The Problem With Pyke

Zerenza··2 votes·2,114 views

I think that since it's been about 3 weeks since Pyke's release and that he's still sitting at the worst winrate in two separate roles it's pretty safe to say the champion isn't all that great. Fortunately there's a good reason why and it's something that Riot, along with ourselves, can learn from.

Pyke is an assassin, more over he's a nerfed one, as they stated they gave him a lot of tools to play as a support and because of that he has his passive that prevents him from building any HP so he can't end up like Ekko or Fizz. But that's actually part of the problem with him in Support, he has plenty of CC but no way to survive going in to use it, his passive is really helpful after your done fighting, mostly to recover from failed engages buuuuut assassins don't really play that way and the Support role is full of champions that hard counter assassins.

Supports that Hard Counter Assassins: Morgana Sona Soraka Janna Zyra Leona Alistar

Infact most Supports counter assassins, because their supposed to, so what your telling me is that Pyke was designed to constantly be at a disadvantage in the support role, even if his ultimate is really good and is DEFINITELY strong enough to get everyone else on your team fed during mid game with just a few picks and roams, it's not good enough to save him from his entire kit being countered by one spell from 90% of the botlaner's in the game.

In jungle despite having a kit that's almost perfect for ganking, his clear is downright crap and it takes a lot to make him work there, the main reason being his Cooldowns are atrociously long early in the game, this was done to mimic other strong catcher's in botlane such as Thresh, so that the enemy can play against it buuuut as we can clearly see, despite support being his best role, he'll never have a good time there unless he's buffed into being OP. So why not make him a jungler? In Riot Meddler's words.

"We purposely made it hard to play him in other roles out of fear for him being too strong." what this translates to is that, he's an assassin that was made to support, but can't because of how the Support and Assassin dynamic works against him and that because of EXP sharing in botlane he can't get ahead like an assassin usually has to unless in those extreme situations where you just dominate in lane phase, but even then, he's still a support if that happens and won't have enough gold to even afford a duskblade most of the time.

TLDR: I think we can kind of assume pyke will never truely work as a support since he's going to constantly be fighting things that counter him, but in the jungle if he got a lower cooldown on his shortcasted Q he'd probably be fine there and it would make a nice home for him. What we can learn from this is not to try and pigeon hole a certain class of champion into a role that doesn't fit the playstyle and puts them at a constant disadvantage. (assassins though are really the only class this applies to. Pigeon holing doesn't work for them because they have obvious weaknesses and obvious strengths, most of them atleast, and it usually results in them having trouble in any role that they have to constantly deal with those weaknesses, if you remove those weaknesses then you make them OP.)

9 Comments

Kai Guy2 votes

I disagree that pykes bad, I whole heartedly agree however that the Pen build pyke is terrible. I like to have 50+ ranked games before talking about a champ in to much detail but currently im sitting at 3.07:1 KDA 6.0 / 5.4 / 10.5 65% 31 Played (ranked. including normal im at 68 games, still not in my preference for a realistic ballpark of mastery but its workable.)

The Aftershock of tanks better, Or you could try my I do what I want Glacial Augmentation AD build. Pyke needs to be played as a support first and assassin secondary. Standard ad assassin pen items are BAD on him. Your pokes meh, Your durability's low, CC destroys you, MP costs are high to be spammed. Cant rely on abilitys to soften targets. When playing pyke your pattern is a mix of In and out or all in. The Pen build does adds a lot of risk to in and out, rewards all in, cost a lot, weakens your early game, hurts your teams lane phase, still results in subpar damage until several completions of items. If you just want to 100 to 0 some one, pykes not the champion for you.

Supporting with pyke is about Opening a fight, and ending it. You use W to position then a mix of CC to give your DPS a solid window to drop the target into R range. Other AD assassins, they are not stuck behind an execute like pyke. Talon Zed Kayn Leblanc Rengar All of them have a higher window of when their ultis are usefull, its part of their spell rotations, part of their burst, or how they engage. Only Evelynn is really an assassin who aims to finish folks at low hp with their R. In this regard Pyke R is more like Evelynn Urgot Darius Garen Chogath , its power is delayed in fights until its usable for a kill, any other usage is suboptimal. Plus when used for executions it makes Pen a wasted stat. So only 50% of his kit benefits from pen as a stat, his autos aint terrible but he is not gonna have gold to get offtanky and do damage so you end up with a glass cannon who ooms, cant stick, and relys on trying to all in high value target but objectively speaking, he is bad at that solo.

