"We nerfed Jarvan because it was too easy for him to get to the backline and demolish everything"

Sayonara Shabi·Dec 18, 2016·100 votes·6,742 views

132 Comments

DreadlocksDec 18, 201643 votes

Rengar RIP

Chaos689Dec 18, 20161 votes

I was about to say...

DreadlocksDec 18, 20168 votes

I like that Vi does what she does though.. I'm not always happy about it but we need SOMEONE who can lockdown mobile ADCs.. at least she offers that.

Chaos689Dec 18, 20169 votes

True, but she's always felt too strong to me. She's like irelia; too fast with too much dmge for too much tankiness. I preferred Old Rengar where it actually took PRACTICE to lock down ADCs with E and get out so your team could kill them. People who say he was broken obviously haven't played against the new one - newGar takes 0 skill to oneshot and has 1/10 diffuicult combo.

IcyPepperDec 18, 20162 votes

I don't think anyone disagrees that Vi is overtuned at times, but her kit overall seems fine at least imo.

Tone down some of the numbers, maybe make an adjustment here and there, perhaps less range on her ultimate. Etc etc.

DreadlocksDec 18, 20162 votes

She just abuses CotC thats it.

IcyPepperDec 19, 20161 votes

That sounds like it could be resolved by adjusting her passive.

DreadlocksDec 19, 20164 votes

I think CotC needs more attention personally..

IcyPepperDec 19, 20161 votes

Certainly, but if Vi is abusing it more than others it might be worth looking into her passive.

After nerfing CotC, of course. Don't want to Sejuani her D:

DreadlocksDec 19, 20162 votes

Since ive started playing in season 4 shes been OP at the start of every season, not sure why lol. But yeah def a good spot.

YumScrumptious96Dec 19, 20166 votes

God I wish they reverted the Rengar changes.

Chaos689Dec 20, 20161 votes

Don't we all?

Chaos689Dec 18, 201628 votes

Wait Riot being hyprocrites? NO WAY!

Shadow HazardDec 18, 201622 votes

AoE nuke vs single target nuke vs single target dps. Yes he can dive the backline and kill everyone at the same time, vi and camille can't do that.

Jet SettDec 19, 201613 votes

He does a decent amount of damage to those grouped up, but he doesn't kill the entire team at once.

MarshbouyDec 19, 20169 votes

Do any of the ones above kill the entire team at once?

WimbledofyDec 19, 20165 votes

he was replying to shadow hazard, who implied jarvan could

RavoreDec 19, 20161 votes

Jarvan's ult does not do that much damage lol I wish it did but it simply doesnt

TheKemperorDec 19, 20166 votes

J4's ult has a base damage of 450, at max rank, with a 150% AD scaling. With a build like this: item 1412 item 3071 item 3156 item 3065 item 3143 item 3111

You get about 274 AD at level 18. So, your ult will deal about 861 physical damage.

Best princess EUDec 19, 20166 votes

pre-mitigation, if you don't use your AA or Q to reduce armor your ulti will be reduced

AND ITS BONUS AD SHERLOCK, WHY IS THIS UPVOTED

DengedenDec 19, 201618 votes

"We nerfed J4 because he was a jungler who could force flash every time he went mid, we didn't even nerf his damage, only his tankiness, we've been buffing his damage ever since, learn to read, wtf, if you're gonna make up quotes."

captainkaigerDec 19, 20168 votes

I love that everyone is bitching about Vi, when she has been in almost the exact same state for nearly a year. She got a VERY small buff some months ago. Give it another two months and she'll fade out when they re-balance the game

GrReaper96Dec 19, 20168 votes

Its mainly about how with the new jungle changes she starts to shine because of her safe and fast clear speed compared to other champions giving her an advantage early game

captainkaigerDec 19, 20166 votes

It's always been like that though. She's always been just strong enough to get some play, but not too much. Sometimes she get's put in the spotlight (early season 4 jungle) and other times people call her a trash pick. Just wait for the next patch when things happen, yet again

WoonStruckDec 19, 20165 votes

She's also stronger atm because it doesn't take as much mana to constantly clear the jungle. That's typically her weakness.

