I'm fine with the Frozen Mallet changes but there's one thing that bothers me

HateDaddy··4 votes·602 views

And to save you time, I'll post their reasoning behind the change:

"Frozen Mallet’s the kind of item that often seems less effective than it is, thanks to an odd mix of stats only a select few champions really want. That said, seeing some of those performers come to light (Gnar and Tank Yasuo being at the forefront) has shown how powerful the item can be in the hands of our stickier fighters. As a result, we're shifting its statline to favor more defense than offense to align better with the item’s identity. Mallet should be a strong (if occasional) pickup for when you want to opt-in to more of a disruptive role, rather than when you want to kill your opponents faster."

Literally everything being said about Frozen Mallet also applies to Rylais with mages (aside from gnar and yasuo obviously). Except there's no misconception, you know it's effective as fuck. Swap out mages and fighters and you get the same thing here. And it's not as if mages have relied on rylais forever, it's only this season that many mages started building it.

Can rylais get the same treatment? Two champions are building FM, almost every Mage is building rylais, even when it's not really needed. Can we make it more of a pure defensive item and less of a burst item? That way, there aren't a million and one random slows in the game.

(prepares for Mage circle jerk to lose their shit)

prepared

13 Comments

Ahristocats4 votes

said it a billion of times

rylai shouldn't have a luden echo lvl of AP

make it 500 hp/80 AP or 600 hp/60 AP

Tormentula1 votes

Difference between rylais and frozen mallet is frozen mallet requires the use of basic attacks to slow. It makes kiting and sticking to people easier. Rylai's requires you to use abilities and spells inorder to apply the slow, making it more rewarding for mages which lack auto damage and can't actually catch anything on their own without landing abilities. Its kinda a last resort for their lack of mobility, and the general skillshot reliance champions that build rylai's need. It gives mages and AP divers the health and stick to secure or help the team secure kills while kiting while landing abilities.

The only thing Rylais can be compared to is Iceborn Gauntlet, which is a short slow on spell hit but without the stats to back up on most champions.

Also Rylai's isn't a burst item, it doesn't have any unique bonus damage effects or raw damage passives like: item 3152 item 3285 item 3089

Frozen mallet only works well on Gnar and Yasuo at the moment, both which have either %hp damage, or armor pen with on hit effects on spells making the passive of FM too strong to kite.

HateDaddy2 votes

{quoted}

Difference between rylais and frozen mallet is frozen mallet requires the use of basic attacks to slow. It makes kiting and sticking to people easier. Rylai's requires you to use abilities and spells inorder to apply the slow, making it more rewarding for mages which lack auto damage and can't actually catch anything on their own without landing abilities.

The only thing Rylais can be compared to is Iceborn Gauntlet, which is a short slow on spell hit but without the stats to back up on most champions.

Also Rylai's isn't a burst item, it doesn't have any unique bonus damage effects like item 3152 item 3285 item 3089

And almost every auto attack range is going to be much shorter than most of these spell ranges. So the auto attacker is put in some danger by doing it.

And it gives 100 AP, that's a burst item. And I'm fine with rylais gaining a little more HP but losing AP, it shouldn't be giving 100 AP

Tormentula1 votes

{quoted}

And almost every auto attack range is going to be much shorter than most of these spell ranges. So the auto attacker is put in some danger by doing it.

And it gives 100 AP, that's a burst item. And I'm fine with rylais gaining a little more HP but losing AP, it shouldn't be giving 100 AP

I think the main problem I'm having here is there is no specific mentions of what Rylais makes broken.

Off the top of my head, nobody is saying Elise Cassiopeia Anivia AurelionSol Brand Heimerdinger FiddlesticksVelkozSinged are broken due to rylais on the same scale as people are concerned about Yasuo Gnar

The only champions I can say thrive too well on Rylais is Rumble Taliyah Kennen but even then, I still find their performance without rylais to be significant enough, especially since when I do play these champions (except taliyah) I tend to dominant without finishing rylais before 20 minutes.

So my question is, why is rylai's a problem? What champions are so strong due to rylais with an abnormal performance rate, strictly due to them coming back into lane with the item? Is it really rylai's making the entire AP roster broken, or is it just specific overtuned champions?

HateDaddy2 votes

{quoted}

I think the main problem I'm having here is there is no specific mentions of what Rylais makes broken.

Off the top of my head, nobody is saying Elise Cassiopeia Anivia AurelionSol Brand Heimerdinger FiddlesticksVelkozSinged are broken due to rylais on the same scale as people are concerned about Yasuo Gnar

The only champions I can say thrive too well on Rylais is Rumble Taliyah Kennen but even then, I still find their performance without rylais to be significant enough, especially since when I do play these champions (except taliyah) I tend to dominant without finishing rylais before 20 minutes.

So my question is, why is rylai's a problem? What champions are so strong due to rylais with an abnormal performance rate, strictly due to them coming back into lane with the item? Is it really rylai's making the entire AP roster broken, or is it just specific overtuned champions?

I think it's more an issue with some of these champions building it when they already have slows or hard cc in their kits. Some the champions you listed have always bought it. And in the case of yasuo and Gnar, they are broken because of innate issues, hence why they're receiving nerfs too (which makes FMs changes even more baffling but I'm still fine with it).