You build him Pen, and your missing out on what his kit can do. Off tank aftershock, it gives a lot of utility, still ups his damage due to passive, and it gives him enough up time that his kit becomes slippery. That said, I still think its a bit slow for a build and it feels still a bit weak in lane.

Hence why I like Galcial augmentation. You start with a slow on hit. This helps on peel or ganks, again im aiming to play around teammates to make myself do well rather then 100% some one on the enemy team solo. The rest of the inspiration line is about Gold advantage. You can save a few 100$ on his build off options available to you, I also like minion Dematerliser and item 3302 interactions, Not missing early cannons because its to much of a risk is dam helpful, more so when your ADC appears to have no idea how the Stacks of Relic function. im snagging item 3144 pretty early, on completion you get yourself an on demand 60% slow in AOE with 5 second duration. This 1500 item alone gives you more peel, better engage, it makes your mid and jungles ganks stronger, TP ganks stronger from top, and helps you net kills when you roam as pyke. You should btw try to roam as pyke. When dealing with Harder lanes i'm gonna grab item 2033 its cheep, your not gonna max slots for a lot of the game so its not hurting your item slots majority of lane and mid game, and the MP regin helps stay in lane ontop of the heal sustain. A OOM pyke is weak AF.

Pykes W is fucking fantastic, I don't know why people are not discussing its value more often. The indicator can be used as a mind game, the mobility is dam good, you can really position aggressively off it. W into Cutlass or Botrk Zap with Glacial sets you up for an Easy Q or E, The MS from it is often enough to run some one down to land an Auto for a slow that then sets you up once again for a Q or E. I love to roam, I like being slippery. Pyke can hit that off half an item. Im takeing W maxed second, E CDR 15 seconds all game, better to get items to improve it. The gain in damage is again not the goal, its about setting up fights for your team. W gives you more for this, W allows better roam, better escapes (it doesn't break unless it ends or you do something aggressive), better chase.

End result? I'm sitting at a decent win rate, I have games I can see clear impact that my playing was the deciding factor in lane, I see games that my playing was the deciding factor in a win and I don't handicap my self in lane with a overly expensive build that's consistently underperforming.

Also Evelynn and Ekko have sustain patterns in their kits. Don't play or build pyke like he is Zed Talon or your gonna have a bad time. If you run him as a support, don't assume your gonna GET feed to have a stupidly expensive build, your not only relying on being able to kill folks, your behind in power, your stuck waiting till 6, and you can still Miss the R and are further gated behind CD of ability for your gold generation. Its a TERRIBLE PLAYPATTERN WHAT ARE YOU DOING STHAP!

TLDR. A**SUPPORT **assassin works via a assassins mobility and target selection, that in and out play pattern, combined with good target CC lock down. Support is the first thing your doing, Assassinate is 2ndary. You set your team up for damage, Your team sets your clean up for kills and gold.

Azadethe1 votes

I like your openness to experimenting with damage sources and sustainability. I too have been using a lot of attack speed/etc items or defensive offensive items like item 3153 item 3156 item 3812 .

But I will say this: Aftershock build dies a TON more than a Phase rush build. I've done Aftershock/Electrocute/Phase rush and there is no comparison.

Move speed is able to get you in, out and usually within enough time you won't get popped by your HP vulnerability.

You can play the dance a lot longer and a lot healthier when every time you can get out and reset your HP.

Also, most Aftershocks get wasted on Pyke. He's out of range 70% of the Q's that proc it. It raises his defense for 2 sec but not much else.

Of Electrocute or Aftershock, I generally favor Aftershock, but I favor Phase rush even more.

My Pyke KDA is 4.28 btw.

I very RARELY die more than 3 times a game.

Zerenza1 votes

Off tank aftershock is not an assassin build, Riot is currently including Buffs to pyke to prevent him from going that build. Using that build all your doing is taking advantage of the fact he can't build HP and using it to get a bunch of resistance, like sure it's effective but it is not what he was initially designed to do. What he was designed to do was allow an assassin, with an assassin build, to go botlane and be successful but what you said further proves my point that it's not possible without removing what he was intended to do in the first place.

As i said, he can't function as an assassin in botlane because your forced to take runes that don't compliment the playstyle and forced to not be able to do what an assassin does because of build as well. Which kind of ruins the whole point of having an assassin, based on what you said he might as well be a tank because that's what your using him for.

