Why are AD champs allowed to add massive burst into a single attack while mages have no counter?

xxxMadLionxxx··6 votes·596 views

item 3147 item 3142 item 3031 item 3087 item 3094 plus electrocute or Dark harvest will obliterate a mage, but an ADC has some hope buy building item 3812 or item 3072 item 3026 . Even with duskblade nerf, that is still a lethal combination.

Honestly item 3157 works well againsts spells but autoattacks are a different thing because as soon as you come out of the stasis, that auto attack is still waiting. item 3003 has a massive cooldown and has to be fully stacked.

The only option a mage has is to build several health AP items which isn't optimal.

Yet ADCs can deal with it without having to give up much?

24 Comments

Kaioko4 votes

Because for the most part an ADC has to sort of remain in range to use their auto attacks and inflict continuous damage. If I'm playing something like Veigar, I'm going to stun Q, W, R you then run the crap away while my spells come back up.

Nut on my Butt3 votes

Have you considered item 3047 ?

CrestfallenNight1 votes

Right, as if less than 50 armor is going to help xD

MorganFreemanBot1 votes

{quoted}

Right, as if less than 50 armor is going to help xD

Resists scale the hardest when you have less of them. Adding 50 armor ontop of 38 will have a much larger impact than 50 ontop of 238.

Also, item 3047 have a 10% damage reduction to basic attacks. They're literally the single strongest item against AA's in the entire game, and they're not very expensive.

JackMcSnipeyz2 votes

If you think Death dance stops an adc from being bursted you're wrong. No one builds bloodthirster. GA has an extreamly high CD.

If you call DD a defensive item, why arent mages health items defensive items?

Dont forget mages have some of the highest ranges in the game and a ton of utilitiey tied to their abilities.

Kanzler2 votes

Are you asking why a full build adc does a lot of damage to squishy mage?

The answer seems obvious

Zed genius2 votes

Name one champion that builds item 3147 item 3142 item 3031 item 3087 item 3094 with electrocute or dark harvest

xxxMadLionxxx1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Zed genius,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=TLcVvhwx,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2018-03-05T14:56:27.085+0000)

Name one champion that builds item 3147 item 3142 item 3031 item 3087 item 3094 with electrocute or dark harvest

Its called a Nuclear oneshot build. And there are several videos showing its effectiveness.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nSEGWBVSs6o https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKsCIYCaVVQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2Zq6P6GP8w https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_czGuw4c9fc

The point I'm making is that I'm okay with this build, its just there should be an item that counters it.

Zed genius1 votes

XD

Häxel1 votes

these builds are not even viabel and just for normal games. Compare item 3157 vs item 3026 :

  1. Zhonyas has 15 more Armor and protects you by that more.
  2. Zhonyas has the lower Itemcd and protects you by that more.
  3. Zhonyas has 70 Ap and 10% Cdr additional which is maybe not the best on Mages but definetly not the worst considering Mages scale with Ap, Cdr and maybe need a little Manapool. Guardian Angel has just 40 ad and is literaly the worst on Adcs considering Adc scale with Ad, As, Crit and maybe need a little bit Lifesteal.
  4. You give A LOT up by going Guardian Angel and currently only Vayne can allow this herself with the Ad she gets from ult and her playstyle beeing all time in Danger for Ga to proc while most adc stay in high Range and the Moment they die everyone else already died proberbly so Ga is not usefull.
  5. Even if Mages could also go item 3374 , item 3386 exists as Alternative if you have Ornn in your team.

Other defense items: Both: item 3047 item 3111

  1. Resistances:
  • Mages: item 3102 (item 3001²) [ item 3090 item 3170 ]
  • Adcs: item 3139² item 3156 ( item 3091 item 3025 )
  1. Health/Lifesteal/Reduc:
  • Mages: item 3027 item 3165 item 3151 item 3116 ( item 3152 item 3146 )
  • Adcs: item 3072 item 3812 item 3153 item 3046 ( item 3078 item 3814 )

Explanation: [] is obvius tt specific and the zhonyas/rabbadons repalcement. () is far more championspecific. Even if not in () the items can or should not be build on any champ (for exampel rylais and anivia). Conclusion: Adcs lead in having more Magicresistance choices but Mages have the Clear Healthadvantage which is good vs all kinds of Damage, even True Damage. While Adcs have lifesteal this gets countered hard by Grievius wounds (such as morellos has), Burst and CC. There are anti Burst patterns in Adc itemization yes, but htey not neutralize Burst complete, just weaken it a little. And by beeing cc they can't use lifestealautos to safe themself. Mages have the Health which is even under Burst effective as well as Zhonyas AND/OR Banshees to avoid CC or heavy Burstabilitys from certain Assassins or Juggernauts.

