Oh look my favorite champion just got gutted for no reason, guess i cant play them for 2-3 months. Seems like a good way to balance and manage your game.
I thought Riot employed people to actually test changes, but its increasingly apparent that they dont know what they are doing.
Mandang020 votesMy level of sympathy depends greatly on which champion you're referring to. For Veigar, you have my condolences. For Azir/Kass/anyone who was top-10-banned, not so much. The 4 patches they'll have to wait before being returned to top tier are much shorter than the months and years other champs wait in their shadow.
Sorry if I jumped down your throat and your champ was actually undeserving of a nerf, but it's getting ridiculous to see Kassadin mains try to play the martyr after they've been in the sun for the last year+.
Xyrne8 votesKassadin's been an obnoxious buttmuncher for much of the 4 years I've been playing this game. I'm not sad to see him in the dumpster for once. He's earned it.
Pika31016 votes
7 months and still no revert.
A Miss Fortune1 votesI'm an AP Sona main, at the moment I notice no difference to her despite her being nerfed slightly across many patches.
The day that her passive did 10% less damage I played a game as Sona mid and went 34 kills and 1 death.
But yeah if they do kill Sona like they did Azir who I previously mained or Kassadin and Veigar who I thought were pretty cool I might quit the game since I don't see a problem with Sona. She has strengths and weaknesses, especially those who are far more defined especially than problems like Katarina, Ahri, Lee Sin, Vi, Jarvan, etc.
It Is I Emoto3 votesWell, the only issue i have is that her W and E auras have no real use when played not as AP sona :P it's just.. well, you know, the shield duration is too short, her heal heals not enough at early game, her E is an one-point wonder with nothing worth to actually max it first and the cooldowns on her abilities are absurdly long.
A Miss Fortune2 votesAgreed, Sona is not fit for the support role just due to how irrelevant her heal and speed buff is. Like maybe once in a while you might be able to save an ally from a low AP Teemo shroom with the shield, or maybe you could catch up to an enemy with your speed buff, but other than that it's really not worth it.
Sona could use sort of a buff to the W just so it's more of an actual heal.
Sassmast3r1 votesAlthough I agree for the most part, she can still support for one reason - Her Q. I cannot tell you how many times I have wanted to throw my computer out of the window because of a Sona who walks 5 miles forward, casts her Q, and then E's away. Literally this is the ONLY thing that makes her a viable support if you were to ask me.
A Miss Fortune2 votesYeah, I know the feeling. Though it helps that I've played so many games with Sona that I know the range by heart.
To counter Sona, poke her. Sona is the queen of poking but you could force her at early levels to waste her mana with her heal, which drains her mana very rapidly. With no mana she can't really do much really lol.
And what's up with all of these dislikes. I feel like players just take a glance at comments and if the person doesn't 100% agree with their views regardless of the evidence they use then they just downvote.
Pika3104 votesTo counter Sona, poke her. Sona is the queen of poking but you could force her at early levels to waste her mana with her heal, which drains her mana very rapidly. With no mana she can't really do much really lol.
Pre-4.13 Sona used to be the queen of poking. Now, not so much. As a matter-of-fact, Morgana, Nami and Karma all consistently do 2 to 3 times as much damage as Sona can put out. Of course, Morg and Karma rely on easy-to-hit skillshots, but that aside Nami outdamages Sona 2 to 1 with just her 2 point/click abilities.
Yes, as the 2nd squishiest champion in the game, just poke Sona when she walks up to you. Each of an ADC's AAs outdamages Sona's full combo. After you hit her twice and she drops to half HP, she'll be forced to spam cookies and W, but W is both the weakest and most mana-expensive heal in the entire game. Since Sona has considerably low base mana, which is not compensated for with mana/lvl, just two casts will force her OoM and only heal about a quarter of her HP bar.
Zone of Endless3 votesYeah, I know the feeling. Though it helps that I've played so many games with Sona that I know the range by heart.
To counter Sona, poke her. Sona is the queen of poking but you could force her at early levels to waste her mana with her heal, which drains her mana very rapidly. With no mana she can't really do much really lol.
