Other than Darius, name a 'weak' Bruiser.

Bouncemaster Zac·Jan 10, 2018·12 votes·1,939 views

The Boards have been full of "Bruisers as a class are so weak that they're worthless!" threads since the start of preseason, and I can't seem to wrap my head around how or why when Bruisers, as a class, make up the majority of the highest winrate Champions right now. I'd really love to know what Bruisers are so weak that the whole class needs buffed like people have been suggesting.

Hell, even Darius, the current posterboy for weak bruisers atm is sitting at 49% while maintaining his usual playrates and a high banrate.

53 Comments

ŚhunpoJan 10, 201815 votes

Riven, Aatrox, Tryndamere, Trundle, Mordekaiser, Olaf/Camille (because they're not functioning as intended), Garen, Illaoi (due to Klepto abuse), Jax (when sent top lane), Renekton (lul below 50% winrate) and....did I mention Aatrox?

Bouncemaster ZacJan 10, 201814 votes

{quoted}

Riven, Aatrox, Tryndamere, Trundle, Mordekaiser, Olaf/Camille (because they're not functioning as intended), Garen, Illaoi (due to Klepto abuse), Jax (when sent top lane), Renekton (lul below 50% winrate) and....did I mention Aatrox?

Riven, Trynd, and arguably Aatrox aren't bruisers, they're light fighters than build almost entirely damage. Also Aatrox is doing better than he usually does right now (he's at 51%) so you're just outright wrong on that one. Same with Garen, 51%, stronger than he usually is. Illaoi isn't just doing well, she's at 53% and is one of the top 10 Champions right now so objectively wrong again. Jax, Riven, and Camille are all almost at an even 50. You're wrong on all but like two counts. Bruisers are fine; maybe even too strong atm.

SithesisLordJan 10, 20186 votes

aren't bruisers, they're light fighters than build almost entirely damage.

Despite Riot's new class system making defining champion classes much more accurately, basically almost everything that isn´t a tank and isn´t a marksman/assassin/Kayle/Teemo/mage is a bruiser.

So basically from Riven to Irelia and even Nasus are bruisers, again, despite the more accurate class system Riot came up with.

Bouncemaster ZacJan 10, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Despite Riot's new class system making defining champion classes much more accurately, basically almost everything that isn´t a tank and isn´t a marksman/assassin/Kayle/Teemo/mage is a bruiser.

So basically from Riven to Irelia and even Nasus are bruisers, again, despite the more accurate class system Riot came up with.

Nasus and Irelia have always been bruisers though. They're innately durable on top of having high damage. Trynd and Riven are not, and build fuck-all for defense. A 4-crit item melee adc is not a Bruiser.

SithesisLordJan 10, 20182 votes

Which is why Riot came up with the new class system.

Nasus is a Juggernaut because he can be easily kited and doesn´t possess hard CC, but a shit ton of damage to compensate.

Irelia is a Diver because her specialty is diving backlines/turrets.

Riven and Trynd are Skirmishers, which build mostly full damage, focus on sustained mostly damage and have some form of sustain.

Bouncemaster ZacJan 10, 20183 votes

{quoted}

Which is why Riot came up with the new class system.

Nasus is a Juggernaut because he can be easily kited and doesn´t possess hard CC, but a shit ton of damage to compensate.

Irelia is a Diver because her specialty is diving backlines/turrets.

Riven and Trynd are Skirmishers, which build mostly full damage, focus on sustained mostly damage and have some form of sustain.

Well yeah, I just don't feel it's accurate to call skirmishers a subclass of Bruiser. I feel they're closer to assassins due to their damage, mobility, and lack of durability. I mean, which is Trynd more similar to: Yi, or Garen?

Either way this is semantics. The point of my thread is that Bruisers are doing great right now but everyone is crying they need buffs because Vayne happens to be op atm.

NemeBroJan 10, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=Bouncemaster Zac,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=T3oGYuQu,comment-id=000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-01-10T08:15:43.404+0000)

Well yeah, I just don't feel it's accurate to call skirmishers a subclass of Bruiser. I feel they're closer to assassins due to their damage, mobility, and lack of durability. I mean, which is Trynd more similar to: Yi, or Garen?

Either way this is semantics. The point of my thread is that Bruisers are doing great right now but everyone is crying they need buffs because Vayne happens to be op atm.

Yi isn't an assassin, he's a skirmisher, so of course Tryndamere is more similar to Yi lol.

Bouncemaster ZacJan 10, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Yi isn't an assassin, he's a skirmisher, so of course Tryndamere is more similar to Yi lol.

Yi has literally always been classified as an Assassin.

NemeBroJan 10, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Bouncemaster Zac,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=T3oGYuQu,comment-id=00000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-01-10T08:26:00.564+0000)

Yi has literally always been classified as an Assassin.

Yi was classified as an assassin under the older, outdated classification model, simply because he had more in common with assassins than fighters.

