Isnt it funny that lee sin players

Succubús GF·May 8, 2017·18 votes·2,960 views

Think they are the most pro mlg players, but fail to see three things.

Lee sin is not hard to play, he is ridiculously easy, very safe, and has a very strong all around game.
Riot has literally said they would never hurt lee sin or force him to be unpopular for a season or two, funny how nidalee didnt see much play after jungle changes, but you know, they could never do that to poster boy
Lee sin damage ratios are so ridiculously high especially for someone that can point and click ult and q,q for someones full health. There are millions of anti lee sin posts on the boards but riot cares about money more than a player base

25 Comments

TwinkieProMay 8, 20178 votes

"looks up profile" mains ahri suspicious eyes

But in all seriousness, you lost to a 5/4/9 lee sin, and it wasn't even because of him. That jinx shredded your team.

for number 1: You have rarely, if at all, played Lee Sin, so my guess is that you have gauged lee solely on second hand experience. Lee's power is in his early game. Either use that to end quickly or snowball allies, possibly why that jinx was so utterly fed. Lee played to not only his own strengths, but also that of his allies. unless you refer to lee's solo power, yes, he remains strong through out the game. However, the largest portion of skill needed to play him is in the late game. While he does still hurt, his team fight presence can be abysmal, with him either making a playing, or being played.

For 2: I wouldn't necessarily doubt that, but i would not consider that the only reason. My proposal is that he simply falls off hard in the late game. Statistics show this is very true in all ELOs. His winrate starts high, then steadily declines after the first 15 minutes, with a 10% discrepancy from 55% to 45%. Very few champions show similar power curves. This is indicative of loss of team fight presence.

For 3: His base is high, as well as his bonus AD ratios. These alone help ease his Late game presence, and also gives him great early game power. However, Lee thrives when ahead. If he is ahead of you, he will kill you. Put him behind and watch him bleed, but careful not to bring him back in the game. Starve him for the first 15 minutes and you can see how useless a Lee can be. This is another reason why his late game can be so trash. Even with good damage, if he isn't an item ahead, then he is behind. if everyone is at full build, he feels as if he is 1 item short at all times.

Feel free to bash me for playing the champ, doesn't really bother me at this point, but it would be nice to have something else for a change.

Gl on the rift.

Succubús GFMay 8, 20171 votes

~~I main kat but that doesnt help my case in the slightest~~ I have played lee sin, he isnt too hard to play, i mean if i can land charm i can land a lee q. He has had the number 1-3 highest pick rate for 3? Seasons now? Thats just hilarious. Thats the thing, if you throw any assassin behind, theyre behind, theyre screwed, mainly because their bases arent high. Lee's ratios however, are quite high. I am not here to bash lee players, but it gets annoying that he seriously needs to be looked at, have you ever been dived kicked out of turret and qd? Thats wildly unhealthy, but its for "plays" There's no reason to have that much in a kit, high damage, cc, a free shield. It's almost as if im talking about a utility mage, but yet he doubles any mages damage.

JoxcabMay 8, 20172 votes

On the other hand, Q isn't certain death like Ahri's is. High pick rate doesn't automatically mean broken.

His damage is only high because he's an earlygame champion. He falls off like a cliff, and every single statistic proves and backs that up.

It's a little ironic you're complaining about having a lot in a kit as an Ahri player, who has range, just as much or more mobility, sustain, hard CC on a basic ability, AoE, skillshots for when they're not in vision or in vision both, targeted for when they are in vision, true damage, and enough damage to nuke any squishy regardless (not saying this is a bad thing by itself). You don't need overkill damage when what you have is enough to kill any of your intended targets.

TwinkieProMay 8, 20171 votes

I'm sure a lot of players have gone through a Lee kicking them out of safety and using Q to escape. I will be honest in that his RQQ combo is a little silly, but he has many other abilities to allow more complex combos. It took me ages to do his QwardWERQ combo, let alone actually ward hopping effeciently (hint: I still suck at it), but Lee is allowed this because he falls off.

If he were to receive nerfs, which I hope he does before the 10 bans comes out so I can play him still, I would suggest nerfs to his Q. Specifically the execute. Have it start from 1.75% of missing, adding per rank. This would technically make it stronger at max rank, but it would (hopefully) make his pre-6 more bearable for his opponents.

I love lee, but the fact that all his power is thrown into the first 20 minutes of the game can be infuriating for both teams. On the enemies, a hyper aggressive lee will shut you down and can make players useless, or at least feel so. On his own team, they have to deal with a champ that easily kill steals and scales terribly with it. Even if he can get those early kills, is he going to be able to late game?

I don't like judging a champ purely on playrate alone. Lee does have the highest overall playrate, but statistically, he also has some of the most games played per player, only really being beaten by Riven and super dedicated mains, landing him in the top 10 highest games played.

Another stat to look at is damage dealt per game. Lee hits around 14k, right next to sejuani and volibear, literally on the bottom 25% of damage dealt, both compared against laners and junglers. He is even beaten by both nidalee and elise, the two junglers that compare best to him. As for doubling, let alone beating mage damages, that is entirely incorrect. Only malzahar is even close to lee with 1k more damage dealt than him.