And what's up with all of these dislikes. I feel like players just take a glance at comments and if the person doesn't 100% agree with their views regardless of the evidence they use then they just downvote.
you don't even have to poke Sona to counter her. You just walk up to her and AA her a few time.
Her damage is so abysmal now coupled with low base health is just asking to lose. Thresh level 1 E can let him do the same amount of damage as Sona with one AA while she has to combo everything to do the same. On top of that Thresh's E is a CC. Then he can easily sustain Sona's poke through relic shield.
I don't get why he has extra damage when he already brings so much CC in lane.
Pika3104 votesAt a pathetically low 40 base damage, Sona has the lowest amongst the ENTIRE support class, tied with only 3 other spells. Those being: Leona's Q and Taric's E and W. IF you want to get the full use out Hymn instead of the awful 40 base at a meh 700 range, you have to mozy up into her AA range of 550, which will always put you into harass range as that's only average range for ADCs. Even then, you're still only getting 60 total damage, when most countless other supports do higher amounts on their spells at much greater ranges. A lot of which being granted additional effects, oft including hard CC.
Matter-of-factly, Sona has the worst damage output of the entire support class, with sole exception to MAYBE Braum.
A Miss Fortune1 votesIt's because people simply don't know how to play Sona. She has a lot of stuff to her and to actually be able to carry/win in mid lane you need to know everything to her. Easily one of the most versatile champion in the game with her passive.
Most professional players probably don't know that every time Sona Q's, her and everyone around her has extra damage to their next auto attack.
After Sona gets Lich Bane she hits a major power spike similar to Irelia and Sheen or just Trinity Force in general.
But yeah, AP Sona isn't outdamaged by Morgana/Taric/Leona and I've played enough games with Sona (and even against Morganas in mid lane) to know that.
At low levels it's easy to kill Sona because she has almost as much health as a minion though she does have sustain and if played right it's not hard to get kills at about level 3 - 4. I've personally obtained kills at level 1 against people such as Morgana, Vel'Koz, Leblanc, Akali, Katarina, and Yasuo.
Though I'm sure another reason why AP Sona, once you know how to play her is so effective is because people typically have no clue to counter a girl with a floating etwahl (or harp) that just pokes you down until you recall lol.
tl;dr Sona has a really high damage output but to be effective with her you need to master her. I guess it's sort of like Kassadin? I haven't played him much but it wasn't the easiest Akali--mode champion in the game and since I believe I played around 120 games as Sona Support before even trying mid lane it was easier. (besides one time I had to switch lanes and go against a Silver ranked Lee Sin while I was still level 15)
Pika3102 votesBut yeah, AP Sona isn't outdamaged by Morgana/Taric/Leona and I've played enough games with Sona (and even against Morganas in mid lane) to know that.
Sona: 37.8 + 40 + 20 = 97.8 Base Damage 28% + 50% + 20% = 98% AP
Morgana: 80 + 120 or 180 = 200 or 260 Base Damage 90% + 110 or 165% = 200 or 255% AP
Taric: **>**18.36 + 40 + 40 or 80 = **>**98.36 or **>**138.36 Base Damage 80% Armor + 20 or 40% AP
Leona: 105 + 40 + 60 + 60 = 265 Base Damage 30% + 40% + 40% = 110% AP
In conclusion, Leona and Morgana outdamage Sona by more than 2 to 1, if not almost 3 to 1, whilst Leona has slightly better AP scaling and Morg blatantly outscales Sona by over double. Taric only slightly outdamages Sona with bases, but his scaling is almost all in armor making it incomparable to Sona's scaling. Since all 4 of these champions can build Sheen/Lich Bane, there's no point including that number in the calculations, other than to point out that Sona has the lowest base AD out of this group.
I'd appreciate it if you cease your habitual lying and blatant propagandizing of these forums with your selective disinformation. Stop assuming that nobody is going to take the time to disprove your falsities.
