PBE Dragon not only ignores Pantheon passive but it also reduces the damage you deal to it

Kingsgrave·Dec 3, 2014·12 votes·3,174 views

to clarify: dragon autos are coded as spells now And it not only deals damage over time but reduces the damage you deal to dragon. Pantheon also had his AS reduced to .625 from .679

Combined with the heavy AS nerf to Pantheon's base stats makes him unable to even consider doing dragon now let alone clear well at all

also the first dragon bonus on PBE is only 6% more AD and AP instead of 8% so its even less important to get dragon early

58 Comments

IgotlazyDec 3, 201412 votes

Good. Dragon is extremely powerful right now. Especially that first buff it gives. Being able to take it so early shouldn't be a thing.

KingsgraveDec 4, 20145 votes

Good. Dragon is extremely powerful right now. Especially that first buff it gives. Being able to take it so early shouldn't be a thing.

This ruins his ability to ever actually do dragon. Ever. His clear and laning are worse now

Lord DusteonDec 4, 20142 votes

Good. Dragon is extremely powerful right now. Especially that first buff it gives. Being able to take it so early shouldn't be a thing.

Assuming 100 AD, you get 8 AD out of it, which is less than a long sword.

Otherwise, the solution to early dragons being strong is not to completely gut one of the best early dragon getters, making them have a hard time even getting dragon normally.

IgotlazyDec 4, 20146 votes

Good. Dragon is extremely powerful right now. Especially that first buff it gives. Being able to take it so early shouldn't be a thing.

Assuming 100 AD, you get 8 AD out of it, which is less than a long sword.

Otherwise, the solution to early dragons being strong is not to completely gut one of the best early dragon getters, making them have a hard time even getting dragon normally.

Isn't Dragon supposed to be taken on as a team of at least 2-3 people pre-20min? Sneaking in and taking the thing solo is fine. What isn't fine is a powerful buff such as a Tier 1 Dragon being obtained at ~3 minutes by 1 champ. Pantheon by himself shouldn't be able to get it that early. That's the point.

Lord DusteonDec 4, 20145 votes

Good. Dragon is extremely powerful right now. Especially that first buff it gives. Being able to take it so early shouldn't be a thing.

Assuming 100 AD, you get 8 AD out of it, which is less than a long sword.

Otherwise, the solution to early dragons being strong is not to completely gut one of the best early dragon getters, making them have a hard time even getting dragon normally.

Isn't Dragon supposed to be taken on as a team of at least 2-3 people pre-20min? Sneaking in and taking the thing solo is fine. What isn't fine is a powerful buff such as a Tier 1 Dragon being obtained at ~3 minutes by 1 champ. Pantheon by himself shouldn't be able to get it that early. That's the point.

Early dragons aren't a new thing you know. Fiddlesticks, anyone with spirit stone + feral, and several others were known for their early dragons.

Otherwise, the buff ISN'T that powerful early. Having an extra 5+ AD in lane is not going to make a difference often. Even if it did, the solution would NOT be going "hey there's this one visible early dragon getter, let's completely remove his shield vs dragon and severely nerf his attack speed".

IgotlazyDec 4, 20143 votes

Good. Dragon is extremely powerful right now. Especially that first buff it gives. Being able to take it so early shouldn't be a thing.

Assuming 100 AD, you get 8 AD out of it, which is less than a long sword.

Otherwise, the solution to early dragons being strong is not to completely gut one of the best early dragon getters, making them have a hard time even getting dragon normally.

Isn't Dragon supposed to be taken on as a team of at least 2-3 people pre-20min? Sneaking in and taking the thing solo is fine. What isn't fine is a powerful buff such as a Tier 1 Dragon being obtained at ~3 minutes by 1 champ. Pantheon by himself shouldn't be able to get it that early. That's the point.

Early dragons aren't a new thing you know. Fiddlesticks, anyone with spirit stone + feral, and several others were known for their early dragons.

Otherwise, the buff ISN'T that powerful early. Having an extra 5+ AD in lane is not going to make a difference often. Even if it did, the solution would NOT be going "hey there's this one visible early dragon getter, let's completely remove his shield vs dragon and severely nerf his attack speed".

Maybe I am overshooting the benefits of the buff, however you can't deny the fact that about 30 seconds after the laning phase started, suddenly it's an uphill battle. It seems a bit silly honestly. Also didn't they only chop off a 0.05 of a second? I don't think I would call it THAT severe.

Lord DusteonDec 4, 20144 votes

Maybe I am overshooting the benefits of the buff, however you can't deny the fact that about 30 seconds after the laning phase started, suddenly it's an uphill battle. It seems a bit silly honestly. Also didn't they only chop off a 0.05 of a second? I don't think I would call it THAT severe.