Slightly higher health on the camps, plus armor means her W's a lot stronger atm.

RavenMagusDec 19, 20164 votes

It's Courage that pushed her over the edge.

Before she either took a damage keystone (which she didn't need as much because she could already 3-shot you without it anyways), or she took SotA. Courage is a lot stronger than SotA on champs that can actually use it easily, and Vi's one of the ones who gets a giant shield for doing basically anything - on top of the other shield she gets for doing basically anything.

It's just like Hecarim. Hecarim has always done 80% of your HP bar with just his E and a triforce, but now he does that while getting a giant shield so you can't even pretend to fight back before he finishes you off with that last couple Q/autos.

SH AzykanDec 19, 20161 votes

honestly felt like sota was stronger on her, yeah cotc gives more on demand shielding, but sota was just 300 hp always on you since you farmed it so fast. which increased your passive shield anyways. prenerf cotc was definitely op on her though

RavenMagusDec 19, 20162 votes

Courage might be a little weaker than SotA was in the midgame, if you're dueling in a 1v1. In any other scenario - more than one enemy, or level 18 arrives - then Courage is just pretty much always stronger.

captainkaigerDec 20, 20161 votes

SoTA was pretty good because Vi's Passive gives her a shield based upon her health (10%). Here's a question for you though: If it's so good on Vi, wouldn't it be even better on Nautilus, who get's a massive shield with his W on top of CoTC? Why isn't he played more?

RavenMagusDec 20, 20162 votes

Naut's pretty good, and his play rate IS going up - especially in both top and support, where he can use CotC to scrap with opposing laners all the time.

But the difference is Nautilus is a tanky dude that's just getting tankier, whereas Vi is a champion who shits out damage that is getting tankier. Nautilus becomes double tanky, whereas Vi becomes everything.

The EcdysiastDec 19, 20166 votes

We nerfed Jarvan because he has no good skins and so him being a good pick doesn't earn us as much money as either a brand new champion, or two champions with very pretty skins who can all do the same things.

It's a business. None of their decisions are exactly opaque if you just remember which champions have good skins. Though it is funny they opted for an Ultimate skin on Lux when a lot of her counters were just buffed; when a skin is so good that the champion's strength doesn't matter, it's just an outlier from the norm.

GayFluffyUnicornDec 19, 20161 votes

Lux has a pretty high playrate and good winrate especially for mains. Don't see where she is supposed to be weak or not strong?

The EcdysiastDec 24, 20161 votes

All the assassins who counter her were just changed/buffed. THat's all I meant.

Troll for TrumpDec 18, 20164 votes

LeeSin Yasuo

SkorchDec 19, 201616 votes

i personally think you have never actually plain either of those champs as you would know that it would be false. (with their current build paths)

SH AzykanDec 19, 20164 votes

well lee sin can get into a backline and kill someone with his own kit. yasuo has a much harder time doing so though

SkorchDec 19, 201610 votes

Thats why i said depending on the build, they physically can, but if they have no tank items which niether get for like the first 2 or 3. They will just explode. Even with 1 or 2 tankier items its still difficult.

SH AzykanDec 19, 20164 votes

{quoted}

i personally think you have never actually plain either of those champs as you would know that it would be false. (with their current build paths)

where did you say depending on the build? you say they never play the champs or they'd know it would be false because of how they build, not depending on the build.

SkorchDec 19, 20163 votes

Fair enough, my comment was "(with their current build paths)" because while you technically can build yasuo or lee sin tanky, you generally don't. Their current build paths leave them too squishy to even hope on going in on a whole team. They technically could build tank however.

If you notice the OP Camille, Vi, and Hecarim are all tankier junglers. Yasuo and Lee Sin however dont get tanky until later on in the game.

