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Kept hearing Zyra was terrible, and unplayable, So i ran up a 74% winrate on her over 23 games

Professor Ward··6 votes·1,133 views

I originally wanted to run 30 games, and write a post about my results, it took 23 games for me to know all i needed.

Heres my thoughts:

Im not at the highest elo, im playing her support, and i could see how that could matter. Besides that i just dont see her as overly weak at all. Lack of knowledge on how to properly use a champion and build a champion is not grounds for them being weak. And that feels like most of the problem here.

Some things of note after these games:

  • ZYRA has a literal metric ton of nuances that take a longgggg while to learn.

  • Knowing how to abuse her outrageous auto attack range is HUGE.

  • Knowing how to abuse her seeds for vision is HUGE.

  • Knowing how to manage her seed passive, and its resets, ESPECIALLY EARLY, are HUGE.

  • Rushing rylais and using it for targeted map control slows is HUGE.

  • Knowing how to use her full combo as an AOE counter engage is HUGE.

And i feel these are all things the average zyra player just isnt doing....... A decent zyra mid game is almost unkillable. With the amount of vision and non stop targeted slows, shes actually insane. And her aoe burst counter engage+ cc is unmatched from a sup mage.

In my opinion Rylais rush zyra is the best map control and counter engage support in game right now.

24 Comments

0 Hogapu3 votes

Have u ever tried Zyra mid ? same thoughts ?

Professor Ward2 votes

{quoted}

Have u ever tried Zyra mid ? same thoughts ?

Actually i would NOT recommend zyra mid as i feel a dedicated mid laner, a second body around, and a rylais rush, make zyra so much stronger.

Without rylais she's an immobile sitting duck, and that makes her really weak.

The support role allows her to forgo straight dps and farming mid alone, and dip into utility, more vision, and safety. While allowing for an adc follow up to anything you do.

0 Hogapu1 votes

I played her mid a lot, and honestly I don't think she is much different from a syndra or another immobile mage. Letting zyra farm allows her to have rylai/liandry pretty early in the game, and is super hard to push out - she can turtle super hard. However yeah you lose vision of her plants, and you will get more focused (or not, people sometimes forget to) It depends on the composition they have, but yeah it is not too bad honestly. :) just wanted to hear your thoughts

PopCorn Chick3n1 votes

She's not different from any mage at all but you gotta know why Syndra works better in mid than Zyra.

  1. Syndra has reliable stun (Zyra is a root) and twice as fast as Zyra projectile. It is almost instant.

  2. Syndra combo goes very smooth with one another just like other mages. You landed a cc, you are throwing all of your spells out. Zyra on the other hand, have a bunch of delay and none of her abilities connect to one another in range. This cause enemy have more window to outplay her.

There's more but right now Zyra mid just doesn't work.

Cowgirl Ed2 votes

so who should we listen, you with 20 games or people who have 50000 games on her?

Professor Ward2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kiss Kiss Kiss,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=TRBbU1cq,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2018-03-18T15:05:33.967+0000)

so who should we listen, you with 20 games or people who have 50000 games on her?

Nobody has 50,000 games on her? Thats over 1200 days 4 years of non stop playing 24 hours a day, sounds like bs to me.

And i have way more than 20 games on her, that is just this season in ranked queue.

hi ìm groot1 votes

Only prob with zyra is she's a mage supp, and enchanter supps are really strong atm. Not really a big deal in most elos though because adc's can be mostly irrelevant to the win conditions anyways depending on the team comps, but usually it is better to have an ardent user.

SparklingLama1 votes

To be fair if you play Zyra's plants right you can solo bot lane fairly easy or dominate. The consistent harassment with her plants can influence a lot not just lane wise but game wise.

Professor Ward1 votes

{quoted}

To be fair if you play Zyra's plants right you can solo bot lane fairly easy or dominate. The consistent harassment with her plants can influence a lot not just lane wise but game wise.

most of the lane phases were me harassing while my ad free farmed, most early kills happen from a single burst of my adc after constant poke harass. zyras plants are tough to manage.