From .679 to .625. While .054 of a second doesn't seem like much, remember that this affects all AS he gets (mainly from levels + runes), which nerfs his clear and shield. In addition, if dragon is skipping his shield entirely he's going to have a hard time killing it to begin with.

KingsgraveDec 4, 20141 votes

Good. Dragon is extremely powerful right now. Especially that first buff it gives. Being able to take it so early shouldn't be a thing.

Assuming 100 AD, you get 8 AD out of it, which is less than a long sword.

Otherwise, the solution to early dragons being strong is not to completely gut one of the best early dragon getters, making them have a hard time even getting dragon normally.

and on the PBE its 6% not 8%

JunkοDec 4, 20141 votes

Every 10 AAs you deal 80 bonus dmg. That early game is pretty strong.

MartyrofsandDec 4, 20141 votes

It isn't that the dragon buff makes you individually powerful, its that the buff goes across your entire team and provides a scaling modifier the enemy team can't match until they get a dragon of their own. There is a reason right now the team that gets the first dragon wins over 70% of the time.

Mikal PikalDec 4, 20141 votes

If I remember the stats correctly, it was only like a 2% increase when compared with getting the 1st season 4 drag, If anything, getting 1 st drag makes it that much easier to get up to 5 drags which is basically an auto win at this point.

Kuroi86Dec 4, 20148 votes

Dragon is extremely powerful right now. Especially that first buff it gives.

facepalm 8% AD/AP You need 130 AD before the buff gives you as much as a long sword. You need about double that for AP to give you as much as an amp tome. Do the math.

IgotlazyDec 4, 20144 votes

Dragon is extremely powerful right now. Especially that first buff it gives.

facepalm 8% AD/AP You need 130 AD before the buff gives you as much as a long sword. You need about double that for AP to give you as much as an amp tome. Do the math.

It's still free stats. That over a long fight will build up. Small differences in items (such as a long sword) will make a difference in early fights.

Kuroi86Dec 4, 20147 votes

It's still free stats. That over a long fight will build up. Small differences in items (such as a long sword) will make a difference in early fights.

Which is what it's meant to do.
Dragon is meant to be a reward for good playing. To say it's too strong early is to say that a long sword or bf sword is all you need to win lane.

Wînter FoxDec 4, 20148 votes

Yes, Dragon is meant to be a reward for good playing in a team game. Not good at clicking Pantheon in champ select.

Kuroi86Dec 4, 20144 votes

Or Fiddlesticks or Nunu or Wukong or Warwick or Shaco...

JunkοDec 4, 20141 votes

An ADC has a long sword and another ADC has a long sword and first Dragon buff(aka another long sword)

Who will win?

Kuroi86Dec 4, 20142 votes

Draven DUH!

RoyaiChaosDec 4, 20142 votes

Assuming all adcs have the same amount of base ad/as/range/etc...

JunkοDec 4, 20142 votes

Assuming all junglers can solo drag at level 2

oooooooooh wait

QuephaDec 4, 20141 votes

facepalm 8% AD/AP You need 130 AD before the buff gives you as much as a long sword. You need about double that for AP to give you as much as an amp tome. Do the math.

didn't old dragon not even give half the gold value of a long sword? doesn't this scale MUCH better into lategame?

Kuroi86Dec 4, 20145 votes

didn't old dragon not even give half the gold value of a long sword? doesn't this scale MUCH better into lategame?

Exactly!
It's meant to scale into late game, especially if you can get that fabled fifth dragon. Everyone complaining that this buff snowballs too hard early game hasn't done a lick of math. The dragon buff is meant to be for the late game team. If you're against a strong early team that is pushing towers, then sneaking dragon can help you pull back from behind. If your team excels early but falls off late, then pushing for dragons in mid game can help mitigate the fall off and give you a fighting chance instead of seeing the game do a full 180. It's meant to be a high priority for the late game.

QuephaDec 4, 20141 votes

didn't old dragon not even give half the gold value of a long sword? doesn't this scale MUCH better into lategame?

Exactly!
It's meant to scale into late game, especially if you can get that fabled fifth dragon. Everyone complaining that this buff snowballs too hard early game hasn't done a lick of math. The dragon buff is meant to be for the late game team. If you're against a strong early team that is pushing towers, then sneaking dragon can help you pull back from behind. If your team excels early but falls off late, then pushing for dragons in mid game can help mitigate the fall off and give you a fighting chance instead of seeing the game do a full 180. It's meant to be a high priority for the late game.

but it also seems to give more damage than old dragon gave right when you get it. so it's exactly the same when you get it and way stronger every minute thereafter.

Kuroi86Dec 4, 20141 votes

but it also seems to give more damage than old dragon gave right when you get it. so it's exactly the same when you get it and way stronger every minute thereafter.

It may give more, but it's hardly noticeable early on. You may notice 5-8 more AD/AP if you have about 100 AD/AP when doing dragon. Honestly until you hit 130 AD/AP then you won't even gain a full 10 AD/AP from the buff.