A Miss Fortune1 votesBase damage doesn't really dictate everything. I played Attack-Damage Lulu for example and I could still carry the game despite Lulu CLEARLY not being an AD champion.
If you're going to take a champions power from their base stats and their scaling then why bother arguing because champions like Irelia for example become viable in the game because of certain items. Sure Irelia is decent though without Sheen/Trinity Force she would probably best fit as a simple tank. Sona with Lich Bane is sort of an example, though she still does plenty of damage without it.
I don't know why people are trying to debate this. Either just stupid or too lazy to play Sona mid lane WITH a lich bane. Especially when you're trying to debate with a champion's base stats and pretend as if those mean you can only play certain champs certain ways and it determines how powerful each champion is completely.
Also if each of these supports dueled Sona in mid lane role.
Leona is melee with okay ranged abilities. She's tanky and not mobile though has engagements.
Taric is not mobile and is melee and focuses more on armor than magic resistance.
Morgana is decent, though her main ability is a skillshot on a fair cooldown.
Sona has range, some mobility, sustain (which Morgana sort of has, the spellvamp) and her main attacks are not skillshots.
Sona also easily out-damages any of these supports with a Lich Bane and is more viable in mid and even top lane than these common supports.
Pika3101 votesSona also easily out-damages any of these supports with a Lich Bane and is more viable in mid and even top lane than these common supports.
That completely explains why Sona is being first-picked in many professional games as a flex pick that can be played into all 3 roles. Oh wait, that would be Morgana.
Oh and top-lane Taric totes isn't a thing or anything like that.
Lich Bane: After using a spell, your next attack does 75% of your Base AD + 50% of your AP as magic damage.
Thus, if you build the exact same items on all 4 of these champions with the exact same runes and masteries, their AP would be identical and the only difference would lie in their base AD. Sona has the lowest, 5 less than Morgana and both Taric and Leona are even higher than that. As a matter-of-fact, Lich Bane does the least damage on Sona out of these four.
Pretending that any items in the game can only built on specific champions is intentionally misleading. Your posts are no less propaganda than the excuses Riot gives for refusing to nerf Zed and Lee Sin.
(Sole exceptions going to Hurricane and Hydra, of course)
TheShinx1 votesNerfed? You forget the Giant increase to her Ranges? Sona has the highest ranges of any support in the game.
A Miss Fortune1 votesSona isn't really made to be a support and I don't know why people play her as a support since she excels and goes beyond what most other champions can do in top and mid lane. So yeah, having good range is nice.
TheShinx2 votesExcept for a heal, stun, Shield, Speed boost and Attack boost. So by that theory Nami would destroy mid lane. Just because someone has the potential doesn't mean they can. May look good on paper, but in practice isn't. I know I tried Nami mid. Failed. Same with sona.
A Miss Fortune1 votesNami Mid Lane is very powerful actually. Sustain, cc, damage. But she doesn't have the lc$-flashy-plays so she's just used as a support.
Sona's heal isn't that great unless it's max'ed and the shield goes away almost instantly. Most Sona players haven't mastered it and probably won't, how you let your ADC take damage and then as they get poked again you heal so that way you shield against the incoming poke while healing up the other pokes.
Sona Mid is extremely powerful too. So far the best game I have was 34 kills and 1 death, but I've played a lot of games going something like 24 kills, 5 deaths. I've also played Sona Top and Sona APC, and even Sona Top Support. Sona is just viable for everything except Jungle due to her versatility and nice burst damage. With enough experience Sona can 1v1 most mid laners with Lich Bane and maybe a Void Staff or Morellnomicon (did I spell that right).
If you don't believe me then check out some some diamond and challenger tier plays who do main and play AP Sona Mid. If you can carry yourself to Diamond with AP Sona I'm sure she's viable for Normals at the least.
Mathbalnase1 votes[{quoted}](name=Five Badgers,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=TzNFJZGF,comment-id=00030000000100000000,timestamp=2015-03-01T10:25:56.998+0000) Just because someone has the potential doesn't mean they can
Derp.