Teralisan1 votes

Kai'sa+Leona

Professor Ward4 votes

[{quoted}](name=hi ìm groot,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=TRBbU1cq,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-03-18T14:10:55.405+0000)

Only prob with zyra is she's a mage supp, and enchanter supps are really strong atm. Not really a big deal in most elos though because adc's can be mostly irrelevant to the win conditions anyways depending on the team comps, but usually it is better to have an ardent user.

ive noticed that while my adc isnt as viable as when i play full support enchanters, (i also main lulu) Zyra makes up for it in the form of actual dps, map control, and cc in fights.

She allows an almost hard mage carry from the support role, while still offering vision, cc, and map control.

If youre looking for something outside of the "buff my ad and hope he does well" then zyra is the way to go right now.

k wìx1 votes

As a diamond/plat support main, running into a well played support Zyra is absolutely terrifying. That being said, she has plenty of counters, and the meta is pretty set against AP damage supports right now.

A Well played Janna / Nami / Morgana will simply outclass her. That being said, she's in a pretty healthy state, in my opinion. Anyone saying she's unplayable is just completely out of touch with her.

Pandeonor1 votes

I began with league last year and made nearly all the time normals [just secured to be silver with some rankeds]. So I decided to do rankeds this year. Placed B1 and then within about 30 matches to Silver IV. In winnable matchups I actually end with an S (last matches 6 times a S in a row). My winrate was about 60% (before this terrible 3 matches today), gaining 23LP with a win and losing 16LP with a loss. I think I should not have problems to climb higher. My around 45 matches from B1 to S4 actually are not that much.

So, at least in low elo Zyra is fine.

Even there are quite different playstyles on her. Mine is different. I agree with some of your points. To know how to optimize her outcome is not as easy as it seems. But I would not agree that she is unkillable midgame. Even I would appreciate this :-). [slayer-jinx-catface]

Kynin1 votes

Loss of runes from last season hurt her a lot. She normally ran full magic pen which made her early damage huge. The only buff she has had since is the 40+ base damage on e at rank 5 so her early damage is much less making it more difficult to dominate lanes. Zyra's rework a few months ago added a large ammount of counterplay to her already weakened kit. She is literally impossible to play with some matchups (Corki hurts my soul...). With the plant health changes the plants can be accidently destroyed much easier.

The ap itemization changes were not kind to her. She lost the ability to get early magic pen without completely derailing her build. The new Liandre's feels great on her but does very little for burst. So we are left with a squishy sustain damage mage as support with many hard counters and irritating mechanics introduced so she could be a mid laner.

I question your decision to go Rhylais first but if it works it works. The most common builds in the Zyra mains groups I am apart of have either been going Liandrie's rush into Rhylais or double pen into Linandries.

TLDR: Her playstyle has changed from what I enjoyed so much about her. The meta has been terrible for her since this season started. A large amount of counterplay and hard counters were introduced and she lost a large amount of her early pressure due to the removal of runes and itemization changes.

Not unplayable but she is a mage with very little scaling without access to magic pen in a meta unsuited for her.

Edit: Found the link to a post a few weeks ago that better explains her issues in a way much better than I could. https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/73Hve4ve-repertoir-really-detailed-feedback-for-you-after-spamming-zyra-mid-for-few-days

Professor Ward1 votes

{quoted}

Loss of runes from last season hurt her a lot. She normally ran full magic pen which made her early damage huge. The only buff she has had since is the 40+ base damage on e at rank 5 so her early damage is much less making it more difficult to dominate lanes. Zyra's rework a few months ago added a large ammount of counterplay to her already weakened kit. She is literally impossible to play with some matchups (Corki hurts my soul...). With the plant health changes the plants can be accidently destroyed much easier.

The ap itemization changes were not kind to her. She lost the ability to get early magic pen without completely derailing her build. The new Liandre's feels great on her but does very little for burst. So we are left with a squishy sustain damage mage as support with many hard counters and irritating mechanics introduced so she could be a mid laner.

I question your decision to go Rhylais first but if it works it works. The most common builds in the Zyra mains groups I am apart of have either been going Liandrie's rush into Rhylais or double pen into Linandries.

TLDR: Her playstyle has changed from what I enjoyed so much about her. The meta has been terrible for her since this season started. A large amount of counterplay and hard counters were introduced and she lost a large amount of her early pressure due to the removal of runes and itemization changes.

Not unplayable but she is a mage with very little scaling without access to magic pen in a meta unsuited for her.

