Yes!! Twitch finally getting a nerf after being extremely OP for 1-2 years!!

Sayonara Shabi·Feb 28, 2018·70 votes·4,592 views

Not even a week later https://i.gyazo.com/a14448147dd36c885126ad67efb47a18.png

95 Comments

Fear the KaynFeb 28, 201848 votes

Riot has a serious fetish for hypercarry ADCs for some reason.

Destructor242Feb 28, 20185 votes

Nah they have a fetish for watching people get anally raped by hypercarry ADC's

Weiss GuertenaFeb 28, 201813 votes

For how obsessed they are with everything having counterplay they sure do put an awful lot of power in a class with high, 100% unavoidable damage dealt from safe range.

dunder killFeb 28, 201825 votes

So overall we got

20/35/50/65/80 ⇒20/30/40/50/60

Still nerfed

Nanuk PihoqahiakFeb 28, 201837 votes

It's the fact that Riot quickly addresses ADCs while dumpstering other characters for far less, and sometimes for entire seasons.

wildfox99Feb 28, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Nanuk Pihoqahiak,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=TnMA0BNy,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2018-02-28T10:38:09.731+0000)

It's the fact that Riot quickly addresses ADCs while dumpstering other characters for far less, and sometimes for entire seasons.

that's not true (/s) : Ahri Leblanc Rengar Viktor Fiddlesticks ....

Nanuk PihoqahiakMar 1, 20181 votes

Let's just recall the time for instance, where Sejuani was strong due to how broken Cinderhulk was in its first iteration. SHE got nerfed, Cinderulk then got vastly nerfed, and then they never undid her nerf. Even though before Cinderhulk, she barely saw play, and had a laughable winrate. This went on for about a season and a half.

ShablagooMar 1, 20181 votes

LOL we had to wait the entire season 7 to get the q rework on rengar, then you talk abot lb? She was reworked gutted and then left in the dumspter cmon man you know its true, the min a adc is deemed weak they get buffed, trist got buff the next patch after the little nerfs she got.

wildfox99Mar 1, 20181 votes

{quoted}

LOL we had to wait the entire season 7 to get the q rework on rengar, then you talk abot lb? She was reworked gutted and then left in the dumspter cmon man you know its true, the min a adc is deemed weak they get buffed, trist got buff the next patch after the little nerfs she got.

i was sarcastic,i meant exactly that,most of them went trash tier after getting overnerfed and we had to wait 1 or more seasons for having them buffed/reworked because when it's not an ADC "they have 100+ champions"

HäxelFeb 28, 20189 votes

Evelynn ? Shyvana ? even Zoe ? It still comes for riot about proplay. Like kog and espeicaly twitch see at the moment nearly no proplay and the nerfs hit them ahrder as intended so why is fixing them one or two patches later a bad thing? All this whataboutism anoys so .... [zombie-brand-facepalm]

Z3SleeperMar 1, 20181 votes

Whataboutism Sejauni?

Dumpstered and never seen in pro play again until a millenia later.

Whataboutism Renekton? Rarely seen in pro play ever since he fell off the Renekton bar.

HäxelMar 1, 20181 votes

Renekton saw proplay recently. Its jsut not his meta. Sejuani? You mean prerework Sejuani that just got nerfed out of competive season 5 during cinderhulkmeta where gragas and reksai still existed but then was still totaly fine for soloq? I don't remember Sejuani beeing excesivly weak.

LordForrestMar 1, 20181 votes

She wasn't excessively weak, she just couldn't compete with the sated devourer meta.

T4underboltFeb 28, 20185 votes

Still broken. Twitch damage didn't comes from e. He 3 shots whole teams by right clicking with ult

AIIanFeb 28, 20183 votes

{quoted}

Still broken. Twitch damage didn't comes from e. He 3 shots whole teams by right clicking with ult

I always max E first. It adds a surprising amount of burst to his trade, making him a threat even in laning phase. I think they're trying to reduce his early game power while keeping the late game power.

Dead flag bluesFeb 28, 20184 votes

{quoted}

So overall we got

20/35/50/65/80 ⇒20/30/40/50/60

Still nerfed

Twitch only uses his E during early game. Late game he just goes Q+R and right click the entire team to death. E damage are irrelevant, and if you want to chase someone in this case (if he's low), you just Q back and use your W.

big boi edriFeb 28, 20183 votes

It's almost like his E correlates to getting that late game power somehow... balance is such a confusing matter.

Colton147Feb 28, 20184 votes

Twitch was gutted and tossed into the dumpster - he is pretty much Jinx -tier of trash ADCs. He is badly in need of a revert/compensation buff.