wildfox992 votes

{quoted}

these builds are not even viabel and just for normal games. Compare item 3157 vs item 3026 :

  1. Zhonyas has 15 more Armor and protects you by that more.
  2. Zhonyas has the lower Itemcd and protects you by that more.
  3. Zhonyas has 70 Ap and 10% Cdr additional which is maybe not the best on Mages but definetly not the worst considering Mages scale with Ap, Cdr and maybe need a little Manapool. Guardian Angel has just 40 ad and is literaly the worst on Adcs considering Adc scale with Ad, As, Crit and maybe need a little bit Lifesteal.
  4. You give A LOT up by going Guardian Angel and currently only Vayne can allow this herself with the Ad she gets from ult and her playstyle beeing all time in Danger for Ga to proc while most adc stay in high Range and the Moment they die everyone else already died proberbly so Ga is not usefull.
  5. Even if Mages could also go item 3374 , item 3386 exists as Alternative if you have Ornn in your team.

GA it's also cheaper,and its passive is far more stronger than zhonya's one (and in this case it can actually save you from an AA,zhonya/stopwatch means delaying your death by 2.5 sec)

Other defense items: Both: item 3047 item 3111

if just mages could build them without totally giving up their damage....

  1. Resistances:
  • Mages: item 3102 (item 3001²) [ item 3090 item 3170 ]
  • Adcs: item 3139² item 3156 ( item 3091 item 3025 )
  1. Health/Lifesteal/Reduc:
  • Mages: item 3027 item 3165 item 3151 item 3116 ( item 3152 item 3146 )
  • Adcs: item 3072 item 3812 item 3153 item 3046 ( item 3078 item 3814 )

actually RoA and rilay are more niche than protobelt and gublade


Conclusion: Adcs lead in having more Magicresistance choices but Mages have the Clear Healthadvantage which is good vs all kinds of Damage, even True Damage. While Adcs have lifesteal this gets countered hard by Grievius wounds (such as morellos has), Burst and CC. There are anti Burst patterns in Adc itemization yes, but htey not neutralize Burst complete, just weaken it a little. And by beeing cc they can't use lifestealautos to safe themself. Mages have the Health which is even under Burst effective as well as Zhonyas AND/OR Banshees to avoid CC or heavy Burstabilitys from certain Assassins or Juggernauts.

[zombie-brand-facepalm]

item 3812 : 30% damage reduction (you can easily sustain it back if it's as DPS,which against a burst champion means denying this damage),on 1800HP means it can block 540 damage alone,not to mention its lifesteal

item 3072 : 350 HP shield + 20% lifesteal

item 3046 : 12% damage reduction (on 1800 hp 216hp as damage reduction)


AP items : 300HP


considering those items give the same health if not more in shields/damage reduction,and yet they give offensive stats (like AD/AS/crit) like any other offensive item while allowing to sustain back the damage,while for AP you are giving up AP/CDR/mana and since ADs have less mandatory items,i wouldn't call it fair and idk how you can say AP items are better against burst

Häxel1 votes

if just mages could build them without totally giving up their damage....

Adcs and Ga is the same story if not far far more: item 3047 / item 3111 instead of item 3020 /item 3158 is not that bad of a trade considering you can have lategame more surviability and the penetration of item 3135 , item 3151 and/or item 3165 . Cdr also in other items and runes in it. item 3193 instead of item 3139 / item 3156 / item 3072 / item 3812 / item 3508 / item 3036 / item 3033 / 3rd item 3086 item is what?: You loose at least 10ad(item 3035 items) plus 35% bonusarmorpen and gw/healthdamage. Or you loose 40ad and the effects you nicely described below for dd and bt. Or you loose 30ad, 20% crit, 30%cdr, manapassive on er. Or you loose 30% crit, 30-45% as and 5%ms at least. Even compared to maw/mercurial (here you could speak on strong effects) you loose 10/25/30(with maw passive) ad and trade some mr for 30 armor that, to be fair, tabbis could give you also plus the tabbipassive and just a loose the 35%as on item 3006 (if you realy,r ealy need armor). Compare that to item 3157 that, again, gives you 70ap, 10%cdr and 45 armor (more as tabbis). THATS not soo bad.