Side note: Evelynn and Ekko have SUSTAIN PATTERNS, but the rest of their kits are are entirely revolving around assassinating, Pyke was given a Stun and a Pull along with Sustain, sure Ekko has a stun but landing it is fucking hard, sure Evelynn has a charm but she actually NEEDS it to kill people. Pyke on the otherhand needed the tools to be a support, hence his restore passive since he has to go in, but he needed CC to make fighting in 2v2's more useful, hence his E and Q, he also needed the Q to be a good catcher in bot lane similar to Thresh. But incase you didn't know, most assassins don't have any CC, because it makes them too strong, unless their specifically designed to play around that CC(Evelynn, Ahri, Leblance) or the CC is incredibly hard to hit(Ekko) it makes them overbearing to not make pyke overbearing with the CC he needed to support, his ability to assassinate suffered horrendously.

Second Side Note: Evelynn pays for her hard CC and Camo by having no Mobility and needing to hit the CC(atleast early) to kill someone. Ekko pay's for his Stun and his Heal by only having 2 easy to land abilities that deal damage, requiring him to land his stun to get a really quick kill, or chase people down to get a slower one.

Azadethe1 votes

Aftershock scales with AD now (15%), so it's not actually not an offensive build.

And the reason he goes Aftershock is because not only does it add Armor/Resist, it also adds HP. No. Not HP that's useable as HP. But HP that turns into AD. At a minimum, taking resolve adds 12.5 AD. More than most Domination builds do.

And Overgrowth, Crystalis ALSO add AD, and if your secondary is Inspiration, it's even more AD from HP.

For Pyke the AD scaling for both trees is similar.

Pyke's kit does NOT behave like other assassins. You will almost never get a 100-0 Kill off Pyke the way you can with the others. You have to dance around targets and chip them lower. Sometimes this means literally staying back and doing nothing but taunting a team with Q's. If the opposing team has 3 tanks, it's not even worth trying to do anything but support with Pyke, even if you are Jungler/Mid/Top with him.

Now. Mid - Late game I can absolutely roll 1v1 with a Pyke. But that's because I don't build the same as most Pykes (like Kai Guy).

Kai is not building him as a tank. He's using Aftershock and Conditioning with items like item 3156 to increase their gold value.

That being said, I'm Diamond I and I Phase Rush Pyke.

Kai Guy1 votes

Looks like i was unclear in my post. I myself am not using aftershock. I run Frozen Augmentation and item 3153 going into item builds that give me damage and uptime in team fights. My first power spike comes from the completion of item 3144 being a 60% aoe 5 second slow on demand that I can use with W to set up full duration CC and displacement which provides my teammates the opportunity's to do their full spell rotations, and to KS with my R for gold advantage any time I can. You are correct that I do like to run item 3155 as its everything pyke wants in a item vs ap teams.

Azadethe1 votes

I just don't run into many occasions where slows are relevant to me..... since Q itself is a slow, so I don't need it as much. If I have no need to pull, I just go up, Q someone and E them on W. Ofc that's usually mid/late game, where cooldowns are less of a liability.

Kai Guy1 votes

If I was jungling him then I would probably not run it as well, in lane I find the slow very usefully.

Kai Guy1 votes

Lets make shur we are on the same page from the start. Would you kindly explain what you feel the assassin play pattern is and what is in champions kits that creates it?

Azadethe1 votes

I dominate almost all those champs except SOMETIMES Morgana (when she has a high pressure ADC in addition to Morg; Usually you can just wait out her shield and be ready to pounce).

He does fine in jungle.... where I primarily play him at. His clear is fine.

I occasionally get invaded but never die.

I do get complaints that early in the game I don't gank like Warwick LeeSin JarvanIV MasterYi do, but that's okay. The reason I don't is because early on .... you're right: His cooldowns are a liability to ganking no ward lanes

(I do still occasionally gank, but it needs to be a sure thing or a summoner burner without using mine)

But his clear is fine. I Red > Krugs > Scuttle >Wraiths > Wolves > Blue > Scuttle > Gromp nearly every game without a problem.

You just need to learn to orb and time your aoe skills for the greatest effectiveness.

Pyke has 3 Auto attack resets potentially, so clearing is not a problem at all once you have item 3077 or item 3751 or both.

His role is misinterpreted by supports mainly in skill order.

E has never been meant to be a reliable engage. It's been meant to be your out when things are too risky. The most reliable combos are to W > set up angle and range, and then Q a target up to you when they have no dashes to avoid the hook.

You can then E away or foward depending on the assessed risk of dying.

Most supports are doing this instead: Q (miss 40% of them) and then E in on the successful hooks. This leaves him no outs. You can't reliably always run SOLELY with W. W is a risky escape. E is a sure thing.

More from Gameplay

More by Zerenza