QuephaDec 4, 20141 votes

but it also seems to give more damage than old dragon gave right when you get it. so it's exactly the same when you get it and way stronger every minute thereafter.

It may give more, but it's hardly noticeable early on. You may notice 5-8 more AD/AP if you have about 100 AD/AP when doing dragon. Honestly until you hit 130 AD/AP then you won't even gain a full 10 AD/AP from the buff.

but that still makes it AT LEAST as snowbally as old dragon in the early game and MORE snowbally from every point in the game afterwards, that averages out to more snowbally than old dragon. and we're not even talking about how the rest of the dragon effects can lead to even more powerful advantages.

Kuroi86Dec 4, 20141 votes

If 10 AD/AP is all it takes to snowball a game then it was completely locked up as is and the team that got dragon deserves the advantage for taking the risk.

RoyaiChaosDec 4, 20141 votes

Ehh, it's also done so that the team that missed the first dragon is pressured to get the next one before late game comes.

Thee ZerODec 5, 20141 votes

130 AD is definitely possible after your first back. If you and the enemy ADC both back and bring back BF Swords, you will be bringing back a BF and a longsword for free, which is a decently large advantage just for your jungler being better than the enemy jungler.

Kuroi86Dec 5, 20141 votes

So... a good team should be punished for keeping track of and taking dragon early and a bad team should be rewarded for not warding and letting the enemy team take dragon?

Fed by Snu SnuDec 4, 20145 votes

The pantheon nerfs were just overkill and once again show knee jerk reactions on riot's part.

As if the dragon ignoring the passive alone isn't a solution.

Then again, they also nerfed WW's steroid for some reason.

Let's just gut everything.

KingsgraveDec 4, 20141 votes

The pantheon nerfs were just overkill and once again show knee jerk reactions on riot's part.

As if the dragon ignoring the passive alone isn't a solution.

Then again, they also nerfed WW's steroid for some reason.

Let's just gut everything.

WW gives AS to everyone on basically no gap if he has 40% cdr

Fed by Snu SnuDec 4, 20141 votes

So what? That has never been a problem in his kit. It's only the on-hit interraction that got him over the top again, as it happened with the old feral flare.

Kuroi86Dec 4, 20142 votes

This seriously makes no sense. Is Riot planning to nerf every champ that can solo drag before six?

KingsgraveDec 4, 20141 votes

This seriously makes no sense. Is Riot planning to nerf every champ that can solo drag before six?

well now he cant ever solo dragon so I guess master plan?

Bears Dont CareDec 4, 20142 votes

He can still solo it, but its not easy he will actually take damage and possibly die. My concern is that this affects his clear speed in the jungle. A better alternative is to simply halve the damage dragon does, and increase its attack speed by two.

KingsgraveDec 4, 20143 votes

He can still solo it, but its not easy he will actually take damage and possibly die. My concern is that this affects his clear speed in the jungle. A better alternative is to simply halve the damage dragon does, and increase its attack speed by two.

He can't solo it since dragon attacks cant ever be blocked

YakasDec 4, 20142 votes

Wait so they nerf Pantheon and take off his ability to block a dragon attack?

Why the nerf? His ult is already useless enough unless in a perfect situation... His early game isn't even the best. I don't get it.

BeatzBoyFTWDec 4, 20142 votes

Isn't that Riot's purpose of nerfing Pantheon's AS? To not make solo drags like last season?

KingsgraveDec 4, 20144 votes

Isn't that Riot's purpose of nerfing Pantheon's AS? To not make solo drags like last season?

but why nerf his AS AND make it impossible for him to block it?

BeatzBoyFTWDec 4, 20142 votes

Dude, do you even understand shit?

Nerf Attack Speed = Now won't block every dragon attacks.

KingsgraveDec 4, 20143 votes

Dude, do you even understand shit?

Nerf Attack Speed = Now won't block every dragon attacks.

They nerfed his AS and made it impossible for him to block dragon autos because they are now coded as spells

BeatzBoyFTWDec 4, 20145 votes

Wait, dragon's attacks are now on-spell hits? Didn't heard that part, mb. Yeah, now I kinda agree that attack speed Pantheon is a little too much now :p

CozarkianDec 4, 20142 votes

Coded as spells? Does that mean Fiora can't parry a dragon attack?

Tis a nice dayDec 4, 20141 votes

I assume it'd work on Sivir's and nocturn's spell shield now though. Free mana for Sivir every time she passes river :D

KesseranDec 4, 20141 votes

Am i the only one that now realizes that Soraka and Morgana are even more important? It's a change to Pantheon but he can still 2 man it with a Morg or Soraka. Enough pots, well timed heals/shields can still allow it. Realistically everyone can 2 man it with a morg or soraka now.