Audiomancy7 votesExcept for Leona, Nami, Thresh, Blitzcrank, Zyra...
TheShinx1 votesSona range kit: Q: 825, W: 1000, E: 360, R: 900. Lets compare shall we?
Leona: Q: Auto attack range (Melee), W: 450, E: 875, R: 1200 So no.
Nami: Q: 875, W: 725, E: 800, R: 2750....
Audiomancy5 votesNotice how Leona's R outranges Crescendo? Zenith Blade almost outranges it too as well as her Q. So yes.
Nami. Really? Aqua Prison, 25 less range than Crescendo. 1.5 second stun on a 15 or so CD. You're also ignoring the bounce range of W and the fact that E is cast on an ally. Sona can add on-hit effects to allies too. Shame she needs to be within 350 range of them.
And then there's this.
R: 2750...
I'm not even going to comment on this one.
Pika3104 votesThis is sarcasm I have to assume, right? They lowered the range on 3 of her abilities by 650 units apiece: Hymn and Aria's team effects and Celerity's active. Hymn's bolts and Aria's heal are identical range-wise, whilst Celerity's aura was just removed outright with no replacement.
Sona literally has the shortest spell-range amongst the entire mage-support class with 3 abilities sitting at 350 units each. No other mage-support in the game has an ability with less than 500 range.
TheShinx1 votesNot entirely no. She in her current build can still poke more then her fair share of champs around.
Yes she was "Nerfed" but she still has one of if not the longest ranged "skillshots" of any support. I say skillshot but Q is coded to go for champs over minions if in range. Which is 825 Units. None of her "useful" skills is below 800 range so yeah.
These are her ranges right now according to the Official League site. http://gameinfo.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/game-info/champions/sona/
Q: 825 W: 1000 E: 360 R: 900
The only ability below 500 is her movement speed.
Also not sure where you got your facts from. a few have a skill below 500 range. So yeah.
Pika3104 votesQ: 825
The League site lists Hymn's range incorrectly, as well as countless other champions' kits. The "official" site is less reliable and more misleading than the Wikia, which is also incorrect on many pages.
Sona's actual Q range is 700, this is identical to its original range, but for a time it was nerfed to 650 and then 550.
E: 360
Sona's old Celerity used to have an active range of 1000, this is down by an entire 650 units, 65%. Celerity's aura has been removed completely, you could say this is a range nerf of >100% if you wish.
Also not sure where you got your facts from. a few have a skill below 500 range. So yeah.
I got my facts from personally checking the spell ranges of every mage-support in the game. There is only 1 spell with 500 range, then every other has more, most sitting ~850 range. The fact that Sona is forced to have THREE spells that are at 350 whilst the 2nd lowest is 43% longer, is not only absurd, but transparently prejudiced against Sona.
Penguin Eclipse2 votes
7 months and still no revert.
It sucks to be Sona but she is still in far better shape after her nerfs than Elise, Syndra, Azir, etc.
Pika3103 votesAt least all 3 of them have pre-6 hard CC. Sona does not and is the only support in the entire game that doesn't now that Zilean does. With exception to Nunu, which I've seen support MAYBE once in the past year.
Penguin Eclipse1 votesAt least all 3 of them have pre-6 hard CC. Sona does not and is the only support in the entire game that doesn't now that Zilean does. With exception to Nunu, which I've seen support MAYBE once in the past year.
Yeah well boo hoo. Until her winrate falls to consistently below 45% you have nothing to complain about.
Emmy Cha0s5 votesLol, you know someone is unqualified to discuss the issue and have already lost when they've run out of proper excuses and have to fall back on win-rates. The most illogical and weakest amongst all excuses.
Penguin Eclipse1 votes[{quoted}](name=Emmy Cha0s,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=TzNFJZGF,comment-id=00030001000000000000,timestamp=2015-03-01T02:46:06.077+0000)
Lol, you know someone is unqualified to discuss the issue and have already lost when they've run out of proper excuses and have to fall back on win-rates. The most illogical and weakest amongst all excuses.