48% win rate: http://na.op.gg/champion/twitch/statistics/adc

NoforyouFeb 28, 20189 votes

Still not as bad as Lucian or Jhin but since they aren't hypercarries they aren't looked at

EedatFeb 28, 20185 votes

Pretty sure Jhin has some decent buffs on the PBE and we all know Lucian fell victim to LC$ balancing

2nd ChanceFeb 28, 201828 votes

{quoted}

was gutted and tossed into the dumpster - he is pretty much -tier of trash ADCs. He is badly in need of a revert/compensation buff.

48% win rate: http://na.op.gg/champion/twitch/statistics/adc

When the blooming hell did a dang 48% win rate on a champion ever be considered as them being freaking gutted???

PoskeFeb 28, 20182 votes

not to mention thats 48% winrate against other ad carries... not vs other 110 champions

Not to mention none is playing twitch efficiently

#efficient way of playing twitch is going jungle and having a whore kayle/lulu toplane which lets you farm both top and jungle

As someone who has faced this strategy around 5 times by now. Trust me guys Had you faced it you would cry on boards asking every 5 seconds to nerf twitch

AirKingNeoMar 1, 20181 votes

Kayle X Yi was so good people are doing Kayle X Twitch

Wait a sec, they aren't.

PB4UAMEMar 1, 20181 votes

Except they actually are at higher Elos. It's just beginning to catch on, so the play rate isn't high yet, but it is happening. Plat plus he has a roughly ~20% role pick rate as a jungler. It's seen a massive winrate and playrate spike this last patch to get there, and interestingly enough, you can see the effect of picking Twitch with a Kayle or Lulu in Twitch having a vastly higher lategame (30-40+minute) winrate when those champions are on his team.

AirKingNeoMar 1, 20181 votes

Ok, now give me proof.

PoskeMar 1, 20181 votes

scroll my match history within last week. You ll find such game

AirKingNeoMar 1, 20181 votes

http://eune.op.gg/summoner/userName=Poske

After looking through the games Op.gg will show me, the last 7 days, you have not faced Twitch jungle once, let alone Kayle/Lulu top with it.

A single occurance, which hasn't even been proven, does not equal a trend.

PoskeMar 2, 20181 votes

Check 14 days

And I have seen it occur around 6 times since last 6 months

AirKingNeoMar 3, 20181 votes

Sounds like you're facing the same people.

PoskeMar 3, 20181 votes

Eh I doubt it. But then again I dont remember names

But Only duo players do this tho

PoskeMar 1, 20181 votes

It started happening 5 months ago

Chembaron YamadaFeb 28, 201813 votes

It's about context. Twitch' kit inherently makes him strong in solo queue, thanks to camouflage and strong team fighting.

If he falls to 48% winrate, then yes, it means Twitch is pretty much dumpstered. A while back, Riot made a similar statement about Jinx. She is a strong team fighter and teamfights are the most common strategy later in the game in solo queue. So if Jinx falls under 50% winrate, then it means something is wrong and she is clearly not able to do what she is supposed to do.

How to interpret 48% winrate depends on the kit of the champion. For some champions, it can mean they are ok. For others it means they are simply too weak.

2nd ChanceFeb 28, 20189 votes

{quoted}

It's about context. Twitch' kit inherently makes him strong in solo queue, thanks to camouflage and strong team fighting.

If he falls to 48% winrate, then yes, it means Twitch is pretty much dumpstered. A while back, Riot made a similar statement about Jinx. She is a strong team fighter and teamfights are the most common strategy later in the game in solo queue. So if Jinx falls under 50% winrate, then it means something is wrong and she is clearly not able to do what she is supposed to do.

How to interpret 48% winrate depends on the kit of the champion. For some champions, it can mean they are ok. For others it means they are simply too weak.

No it doesn't

At all

Chembaron YamadaFeb 28, 201812 votes

Any arguments supporting that statement? Different champions are balanced around different power levels, everybody knows that.

And this is just another case like Kog'Maw. They nerfed his damage in one patch, then the data told them that this nerf was too harsh. So they just go for the middle ground.

This doesn't take alot of effort. They just give him back half of the nerf and hope he ends up at 50% winrate.

Spank the FoxFeb 28, 20184 votes

Good counterpoints.