Even with his most experienced players, lee only averages a 53% winrate, the lowest next to rakan in dedicated players. Lee, from what I've gathered, technically has one of lowest groups of players with 50 games or less. However, this is percentage base, so is larger in actual numbers while being smaller in comparison to other sub-50 player groups. (I'll be honest, I didn't compare all 189 common champs and their roles, that's just tedious).

http://champion.gg/statistics/#?sortBy=general.totalDamageDealtToChampions&order=descend&roleSort=

http://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/winrates-by-xp

http://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/main-stats

http://champion.gg/champion/LeeSin/Jungle

I used both sites to compare. Generally, LoG.com tends to have better accuracy, but certain stats are harder to ascertain, such as games played on average (Champion.gg does this with a neat pie chart).

There are far more unhealthy things in league. I believe players are just tired of seeing lee, and, well, its hard to blame them.

PePsiLemoNNMay 8, 20176 votes

10 People posting threads about Lee being broken =/= the whole playerbase but w/e

DracocrashMay 8, 20173 votes

ikr

Nameless DrifterMay 8, 20174 votes

Isnt it funny that the people that complain about Lee Sin always say he is so easy to play yet most Lee Sins under Diamond have no idea how to play after early game and what they are supposed to do.

I honestly feel that Lulu and now 950 armor Sejuani need more nerfs than Lee Sin, in fact Lee Sin is in a pretty balanced state.

iLLpMay 8, 20174 votes

http://www.champion.gg/champion/LeeSin/Jungle?league=

yet somehow he struggles to maintain a 50% winrate

lee sin is actually a shit character and its people like you who say lee sin is a good character is what keeps people playing him.

when people realize hes a shit character then people will stop playing him

Skins ProjectMay 8, 20174 votes

Oh my lord..

Another one.

He isn't hard, I cannot disagree, but he isn't easy either. You don't just hop into ranked on game #5 and dominate. When played at a less then OTP/High level, he is average AT BEST. I.E. He's only oppressive if in the hands of someone good.
Didn't say never. If I recall they said they would prefer not to change him to a large degree (I'd have to look it up and it's honestly not worth it for this)
Really? Don't exaggerate it breaks your post more then it helps it. GO full ad lee sin and your costing your team the game. Go tank and your winning it.
Lol millions? There aren't even millions of boards users. + When they tried changing lee there was so much fking backlash. Riot is a business, nuff said. You care more about yourself and recent games then the player base. :^)
Don't group people? Just wtf? That's just not fucking cool. Don't act as if all lee sin players are "fantasy induced players", Vaynes, yasuos, and rivens aren't all toxic.

MrHaZeYoMay 8, 20173 votes

I hate when people say Lee is easy to play. I rarely see people do proper insecs, which is his signature move, because it is actually fairly hard to execute. He may not be difficult but he is indeed hard to master.

Succubús GFMay 8, 20178 votes

He is easy to play, mastering =/= playing,

MrHaZeYoMay 8, 20171 votes

Well than 99% of the champions are easy to play. That should no longer be considered a argument.

Succubús GFMay 8, 20175 votes

99% of champions arent broken, 99% of champions arent exempt from heavy nerfs, 99% of champions arent favorited, 99% of champions havent been heavily played since release

A Basic IslandMay 8, 20173 votes

isn't it funny that the vast majority of people that complain about lee and yasuo are bronze

also, if lee was ridiculously easy like you say, why are you silver/bronze?

obv if lee is so op and so easy you'd be something like diamond or challenger

Succubús GFMay 8, 20175 votes

Isnt it funny that lee is still abused in high elo and there are people who talk about in places other than bronze silver? You just see it more often because guess what? B/S/G are more than half of the player base. Wow look at that :^)

A Basic IslandMay 8, 20171 votes

again, why are you only silver if he's so easy and good?

people in high elo that complain about him are just bandwagoning like the vast majority of you bronzies and silvers

Succubús GFMay 8, 20176 votes

Oh look a lee sin player, makes sense. Heres a little info on this game, i dont enjoy playing lee sin, simple as that, see unlike a bunch of people, i play who i like to play, who i find fun. And wow, look if you took the time to look me up, i main mid lane.

OH SO SUDDENLY WHEN PEOPLE THAT "MATTER" THINK A CHAMPION IS BROKEN, they suddenly stop mattering. Nice logic there dude, i guarantee you arent past diamond so you can stop acting better than people <3

A Basic IslandMay 8, 20171 votes

stay silver =)

TEA Nietzsche May 8, 20173 votes

[{quoted}](name=Afk Warding,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=TkIN58cm,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-05-08T07:27:59.725+0000)

Think they are the most pro mlg players, but fail to see three things.

Lee sin is not hard to play, he is ridiculously easy, very safe, and has a very strong all around game.