On the contrary I have already won and this whole discussion is pointless. Riot has already made it crystal clear the Sona nerfs were not unnecessary and they will not remove them. Syndra, Elise, Azir, etc? Riot has acknowledged all of them because their winrate is so shitty they are literally making their teams lose.
You Sona fanatics really are one of the most toxic groups on this forum and have absolutely no concept of balance or healthy gameplay.
A Miss Fortune1 votesNot necessarily.
Azir, Kassadin, Veigar, and Urgot have all considerabely low winrates and you can see quite obviously that they're not that good. I think Azir at one point had a 36% win rate which is insanely low.
Win rate doesn't always determine how strong a champion is, but if it's very low or very high (like Zyra's 60% win rate on release) then the champion is underpowered or overpowered.
A Miss Fortune1 votesMyself and most other Sona mains I know and have talked to don't see a large difference to her.
There's also a reason why she still has a high win rate lol.
Pika3102 votesToxic people like you are the reason League isn't allowed to have nice things.
Trexx2k9 votesThis seems to be how they work nowadays. I've noticed they only really care about what the LCS enjoys playing over what is fun for others. Over the last few months I've lost every one of my mid lane mains. They keep nerfing rather than buffing the things that nobody plays.
Basidiomycota8 votesRiot has never had a clue to balance this is the icing on the cake for failures
Basidiomycota2 votesRiot has never had a clue to balance this is the icing on the cake for failures
thats because riot doesnt balance they changed the meta by killing old champs and releasing new ones
Are5 votesRIP in peace
The Red Warden2 votesFizz is still playable unlike Elise
insaiyanbacca1 votesi can still play akali or syndra just fine
Miku Lv995 votesThen tbh that Sona is very bad since she wasted mana on e early game. Just buy enough pots to sustain until she runs out of mana and then she's not very useful. Or just get some ganks since she has no good escapes.
And Darius hasn't waited the longest of anyone. That would be Urgot. He's been useless since well before I ever played this game.
BetaDude403 votesWhile Veigar and other similar champions that were hurt in the most recent patches aren't going to go anywhere, the balance team actually seems to be doing something right.
http://www.surrenderat20.net/2015/02/227-pbe-update.html#more
They're actually doing something correct in the jungle by nerfing the top tier junglers (save for Golden Boy Lee Win, of course, ho ho) and buffing the lower tier tank junglers directly. Also, there's areally nice texture rebalance for Cho'gath in there.
I really, REALLY hope that they try reverting their previous changes on the PBE right now. If they remove the delay on Veigar's E and actually do something meaningful to Morde, I will forgive them (for now)
Lord Ðaríus2 votes 
RIP since patch 3.03 I think he waited longer than anyone else
Athenes Lulu1 votesAlso, DFG removal.
Two of my friends already stopped playing LoL entirely because of that. Find that pretty depressing. Then to see their mains nerfed to oblivion.
Let's see who Rito is going to gut next, I'm interested.
Immortal Strife1 votesGragas was my mid main, now he's a jungler...I feel your pain.
Thefriendlyorc1 votesAs a long time gragas Main, I still can't justify him in lane or jungle anymore. If I'm gonna tank top, I'll grab sion, bruiser mage, singed or rumble, mid? Swain, ziggs...jungle is rather be a handful of others. They put him in a weird spit and he just feels odd.
Lv16 Flaaffy1 votesTotally constructive. Good job.
Lord Redshanks1 votesVeigar was my favorite.... Not sure if you're talking about Kass or Bird-man though. If they had removed the particle effect from his stun, Vei would be fine.
DrMarshSwamp1 votesWhile I understand Riot mostly uses the PBE to test for bugs and stuff (by their own admission no less) I do feel that they really, really need to start paying attention to feedback on balance changes on the PBE rather that rush them to the live servers.
I mean Kassadin was gutted, everyone was crying about how he was gutted, there were hundreds of topics about his Riftwalk change leaving him too weak, yet they still pushed the changes to the Live servers and had the gall to act surprised that his winrate dropped so low so fast after they gutted him.