Teridax68Feb 28, 20181 votes

I personally take issue with the "X champion is strong in solo queue" argument, because it falls apart with just a little bit more thought, and ends up coming across as a crock of shit intended to justify certain picks having excessive win rates for the common player. Sure, if Twitch is strong in solo queue, and has a 48% win rate in solo queue, then he's garbage... in pro play. In the end, the only thing "being strong in solo queue" means is that a certain champion is strong_er_ in solo queue than in organized, competitive play. This means the champion should have their win rate in pro play equalized to match their solo queue performance, but it does not mean a champion needs to be kept at an excessively high win rate in solo queue. Conversely, if a champion is "strong in competitive", e.g. Shen or Jayce, that does not justify them being pick-or-ban in pro games or solo queue duds, and we have complained repeatedly when those champions have been kept weak specifically because of their pro performance. If a champion has such a high difference between their pro and solo queue performance, to me that just says their power across both formats needs to be brought closer together through targeted mechanical changes (e.g. by tuning certain levers that have more of an impact over one format over the other). It does not, however, justify to me that a champion should be deliberately kept too strong.

Chembaron YamadaFeb 28, 20182 votes

You would be right if they would start balancing Twitch around 52%+ winrate in solo queue. This buff is not "keeping him too strong", or do you really consider 50% winrate unfairly powerful?

48% winrate does not make him excessively strong in solo queue, neither does 50%, which seems to be the spot they are aiming for here.

And they already do the mechanical changes you mentioned, but it requires some serious cases. Look what happened to Zoe. The difference between the average Zoe player and highly skilled OTPs was a difference of 10%.

That is huge and a clear indicator that mechanical changes are needed, just changing numbers won't fix that issue. The difference between the average Twitch and the leaderboards is less than 6%.

It is possible to keep Twitch in a fair spot for both, the average and OTP, unlike Zoe. Zoe would have always been either too weak on average, or too strong for top performers.

These are the cases they do these mechanical changes for. Twitch doesn't need that. With that buff, he will average on 50%, which is fair. And he won't be overbearing on the best Twitch players either.

Teridax68Feb 28, 20182 votes

{quoted}

You would be right if they would start balancing Twitch around 52%+ winrate in solo queue. This buff is not "keeping him too strpng", or do you really consider 50% winrate unfairly powerful?

This completely misses the point I was making, which is that Twitch does not need to be balanced around a win rate well over 50% in solo queue, and instead needs to have his success in pro play (and pro play specifically) raised to match his solo queue performance. I obviously don't consider 50% to be an unfairly strong win rate, but I don't think 48% is all that bad either.

{quoted}

48% winrate does not make him excessively strong in solo queue, neither does 50%, which seems to be the spot they are aiming for here.

Sure, but Twitch was only just recently nerfed, and a significant contributing factor to his low win rate is the fact that there are multiple other marksmen out there who are significantly overperforming, and who are in direct competition with him. It is because of this that I do not support knee-jerk buffs to what has been the first real nerf Twitch has received in literally over a year.

{quoted}

And they already do the mechanical changes you mentioned, but it requires some serious cases. Look what happened to Zoe. The difference between the average Zoe player and highly skilled OTPs was a difference of 10%.

Zoe's changes were nerfs designed to affect her performance at all levels of play in order to make her less unhealthy, not to target her strength specifically in one competitive format over another, so it's not really relevant to this particular discussion. What's more, champions like Lee Sin and Alistar have received changes to equalize their win rates despite not being in a particularly dire state when that happened, so one wouldn't have to wait for Twitch to reach some arbitrarily high difference for him to receive similar adjustments. Regarding Twitch in particular, I don't really see how one can argue that he needs to be buffed to a >52% win rate just because "he's a solo queue champion", while also arguing that he also doesn't need those buffs to target his pro performance specifically, on the grounds that the difference is not significant enough. As such, it really feels like the core argument here just boils down to asking for Twitch to go back to being overtuned in solo queue.

{quoted}

Twitch doesn't need that. With that buff, he will average on 50%, which is fair. And he won't be overbearing on the best Twitch players either.

We'll have to see where exactly that buff will take him, but the reason people are arguing against it is that it feels like too soon a reaction to a nerf that took far too long to happen. Generally, when a champion gets nerfed, it takes a little bit of time for players to adjust, and as such Riot typically lets that champion sit it out for at least one more patch cycle before doing some adjustments. Often, champions are left untouched for far longer, even when their nerfs targeted them more harshly to address shorter-term issues. Twitch, by contrast, was nerfed only last week, after overperforming since the beginning of the previous season, and isn't even doing all that awfully (look at how Kalista's doing, for example). Because of this, a lot of players are getting the feeling that there's some unfair treatment going on, not just for Twitch, but for League's roster in general, where some champions receive preferential treatment and close attention, while others are left to rot. Because of this, I too think it might be better to avoid giving Twitch such a knee-jerk buff, and feel it would instead be better to tone down other overperforming marksmen first before seeing how he does then.