WoonStruckDec 19, 20161 votes

Any decent Lee is going item 1408 item 3071 item 3748 item 3742 item 3065 OR item 3156 , in that order. He ends up about as tanky as Hec about as quickly. Hec only ends up with about 400 more HP by second item, but he also finishes his first two items much later, since Trinity Force is so expensive to rush.

Vi basically builds the same as Lee if you're not bad, except you grab item 3078 instead of item 3071 .

Best princess EUDec 19, 20161 votes

black cleaver sucks on lee, he takes ages to get 6 stacks, his E does magic damage and doesn't help him to stack it

WoonStruckDec 19, 20162 votes

Its an AD item for early snowball that also grants HP and CDR, which is valuable on any manaless champ.

Not only that, but you don't need to apply 6 stacks for the armor shred to be useful. Its not about being burstier, its about being relevant against tanks mid-late.

In addition, it doesn't take him ages to get 6 stacks unless you're horrible at Lee. Q->Q auto auto E auto auto and you're at 6; less than 3 seconds.

The entire point is increasing pick potential with the 115 bonus AD and 30% CDR early game, and helping to scale him later with the health, especially since Titanic is so incredibly strong on so many champions later in the game.

Going titanic 3rd items gives you more all-in potential, faster clear so you can focus more on pressure/objectives, and another 450 health to continue to scale you into mid-late game.

Deadman's+SV rounds out your defenses, scales titanic even more, and even increases your pick potential and staying power in fights.

So really, tell me how Black Cleaver is actually bad with that set-up.

Best princess EUDec 19, 20162 votes

His E does magic damage, it doesn't apply a black cleaver stat

and so that's Q+Q+AA+AA+E+AA+AA which takes more than 3 seconds, and requieres the enemy target to stand in front of you for a long time without doing anything

compare this to a real AD build going for hydra (giving 70 AD)+a last whisper item, doing Q+Q+E+hydra active doing 100% of AD+R+AA during the knock up you will oneshot someone in a fraction of second, and doesn't requiere the enemy target to do anything

WoonStruckDec 19, 20161 votes

Q (1 stack) Q( 2 stacks) auto (3 stacks) auto (4 stacks) E (4 stacks) auto (5 stacks) auto (6 stacks).

3 seconds or less. Stand in front of you for a long time without doing anything? Double Q is 2 stacks, auto for passive procs, since you're now melee is 4 stacks, E to slow, 2 more autos, 6 stacks.

Math is hard.

If you go full AD, you're going to fall off extremely hard. That's why you're bad if you still go full AD when they aren't already snowballing.

If you go the AD+HP route, you still snowball hard, but you don't fall off because you can actually go in without blowing up.

SH AzykanDec 19, 20162 votes

the E does magic, doesnt add a cleaver stack editing to add another auto in to get that extra stack before it. look I can edit too to not look quite as dumb

WoonStruckDec 20, 20161 votes

I never said it did. I even specifically acknowledged that it doesn't add a stack.

Try using a little logic.

Troll for TrumpDec 19, 20164 votes

Lee can definatly pull it off, especially if you didn't build full AD.

Yas might have harder time, but that depends on comp. Most comps, however, he'll have no problem diving through. Like Lee, it also depends on build path. Shyv/PD into IE Yas won't dive into backline until lategame.

Lategame Yas, however, doesn't give two shts about anything.

On the other hand, Lee's diving potential gets less impactful as the game drags on

YumScrumptious96Dec 19, 20162 votes

Holy shit, someone on boards who isn't in the anti yas anti lee circlejerk? Its been years since I've witnessed one.

Troll for TrumpDec 19, 20164 votes

You'd be mistake if I didn't hate Yas. Lee too.

It's not that they're LITERALLY indestructible, but they are obnoxious to deal with.

Fun to play, but people don't like playing against them or around them (Applies more to Yas, making a comp around him, or trying to contest cs with him)