The reason im rushing rylais is because im valueing the free slow on poke, much much much higher than the miniscule burn damage from liandries for 500g cheaper as well.

Your overall burst doesnt change really at all, in fact rylais offers 5 more ap with an added slow and a faster powerspike. I dont see why you would ever buy liandries first. Especially when playing support.

Kynin1 votes

In the words of the great Melyn...

Utility is a lie there is only damage. Through damage I gain kills. Through kills I gain gold. Through gold I gain items. With items my kit is broken. The thorns shall free me from elo hell.

But in all seriousness Since Rhylais was nerfed it has not been seen as too viable on Zyra. Most Zyra mains stopped going it all together. Then when Liandrie's was changed and it seems like a better second item. It gives little damage and the slow given is hardly more than Zyra's vine lashers.

Professor Ward1 votes

{quoted}

In the words of the great Melyn...

Utility is a lie there is only damage. Through damage I gain kills. Through kills I gain gold. Through gold I gain items. With items my kit is broken. The thorns shall free me from elo hell.

But in all seriousness Since Rhylais was nerfed it has not been seen as too viable on Zyra. Most Zyra mains stopped going it all together. Then when Liandrie's was changed and it seems like a better second item. It gives little damage and the slow given is hardly more than Zyra's vine lashers.

Rylais just got a buff, and has more ap than liandries for 500 gold cheaper..... And as zyra you should almost 100% Avoid using vine lashers. Basically the only true problem with her kit, they are a noob trap. TheY have terrible attack animations and no range, there is basially no reason to use them and i only do on complete accident or if q is on cooldown in a tight spot.

Kynin1 votes

Zyra has terrible scalings so the 5 more ap means very little. She synergizes with Liandries well and Rhylais synergizes with Rhylais. The lesser price is nice but the item does little for lane pressure. Vine lashers are extremely helpful in laning phase in some situations. As I said previously there are many problems with her kit including the hard counters and how easy it is to kill her plants.

Professor Ward1 votes

{quoted}

Zyra has terrible scalings so the 5 more ap means very little. She synergizes with Liandries well and Rhylais synergizes with Rhylais. The lesser price is nice but the item does little for lane pressure. Vine lashers are extremely helpful in laning phase in some situations. As I said previously there are many problems with her kit including the hard counters and how easy it is to kill her plants.

Her scalings are 60-70%, about the same as a ton of mages, her plant scalings are terrbile, but they need to be. Landing her abilities is huge.

And i still stand by the rylais slow having better lane pressure than the burn on liandries. Making the enemy champion glow and slow every 6 seconds is more pressure than you think. It also has far better anti gank and anti pick potential. It increases her ult knockup potential immensely , and cost 500 less...

I cant trade all that for 1% damage over time, and the awkward passive, at the cost of 500 gold. I just dont see it. By the time liandries passive is doing anyhting, youve probably already harassed enough to capitalize or just straight burst with any other 80 ap item.

Kynin1 votes

I am not sure where you are getting your information. Her ult scaling is 70% which is low itself for an ultimate ability. Her q scaling is 60% and her e scaling is 50% much lower than most midlaners. Your 5 more ap gives... 2 more damage to her abilities. Liandres would give much more. Your vine lashers slow and your e roots so slows do not seem that important on her.

Zyra has the lowest base health in the game at 500. Liandries would add 5 more damage every second. The 5 ap adds 2. In the worst situation the Liandries burn does more damage. Champions would have more health by the time you buy it.

Can we move back to the problems in her kit? I was just questioning your build and I already said if it works for you it is fine.

Kynin1 votes

I found a post from about a month ago of Riot Repertir replying to a post about the plant changes. He listed some possible solutions to the problems so he believes there are problems with her kit.

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/G9MBq6tx-meddler-can-i-get-a-statement-on-how-you-think-your-changes-turned-out-to-be-after-6-patches

Pandeonor1 votes

I don´t agree that she scales bad. She scales well but go for lategame it is a choice wich has to be actively made and depends on playstyle.

Kynin1 votes

I never said she scales bad. I said she scales bad with ap. Her ap ratios are not the best which is why magic pen rush was the go to build and why Liandre's +Rhyalis are so common on her. The percentage health damage is far better than raw ap.

Pandeonor1 votes

Sorry then that I misunderstood. [slayer-jinx-catface]

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