WiegrafOfValorFeb 28, 20182 votes

Using ADCs winrate is the most useless data ever, they only face each other that means even if one ADC are beyond broken, if he isn't on the Top 3 ADCs he'll have a low winrate.

The only thing this 48% winrate shows is that now we have another ADCs that are more broken than twitch, it doesn't mean twitch is weak compare to other classes and champions.

AirKingNeoMar 1, 20181 votes

Anything to back this claim up?

PB4UAMEMar 1, 20181 votes

About 9 years worth of game data, and the fact that you have an adc every single game, for both teams, and they directly compete against each other, as they have for literally the last 9 years straight.

AirKingNeoMar 1, 20181 votes

You also had supports on both teams. Are support insanely broken too now? What about junglers?

WiegrafOfValorMar 1, 20181 votes

You have Tank supports, Poke supports and enchanters. All of them compete for the same spot.

That means when one class of support is broken you see a increase of pick/ban rate and a increase of winrate of that class of support. Like we saw when Ardent was meta.

While ADCs only ever compete against another ADCs and they serve the same purpose, and play relatively thesame, and build almost the same items.

That means if you have one or two ADCs that can deal more damage than the other ones, there's no incentive to play those, making their pick rate and winrate drop, but that doesn't mean they are weak, just that they got outclassed.

This by itself isn't the problem, the problem is that instead of nerfing the ADCs that are outclassing the others, Riot buffs the rest of the ADCs making the whole class broken at each patch.

AirKingNeoMar 1, 20181 votes

Except by your logic, we can separate ADCs into two classes: Casters and Hypercarries

There's clearly been meta shifts from Lucian, MF, Draven to Twitch, Kog, Tristana. Are you going to say that you can't separate these two classes? If you can't, you must concede everything you just attempted to argue.

While ADCs only ever compete against another ADCs and they serve the same purpose, and play relatively the same, and build almost the same items.

Same for supports; whoever can peel best. Same for junglers; whoever can gank the best. What's the difference between Zeal or Essence Reaver and Redemption or Locket?

That means if you have one or two ADCs that can deal more damage than the other ones, there's no incentive to play those, making their pick rate and winrate drop, but that doesn't mean they are weak, just that they got outclassed.

Like I said: Whoever can peel best is meta in support, and whoever can gank best is meta in jungle.

This by itself isn't the problem, the problem is that instead of nerfing the ADCs that are outclassing the others, Riot buffs the rest of the ADCs making the whole class broken at each patch.

You stated that ADCs stay in their own role like Junglers and Supports. You did not prove how ADC was a broken class. Compared to other lanes.

FairyfleurFeb 28, 20184 votes

Same for someone like Annie. If she has a bad winrate she’s probably really bad because or how easy her kit is and how strong it is for teamfighting.

And on the other side of the spectrum, very intensive and difficult champions shouldn’t have high winrates unless their playrate is low.

My HeartshakerFeb 28, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=2nd Chance,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=TnMA0BNy,comment-id=00010001,timestamp=2018-02-28T06:39:46.438+0000)

When the blooming hell did a dang 48% win rate on a champion ever be considered as them being freaking gutted???

I mean considering the nerfs dropped his win-rate by a whopping 5%, I'd consider them a bit harsh.

Twitch is still nerfed, no doubt about that, but it's just not as hard as before.

DrFiveMinusMinusMar 1, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=2nd Chance,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=TnMA0BNy,comment-id=00010001,timestamp=2018-02-28T06:39:46.438+0000)

When the blooming hell did a dang 48% win rate on a champion ever be considered as them being freaking gutted???

You should have heard the sona mains after she got nerfed a while ago

T4underboltFeb 28, 20183 votes

Win rate is not a prove. They could've just nerf his base DMG by 1 and he would get lower win rate because twitch mains are whiny kids afraid to lose freelo. Twitch DMG is 99% his right click with ultimate. Nothing changed from that nerf neither him doing that all of sudden from stealth

JorenciceFeb 28, 20183 votes

Dude. Ive seen you in like 4 threads.

Let go of your anger. Its a fucking game.

Also you have no clue how balance works.

LeetriFeb 28, 20182 votes

He does have a point though. One time long ago when Riven was absolute garbage Riot put a Riven buff in the patch notes and people were praising Riot for how good she felt to play after the buff. Thing is, they had actually forgot to put the buff in the game so absolutely nothing about Riven changed. Yet her winrate increased and people said she felt different. Another example is Vlad, he was super overbearing and Riot put a nerf in the patch notes. And again, they forgot to put the actual nerf in the game. His winrate dropped like a rock and people thanked Riot for gutting Vlad, despite they hadn't done anything with him.

Sometimes a token change is enough to alter people's perception.