is too reliable to begin with and doesn’t need even more reliability.

Stacking debuff is a no from me dawg. CDR on blob pickup already kinda exists (lower W cooldown = higher % of the cd refunded by each blob)

I actually think his W is fine as is as it exists to allow constant use of his passive while also being a decent DPS tool. The damage could definitely use a little love for later ranks which would give you more of a reason to level it up as well. Just a minor buff though, no Galio level buffs.

The AP ratio though, that can come back.

Agreed, strange that it's stopped by literally anything.

Grounding sounds good. I think the damage is fine though. It doesn't do too much to begin with.

However!

If this were to happen I think the slow would need to be reduced or outright removed so as to not make it impossible to escape from. I think cutting it down to 20% at all levels would suffice. But if it just proves too oppressive, the slow can always just be removed entirely in favor of grounding.

Edit: possibly an increase in charge time if it’s still too oppressive after the slow removal.

Sir SaltarinFeb 4, 20193 votes

Zac R with grounded would make me want to unninstall as someome who plays immobile adcs because I wouldn't even be able to flash it

Anti mobility mechanics more often than not can be more punishing to immobile champs

Z3SleeperFeb 4, 20191 votes

Which is why I suggest a reduced or removed slow, so that you can simply walk out if he fails to CC you prior to using it.

Possibly even a slight increase in channel time needed (say ~0.25s).

Basically make it work when it should work and make it not work when the user f!$@s up or the enemy outplays it.

RisenFromTheAshFeb 5, 20191 votes

{quoted}

The rework is great, and his new abilities are hella fun.

He needs some love, not a revert.

Weak =/= shit design. I'm surprised that you, the guy who constantly advocates for Volibear, doesn't see that.

Passive

Revival Bloblets need to be tankier. The way they are was fine back when Zac came out, but damage is high enough now that he won't revive in a teamfight unless a splitpusher uses TP on him. Options include...

Bloblets get 100% of Zac's armor and MR (currently 50%)

Bloblets get 25% of Zac's HP apiece (currently 12%)

Bloblets are 50% resistant to AOE.

Also, his healing blobs shouldn't fly towards enemy champions. This was a nerf from way back in the day that just isn't necessary anymore. Zac's blobs should use the same system as Draven's axes; they fly to wherever you're walking.

Q

Let Zac reactivate to tug the target towards himself, or have him slam the target into the ground if he attacks the same one twice. Just make it better when isolated.

W

Give the spell something that makes it feel worth ranking up. Options include...

Making its CDR on blob pickup scale with rank, maybe have it apply to other basic abilities.

Having it apply some sort of stacking debuff (A slow or MR reduction would be cool).

Also, give back the AP ratio. Removing that was dumb.

E

Crowd Control, with the exception of airborne, shouldn't stop Zac mid-E.

It feels really dumb to stop in mid-air because you passed over a Shaco box.

R

Have champions standing directly on top of Zac during the charge-up be grounded.

Lower its damage significantly to make up for all the power added elsewhere in the kit.

You should make a full post in Concepts n creations, these are good ideas! This would make me play Zac waaaaaaay more. I do like his old ult a lot more than his current tbh.

Abibyama IIFeb 3, 20198 votes

Okay, but keep the current Q

Moody PFeb 4, 20193 votes

No.

Sir SaltarinFeb 4, 20192 votes

I love how ppl doesn't realize that his current Q is the main reason why he's unbalanced, old needed to land the E at least to gank you but this one can fail and it and still cc' you with Q.

No more 1800 range jump Zac coming from fog of war to miss it and still dont be punished as he should as long as he keeps his current Q he cant be buffed.

Abibyama IIFeb 4, 20191 votes

Idc his Q is fun

Sir SaltarinFeb 4, 20191 votes

For you

Abibyama IIFeb 4, 20192 votes

But mom :(

Sir SaltarinFeb 4, 20192 votes

His Q is the main unbalance issue, and why he cant be buffed.

Old Zac needed to land his jump, current one doesn't give a fk because he still has the Q cc.

Timethief49Feb 3, 20193 votes

I prefer Something someone posted sometime ago. Zac is supposed to be flexible, right? Why Not make it a start of game option to decide between old and new one? Old was a Lot better when played top and new one imo is better in the jungle due to his q.

Horse GrenadesFeb 4, 20192 votes

I disagree with you on here consistently.

This is the first thing I have 100% agree with you on!

Pandemic PunchFeb 4, 20192 votes

Revert zac, shen, sejuani, soraka, taric, mordekaiser

bluefire mark 2Feb 4, 20192 votes

Revert mord? But he is getting a full VGU soon.

ﬂooFeb 4, 20193 votes

Revert Soraka wat

Moody PFeb 4, 20192 votes

He's correct. Spam heal Soraka is one of the most toxic champions in the game

InfernapeFeb 4, 20191 votes

Basically a ranged Mundo in that sense. Except Grievous Wounds fucks her over more than him.