Champions who I feel have abusive relationships with rylais are Azir Annie Syndra Viktor because of their ability to slow from long range and then follow up with burst. These are champions who never really relied on rylais before (well maybe azir did it could be argued) and yet they still build it and perma slow with Viktor/Annie ult/tibbers and Syndra landing one slow from long range and then proceeding to burst. To be clear, I'm not saying this makes any of these champions easy or not but I find these to be really abusive cases and I doubt they'd go for rylais if it didn't give 100 AP.

That's been my entire point: rylais shouldn't be giving 100 AP

Tormentula1 votes

{quoted}

I think it's more an issue with some of these champions building it when they already have slows or hard cc in their kits. Some the champions you listed have always bought it. And in the case of yasuo and Gnar, they are broken because of innate issues, hence why they're receiving nerfs too (which makes FMs changes even more baffling but I'm still fine with it).

Champions who I feel have abusive relationships with rylais are Azir Annie Syndra Viktor because of their ability to slow from long range and then follow up with burst. These are champions who never really relied on rylais before (well maybe azir did it could be argued) and yet they still build it and perma slow with Viktor/Annie ult/tibbers and Syndra landing one slow from long range and then proceeding to burst. To be clear, I'm not saying this makes any of these champions easy or not but I find these to be really abusive cases and I doubt they'd go for rylais if it didn't give 100 AP.

That's been my entire point: rylais shouldn't be giving 100 AP

Annie Syndra are questionable, I even checked to make sure I was positive on this, and they don't normally build Rylais, atleast not as a core item.

Annie is strong at all points of the game because of dumb burst, assuming its only 30 minutes into the game, she wouldn't have her full Rylai's before any of the 3 core items normally built, assuming rylai's is a 4th throw on item.
http://na.op.gg/champion/annie/statistics/mid

Syndra occasionally builds Rylai's in her core builds, but not often. However I can guarante a Q+W+E+Q+R+Ignite can literally burst any single mid laner with or without Rylai's. http://na.op.gg/champion/syndra/statistics/mid

Viktor I can't say much, don't play him and don't lane against him that often to see the impact.

Azir however, he's in that "so bad or broken he needs reworked" state so its hard to say Rylai's is the overall issue, it does make azir do his job effectively since he can't really kite and Rylai's slows are his methods of getting the damage and self peel usually. I can say azir is one of the few if only champions I have to stall until I get a rylai's inorder to be effective in what I do.

Sexy Jack Rabbit1 votes

High AP =/= Burst item. Rylai's is a utility item with high AP. It would be the same as calling the old item 3027 a burst item or item 3040 a burst item.

IcyPepper2 votes

So there shouldn't be any reason why its AP couldn't be lowered if it's over-performing then, right?

Sohleks2 votes

There are a ton of mages that take Rylias to levels of abuse beyond frozen mallet does (but more as an aoe persistent effect)

Have you ever seen a Rylias Karthus?

What about Rylias on dot mages like Cassio or Malzahar?

With 40% slows applied to every spell a mage has it really is no liability at all.

Tormentula1 votes

{quoted}

There are a ton of mages that take Rylias to levels of abuse beyond frozen mallet does (but more as an aoe persistent effect)

Have you ever seen a Rylias Karthus?

What about Rylias on dot mages like Cassio or Malzahar?

With 40% slows applied to every spell a mage has it really is no liability at all.

Are you saying karthus is a problem in the current meta? If he's not a problem, then his example doesn't matter.

Is cassio a problem? Cause she still seems to handle herself well in early trades and levels before even purchasing her rylais, yes her power spike increases once she gets it, but its hard to say rylais is the only reason cassio wins in early game lane pressure.

Malzahar was a problem as malzahar, not rylais. He's not in the best balanced state, either too strong or underwhelming with no where to go. I can't say rylai's breaks malzahar when what really breaks mal is his ability to 100-0 with a voidling swarm, E, and trapped in his ultimate.

Sohleks1 votes

I am pretty satisfied to add Rylias to my build on pretty much every ap champion in the game at some point. Even on champions it makes less sense on it is still fine. It'd have to be Lissandra with a slow on everything to pass it up.

If the champion can't work with Rylias in its core it's not meta outside particular exceptions.

To not see ap build Rylias is surprising. And since it's such an oppressive item it is very overbearing on things that have trouble with kiting.

It's an environment where nearly every commonly played mage is Ashe Ashe

Ahristocats3 votes

{quoted}

Difference between rylais and frozen mallet is frozen mallet requires the use of basic attacks to slow

completly unrelated. You're talking about their passives, while our problems is how mages can get so much damage by building a un utility/defensive item.

Sohleks1 votes

When even Ryze wants Rylias over RoA with the build Jensen is doing

item 3003 item 3165 item 3116

ecks dee

Superior build at a glance. Superior items.

A ton more kiting and health for ranged champions. Slows for kill secures and damage mitigation via kiting. Very balanced.

I doubt -20 ap would even be a meaningful nerf.

The item should be reworked to a no health item imo. Maybe even split into a tank version and a carry version. Perhaps a new component item for slow items.

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