GA it's also cheaper,and its passive is far more stronger than zhonya's one (and in this case it can actually save you from an AA,zhonya/stopwatch means delaying your death by 2.5 sec)

I already pointed out that no adc beside maybe Vayne builds ga. Even if it costs less the stats are not for adcs, ga is far better for bruisers or ad assassins. Same time every amge if he plays vs a Zed or Talon can easily go Zhonyas. He can even have the rune Perfect Timing to have a free item 2419 and Zhonyas costs them 250 Gold less. Or go magical footwear and free boots, 300 Gold not spend which is availabel for other items like Zhonyas as well. If an adc still runs perfect timing or has run it in the past he never insists to build a cheaper, better ga. He uses it for a saver laning phase and than sell it again.

item 3812 : 30% damage reduction (you can easily sustain it back if it's as DPS,which against a burst champion means denying this damage),on 1800HP means it can block 540 damage alone,not to mention its lifesteal item 3072 : 350 HP shield + 20% lifesteal item 3046 : 12% damage reduction (on 1800 hp 216hp as damage reduction) AP items : 300HP

Also why do you point out that ga is cheaper as Zhonyas (i could repeat myself that no adc buys this) and then act as these items are free? Beside pd (which only redceds the damage of the person you last attacked: 1 out of 5, you have to hit him, an invis talon or you cc makes this hard) every Ad defense item is more expensive as every ap defense or health item. DD and BT are literaly some of the most expensive items. You can argue that Zealitems are to strong but Mages get their Defense so much cheaper. And Banshees/zhonyas not only give 70 Ap and 45arm/60mr, they also give 10% cdr and that s a direct damage and utility increase too: You can spam your abilitys more. Even on full cdr transcendence would give 20 additional ap so you would even be higher as most ap items. Ga gives crapy ad, only 30 armor and no crit or as to boost additional damage. Mercurial only gives 35mr and no as or crit to boost damage. Wits end only gives as but no ad, 40 mr and just gets effective in longer fights while also is far more niche as zhonyas (but kinda even more common as ga on adcs). And maw has 45mr but its real effectivness just starts if the shield plobs to burst magic damage so it gives you more ad and some ls/sv well.

considering those items give the same health if not more in shields/damage reduction,and yet they give offensive stats (like AD/AS/crit) like any other offensive item while allowing to sustain back the damage,while for AP you are giving up AP/CDR/mana and since ADs have less mandatory items,i wouldn't call it fair and idk how you can say AP items are better against burst

[zombie-brand-facepalm] [zombie-brand-mindblown]

You want me to give a list of stat tradeoffs? ok fine, here on mages and adcs the 10 most used defensive items: item 3157 : 70Ap, Cdr (offensive), Armor (defensive), stasis (both, can be used to wait for mana/cd) item 3102 : 70Ap, Cdr (offensive), Magic Resistance, passive (defensive) item 3001 : Mana, Cdr, Aura (offensive), Health, Magic Resistance (defensive), Eternity (both) item 3027 : 100Ap, Mana (offensive), Health (defensive), Eternity (both) item 3151 : 80Ap, Madness, Tornment (offensive), Health (defensive) item 3165 : 80Ap, Pen, Gw (offensive), Health (defensive) item 3116 : 85Ap (offensive), Health (defensive), Slow (both, especialy strong with Liandrys) item 3152 : 60Ap, Cdr (offensive), Health (defensive), Fire Bolt (both) item 3146 : 80Ap, 40Ad (offensive), Omniheal (defensive), Ligthning Bolt (both) item 3040 : 50Ap, Cdr, Mana, Awe (offensive), Mana Shield (defensive) Average: 3 offensive tradeoffs per item, 1.8 defensive tradeoffs. Average cost 2930 Gold

item 3026 : 40Ad (offensive), Armor, Passive (defensive) item 3156 : 50/70Ad, Cdr (offensive), Magic Resistance, Lifeline, Ls&Sp (defensive) item 3139 : 65Ad (offensive), Ls (defensive), Qss (both, especialy with the ms) item 3091 : 42onhit, As (offensive), Magic Resistance (defensive), passive (both) item 3153 : 40Ad, As, 8%onhit (offensive), Ls (defensive), active (both) item 3812 : 80Ad, Cdr (offensive), 2 passives (defensive) item 3072 : 80Ad (offensive), Ls, passive (defensive) item 3046 : Crit, As (offensive), Lament (defensive), Spectral walz&Ms (both) item 3814 : 55Ad, Lethalaty (offensive), Health (defensive), active (both) item 3022 : 30Ad (offensive), Health (defensive), Slow (both) Average: 2.3 offensive tradeoffs per item, 2.1 defensive tradeoffs. Average cost 3105 Gold

So Ap items always give min 2, max 4 offensive stats/abilitys and min 1, max 3 defensive stats/effects while Ad items give min 1, max 3 offensive stats and 2 defensive stats/passives, 3 on Maw. BUT: Adcs values Ad/As/Crit high. Most items only give one of them. If they give some other offesnive stat like cdr than that is fine but has nearly the same value as the 40 Ad on Gunblade for a Lb. Also while Ap have not so much ways to get Heahlthsustain, Adcs have not so much ways to get Health.