Moody PFeb 4, 20191 votes

at least Mundo was kinda fine until they balanced him around Grievous (100% heal LMAO)

Soraka basically forces GW to exist, alongside Vlad

ﬂooFeb 4, 20192 votes

Ah yes, I'm sure that she should be reverted to have only point and click or autotarget abilities in her kit, that seems way healthier than her current Q you can actively dodge and limit her heal. In lane her heal is tiny + she sacrafices her own hp. Despite all that her old Q was an AOE around herself, which should not have a place in an enchanter kit. She's not supposed to stand inside the enemy team.

Z3SleeperFeb 4, 20191 votes

Idk what you mean. Soraka's massive ranged instantaneous PBAoE MR reducing Q and click target silence nuke were perfectly healthy, especially in mid lane.

AP Yi's "press Q for penta" design was healthy too. They should bring that back.

Moody PFeb 4, 20191 votes

Why are you arguing healthy and not healthier? Soraka was healthier pre rework. That does not mean she was healthy

New Soraka doesn't care about Q at all because she maxes E (which is still an unavoidable nuke and silence btw) and actively avoids interaction. Old Soraka Q encouraged risk taking and opened her up to being engaged on if she was reckless about it.

The only real issue with old Soraka is that she literally could not OOM because of her self refund on E. New Soraka has been gutted four or five times and still manages to creep her way back into relevance. No, she isn't remotely a healthy or well designed champion. Spam healing is a ridiculous idea in a MOBA

BârdFeb 4, 20191 votes

I'd say a partial revert would be good for Raka.

Keep the new passive and E.
Revert her Q and W.

The P/E changes were positive.

The Q/W changes didn't really fix her gameplay issues, they just made her less fun.

dome025Feb 4, 20192 votes

First time I actually support one of your threads even though you´re still arrogant in this thread (honestly I don´t know why mods tolerate some of your comments since they add nothing relevant and just encourages to avoid boards or at least your thread).

Now back to topic. New Zac feels way clunkier and more boring than old Zac, while being harder to balance between solo and pro play.

His old ult was already teamfight defining and never felt like a more chaotic Wukong ult which they claimed (perhaps they sound similar on paper yet in execution there was never a situation where I would have thought something along the lines of "Oh what a boring Wukong ult Zac has"). His new ult is less exciting and less creative while giving him to much power. It feels like Zac is just lifeless unlike his old ult. And it also felt better in situations in which he was alone (easier to escape due to knocking back enemies while simultaneously moving around.

Now to his Q. The reasons behind the rework of his Q were legit. It lacked to deliver the fantasy of it and it encouraged thoughtless spamming of it. Yet the old Q felt way more fluid and again more fun. Also the new Q makes his ganks unreasonable stronger and more reliable, he already can gank from kilometres away so why should he have one more hard cc spell which he can´t screw up (screw up in a sense that if he doesn´t execute well he won´t get meaningfully punished for it like knocking the enemy into safety).

I would say they should revert his ult and rework his Q based on his old Q (should feel fluid and fun again).

Perhaps something like this: New Q: After briefly (short delay) stretching his arm backwards Zac throws a punch at the targeted direction dealing X magic damage and knocking enemies back. After reaching maximum distance he changes the shape of his fist (another short delay) and knocks enemies to him dealing x magic damage.

A Q like this would deliver on the fantasy of a powerful punch of a slime man and would perhaps still feel fluid and fun while discouraging mindless spamming of it and adding some skill expression (you can screw up with it knocking enemy carries into safety).

JonnyBoyyFeb 4, 20192 votes

this is the first time i'm agreeing with you. They must revert it, at least his old R. I miss it.

ModAcademy KaynFeb 4, 20191 votes

No thanks. I'd much rather not have the old Zac, who despite missing his E, gets to instantly Ult on me for effectively the same disruption.

Sir SaltarinFeb 4, 20191 votes

And this one that can miss E and still cc you with Q on a basic skill is better?

Current Zac is way more cancer and he's less punished for missing E.

ModAcademy KaynFeb 4, 20191 votes

I can dodge a Q, so?

dome025Feb 4, 20192 votes

But can you dodge an autoattack?

KadexeFeb 4, 20191 votes

I think he's just overloaded with CC, leaving him with uncomfortably low damage to compensate. Also that E-R combo (supplemented with Q to prevent enemies from escaping) just devours his power budget. Needs more nerfs to his Q CC, I think that might fix him and make room for more damage.

Sire HippingtonFeb 4, 20191 votes

And while we're at it, finaly revert or atleast work on skarner...it's been atleast 4 patches in a row with him haveing to little games to even show up on half the data sides...