You know that.. How? Looks like you haven't played a single ranked on Lee Sin so I am sorry, but I must question your expertise on the difficulty of that champion.

ThefrostyvikingMay 8, 20173 votes

Lee is not easy though ._.

What champions are you even comparing him to?

Shyv, xin zhao....pretty much any tank and graves are easy. They have safe clears and for some it's not only safe but very quick and healthy too.

I main Shyv and Xin for jungle just because of that, farming quicker than a modern peasant in a tractor rolling over his grown fields while barely losing any health and only growing stronger as the game goes.

lee sin? Slow farming, EXTREMELY snowball reliant, low health clearing most of the time for the first clear. In exchange he get's to be to be a god of ganking.

And his lategame isn't even that good, his only virtue at that point is his R for CC, and most people can see it coming from miles away.

Shyv in comparision? Dives in as a unstoppable dragon, soaks all the damage causing confusion and still dishing out tons of damage in return. And unless chainstunned to oblivion most carries won't be able to run away from her high movespeed.

Reason lee is played over Shyv? Same reason that Elise is.

Extreme early aggo and huge snowball works for pro players, not so much for others unless they very, very damm good at the champ.

I dare you to say that Elise is easy to play, i dare you :(

ExcusemeFellowsMay 8, 20171 votes

Elise is easy to play. Kappa

ThefrostyvikingMay 8, 20171 votes

You sir, have caused me to become amused.

And truthfully, she is easy to play, somewhat.

What´s difficulty is coordinating with the team to demonstrate her strengths other than farming.

e46 FanaticMay 8, 20172 votes

Lee sin is very annoying, but he is very predictable. Idk whats so wrong with the jungle update and nidalee lol, I do have 300k on nid, but regardless, I make from blue side to razors without touching smite, even red sometimes. Even getting leash with Nidalee makes it very hard to start considering she kites blue like a baws and nearly takes no damage(bout 80% after popping a hp pot), yet taking almost half hp from a leash. I'm gonna have to say that jungle is still nidalee's home, lol. People rarely give her a chance. I honestly love playing against lee sins simply because they all use the same lame combos and are 100% predictable. He's very strong, but I'd say he doesn't need a rework or anything.

FormationXMay 8, 20171 votes

Since he won't be toned down anytime soon, there is just one (two) thing available. Learn to counter him. Sadly, there is nothing else. (in ranked you can ban him, but it isn't that consistent)

DuskDaUmbreonMay 8, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Afk Warding,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=TkIN58cm,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-05-08T07:27:59.725+0000)

Think they are the most pro mlg players, but fail to see three things.

Can't disagree with that. Probably fail to see more than three things, Lee being blind and all, though.

Lee sin is not hard to play, he is ridiculously easy, very safe, and has a very strong all around game.

Not hard? I can agree with that. He's not hard to play at a basic level. Ridiculously easy, though? He's got a skillshot, and has pretty slow clearing speed, so not really easy. Kinda safe, as long as you're careful, and don't get locked down. Statistics show he falls off late-game with any meta build, so he can't be strong all-around.

Riot has literally said they would never hurt lee sin or force him to be unpopular for a season or two, funny how nidalee didnt see much play after jungle changes, but you know, they could never do that to poster boy

Not crippling someone is not the same as not nerfing someone. Riot's going to be cautions with nerfing Lee, because he's popular. Making him unviable would be stupid. But they do nerf him. Nidalee needs some changes, sure, but that's not a reason to nerf Lee. It's a reason to change Nidalee. NIDAlee, not just Lee. I'm also pretty sure that Lee isn't the poster boy of League. Far more people outside of League know of Teemo.

Lee sin damage ratios are so ridiculously high especially for someone that can point and click ult and q,q for someones full health.

Ult requires point-blank range. That means wardhop+Flash or to land (and follow up on) a Q, which puts him in the middle of the enemy team. He also ends up building pretty tanky in pretty much every situation, so high damage ratios are kinda irrelevant. Not sure why ratios are "especially high for someone that can ult and Q.Q someone for their total health", given that you'd need high ratios to do that in the first place to do that. But he can't 100-0 someone, unless he's either stupid-fed or he uses a suicide build.

There are millions of anti lee sin posts on the boards...

Done by about 5 people. All just saying "ERMAGHURD LE SUN TOOOOO OP RITO NERF ALREADY!!!!!111". 5 people are far less than 1,000,000+ people.

but riot cares about money more than a player base

Except that a bigger player base = more money, and Riot knows this. You're complaining about "RITO CARES TWO MUC ABUT DA LC$$$$!!!!111", except Riot has proven time and time again that they care about the low-tier guys just as much.

Also confused as to how someone with any proficiency with Ahri has problems against Lee. She's a giant fucking middle finger to his entire kit, since, if he follows up on his Q to her, she can charm him in the middle of it. You can ult or Q away from him as well. And, yes, I'm a fucking Ahri main, so I know what I'm talking about. She's my second champ, and as soon as I could land her E I could kill Lee Sin.

Want to beat Lee? Here's the best guide: