A polite reply to the popular topic "A champions counter play Shouldn't"

So a recent topic has gotten quite popular and it's stating a point, with respectable examples and arguments that a champions counterplay should not revolve around the player themselves playing "stupid". Within the posters examples they use the following champions as their examples.

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Quote "_ It's Twitch/Janna vs Tristana/Blitzcrank. Every time your Janna tries to engage on Tristana, she uses her W, and Blitzcrank follows up by hooking you or Janna. When your jungler finally ganks, Tristana ults the jungler, and W's away. At least you can 1 shot her in the lategame, right?_"-Prince of Uganda

"This is why people complain about Vayne and Tristana, because they pump out insane burst, yes, BURST, while also being some of the safest champions in the game."-Prince of Uganda

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"You sit under your tower for 10-15 minutes before you finally get out of lane. All throughout lane you get poked by Vayne if you try to farm. If you ever try to engage, she uses her Condemn and Tumbles back, so you can practically never engage on her."

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##IS Vayne really the best choice for your argument?

Noticing how you only mentioned adcs atm, I am getting the vibes you share a belief with me that Marksman should be characters with very limited mobility that focus on reliable damage over time, utilizing the attack speed stat to the fullest. You do not believe that marksman should be capable of doing insane amounts of burst while having so many tools of safety. I believe a large majority of adcs fit this description quite well, while some escape this vision while being given their own flaws. However I feel it's abit unfair to mention Vayne for Vayne at the moment is in clear questioning of balance and is soon to be me updated by Riot. Honestly Vayne is her own can of warms that deserves a whole topic of her own. If your argument is purely about a character shouldn't be defined by the player in terms of weakness, than I really don't think Vayne is the best example.

#You only mention Marksman while forgetting all their flaws

Marksman are squishy, marksman can be nuked. Whenever Syndra is meta, or any other legit burst mage, if the Syndra or Lux get a single moment alone with the ADC they can quickly nuke them with a single button on that nice big fat R key. Marksman can quite easily be killed especially in a solo environment where Tanks constantly forget to peel for adcs. It's honestly why Rengar is one of my all time favorite junglers, because I can pick apart adcs at any moment. Adcs have a weakness it's called players like me, who love the assassin picks, who love bursty mages, and we know how to get ontop of our targets. If anything the games I lose I largely put on the blame of myself for my inability to find a chance to kill the marksman. So while your topic gives the myth that Vayne and Tristana just seem Godly unkillable, you make your debate extremely unfair and biased, by mentioning circumstances they were assured success while avoiding the flaws they would have against things like a Zed or a Syndra, or a very fed Rengar Or hell even just a maoki who can just do flash guarantee snare. Or hell a Garen flashing onto you, silencing the adc, doing his annoying spin and Boom, dead adc. [garen-swing]

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But further more, what about the actual idea? #Should a champions weakness be "how bad the player is"? [sg-lux-2]

Honestly in game design I believe a video game character should work like this.

-They should be fun -Both players should feel like they have a chance to win -You should avoid a character being overly simple -They should have depth -They should have a core weakness that is just as obvious as their core strength. -The same weakness should be just as easy to abuse as it is for them to abuse their strength -They should be capable of creating their own windows of oppurtunity.

So I firmly believe a good character when properly designed in his role, should be capable of winning in a large variety of scenarios, they should have a toolkit that can allow outplays, and win scenarios where one thought they couldn't. I feel this is fairly easy to accomplish on games like street fighter through a designers perspective. Mainly because you are doing strictly one v one scenarios against a cast of no more than 50 characters, some these days as low as 20. That means the job of the designer is much easier, for all they have to do is pick up their idea and ask themselves "well how should this person fight, and how would the compare to the rest of his characters". However in a Moba this is much more complicated to accomplish. Largely because we have over 100 characters, and in a moba allowing someone to be "counter picked" is part of the balance. For example if tanks like Ranmus did not exist, champions like Rengar or Kha Zix would feel brutally over bearing. Whichi Brings me up into my next point that revists an old point.

#You Only Mentioned Favorable Scenarios For The Vayne And Tristana A vayne will DESTROY Darius any day of the weak during lane phase if the Vayne plays proper, a Tristana will live easily in a scenario such as the one you mentioned, For Janna simply isn't a pick making Support, she's a Peeling shielder Support with ability that can sometimes result in pick making. Let me reverse the supports now.

vs

Janna is playing very safe for she knows if she gets hit by a blitz hook, she will be gone in seconds.Twitch throws out his W to slow down the tristana, Blitz crank hooks Tristana becaue she is slowed and a easier target, Tristana attempts to jump away but before she can even press her own button Blitz uses ult to silence her and knock her up. During this time Twitch activates his ult and starts going ham onto the tristana to than quickly activate E. Tristana dies within 2 seconds which was far to fast for Janna to react properly. Tristana in this scenario can get silenced, she can get her Jump canceled by blitz crank hook, she can get bursted by twitch. Janna is not able to do much of anything and has to play far back to avoid blitzcrank hooks. So you see how we get a completely different story the moment we switch the supports?

#But back to the point! Conclusion!

What are my thoughts on counter play and should it depend largely on the player? My answer is yes, but I simply dont think at the same time it's possible on a game like league of legends, where part of the way champions are balanced, is to make sure counter picks exist. A champion should have a garden of tools to escape many scenarios and come out ontop, to get that highlight, but at the same time a weakness should be given. I feel riot for the most part has already accomplished this, and in all the scenarios you mentioned, were nothing more than simply being counter picked. Honestly people are just upset that Vayne is meta again, I get that, But the Vayne issue itself I feel is it's whole field of warms deserving of it's own topic. I honestly would love to go deeper into this discussion by mentioning champs like Yasuo or Zed, but I feel this topic has drawn on long enough already and has somewhat derailed. But I do hope this gets people thinking about counter play and balancing.

[galio-happy]