Adcs have maybe to much strengths like not beeing so dependent to mana or cds, zeal ms, the ability to sustain back. But at the same time they have also weaknesses like small health pools and that Gw, CC and Burst makes most times the sustain not so effective.

The REALY BIG DIFFRENCE lies in Supports. Adcs tend tos tay around them and they give them additional shields, heals, damage reduction, health (hello lulu), cc enemies, even ad, as, onhit which profits just adcs more. I would say that adc itemization is mostly (not enitrely, zealitems like pd are defiently a problem) fair in the direct 1v1, but adcs are never realy alone and supports have such an high impact to not only add some power but realy multiply the power of an adc while mages just have their items for the main part.

Eedat5 votes

You need to stop taking clickbait so seriously. Those vids are a masters player smurfing in like gold

paisy1 votes

{quoted}

Its called a Nuclear oneshot build. And there are several videos showing its effectiveness.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nSEGWBVSs6o https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKsCIYCaVVQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2Zq6P6GP8w https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_czGuw4c9fc

The point I'm making is that I'm okay with this build, its just there should be an item that counters it.

Wow time to use this build on Thresh Akali Soraka in my ranked games for some freelo!

Critmaster Garen1 votes

mages have stopwatch and zonyas against assassins.

theyre expected to work off their long range and utility and not get into position to get bursted by the assassin too many times. assassins have more ways to deal with mage damage, like through item 3155 because mages are in an inherently advantageous position with their spell range. theyre able to poke and apply damage to the assassin much more repeatedly than the assassin can deal back at them, while they can potentially burst their opponent in a similar fashion.

the difference in defense on assassin items vs. mage items is compensation for the melee vs. range disadvantage.

as far as marksmen go, everybody knows their items are retarded, and riot just doesnt do anything about it.

Malix Farwin1 votes

Normally i would complain about it but every single instance that mages had strong burst people complained until they got nerfed. It has literally happened to every burst mage.

Ralik0981 votes

Veigar still lives.

Devilreaper XIII1 votes

because ghostcrawler didn't want to make the same mistake he made in WoW .o.

IMAGIRAFFE1 votes

Well the max AD on a champion is held by Jhin who can have just over 1k and crit for over 2k while a mage can have around 2k ability power (with runes and not permanent) and yet have so much scaling it's ridiculous so it wouldn't be fair to have a 5k damage mage crit. If you want this much AD then you can't build attack speed or even boots while mages have items that give them AP and HP, while AD has life steal instead of extra HP. An AD's HP is their life steal because they don't have items with 60-80 AD with HP. Mages also have Mana items which also give AP. AD needs to rely on either life steal or quickly killing before they get killed. Mages have shorter CDR and more mana so I would say that it is balanced.

Nyarlathοtep1 votes

wait WAIT WAT WHAT? 2000 ap?! When in the seven HELLS are you even reaching this number?! Unless you are against bots with veigar or having everyone to boost your ap. Do you even play lol?

IMAGIRAFFE1 votes

Watch bunnyfufuu he reached 6k on veigar and around 2.3k on karthus with runes and yes I do play lol, anyways here's his channel:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCv7PqO2lW3eK16sQngYPwsA

Nyarlathοtep

Οh boy you are bronze to the core now dont you. ( just so we dont misunderstood here somethings, i dont like rank shaming, but there are times when the bronze inside us takes over of our mind and perception) Both of the instances that he does gets that much ap is when games reach 1 hour. Most games dont last that long. 2nd of all, no you wont reach that time in an competitive match. I cant say for sure since i dont know the guy, but it looks like his enemies prolong the game intentionally. Also in both of his games he has the most kills, meaning he is coordinated with his team to let him get the kills. And finally, THIS WONT HAPPEN IN A MATCH WHERE BOTH TEAMS WANT TO WIN. Your ENEMIES WONT let you reach that ap even if you can. ( especially with veigar it looks staged. Just look at his stacks 2k+ stacks? wtf were his enemies doing.)

GodlyBane1 votes

assassins are assassins... they do this to squishies..

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