Now he's classified as a skirmisher.

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/developer-corner/3A5uuBw7-champion-subclass-list

List is a bit outdated, but the only change to the skirmisher class is that Ekko was shunted over to the assassin class where he belongs. Yi is a high DPS melee carry with less versatile and reliable backline access than assassins but packing some mechanics in his kit to survive team fights (theoretically, he's hot garbage right now so he tends to just die). Like a skirmisher.

Z3SleeperJan 10, 20181 votes

Well, Skirmishers are a grab bag of mixed potential. But none of them really excel in anything but skirmishing. Moreso a subclass of Fighter which more accurately confers association with skirmishing than the term "Bruiser" does. Probably why "Bruiser" was a term done away with. Bruiser was essentially the term to define Divers and Juggernauts, but never Skirmishers.

And yeah it is semantics. Idk why that guy brought this up at all.

GayFluffyUnicornJan 10, 20183 votes

You say bruiser are doing GREAT and all you can come up with are 50% winrates. Yeah. It's an issue that goes way beyond winrate statistics.

Eternal TormentJan 10, 20181 votes

Actually Nasus and Irelia have been reclassified as Juggernauts. Nasus specifically a Raid Boss subclass and Irelia was the other one, whos Name i just can't remember.

NemeBroJan 10, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Eternal Torment,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=T3oGYuQu,comment-id=00000000000000000001,timestamp=2018-01-10T08:13:34.937+0000)

Actually Nasus and Irelia have been reclassified as Juggernauts. Nasus specifically a Raid Boss subclass and Irelia was the other one, whos Name i just can't remember.

Nasus is a juggernaut. Irelia is a diver, more akin to Xin Zhao or Camille.

Eternal TormentJan 10, 20181 votes

yeah....it's really hard to Keep track of all These classes. it was easier when we just had Fighter, Tank, Assassin, Marksman and Support...

MordepoolJan 10, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Eternal Torment,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=T3oGYuQu,comment-id=00000000000000000001,timestamp=2018-01-10T08:13:34.937+0000)

Actually Nasus and Irelia have been reclassified as Juggernauts. Nasus specifically a Raid Boss subclass and Irelia was the other one, whos Name i just can't remember.

Irelia is a diver

Z3SleeperJan 10, 20183 votes

Yasuo is a bruiser confirmed /s.

Why are we talking about classification again? Pretty sure the old usage of the word "Bruiser" was used to define tanky fighters (basically not Riven and Aatrox, but Irelia and Nasus sure).

ŚhunpoJan 10, 20182 votes

Well, they're classified under fighters, which is basically used to define bruisers anyway. But sure, for clarity's sake I'll say they're fighters next time.

ŚhunpoJan 10, 20184 votes

Well....if you read the brackets after Illaoi that said "due to Klepto abuse" that means that Illaoi herself is not strong, Kleptomancy is. Any champ that abuses Kleptomancy is broken. Same applies to Jax.

Camille is the same as Olaf, Comet directly goes against how she's supposed to be played in lane. As such she is weak since she cannot be properly played as a duelist in lane, instead she opts to poke her opponents out with Comet enhanced Ws.

Tryndamere is technically not a bruiser, but I'm willing to say that he's pretty close given his playstyle. Aatrox is definitely a bruiser, or Riot wants him to be a bruiser, the community just builds him full damage because he needs it.

As for Riven....she's in a weird spot. Some days she's REALLY good, some days she drops down to 48-49% and is absolutely terrible. So idk what's going on there.

GayFluffyUnicornJan 10, 20181 votes

Well some days riven fight ornn, mao and lose or someone is dumb enough to pick a bruiser into her which she right now due to the insane buffs outright beats.

Otherwise i'm glad seeing an intelligent being like you who understands why bruisers are bad even when their statistics seem "good".

GayFluffyUnicornJan 10, 20181 votes

How is aatrox not a bruiser? Noone is going classcannon on him. BC, T.Hydra, Tabis and tank items are common buys on him. Pretty bruiserish if you ask me. Even trinity force aatrox has been tested. Aatrox has a 1.7 pickrate btw. 1.7 and wins 50% on average.

HungryAngry2SPPJan 10, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Bouncemaster Zac,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=T3oGYuQu,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2018-01-10T07:55:09.400+0000)

Riven, Trynd, and arguably Aatrox aren't bruisers, they're light fighters than build almost entirely damage. Also Aatrox is doing better than he usually does right now (he's at 51%) so you're just outright wrong on that one. Same with Garen, 51%, stronger than he usually is. Illaoi isn't just doing well, she's at 53% and is one of the top 10 Champions right now so objectively wrong again. Jax, Riven, and Camille are all almost at an even 50. You're wrong on all but like two counts. Bruisers are fine; maybe even too strong atm.

Numbers never lie! Buahahaha.

CaeziumJan 10, 20181 votes

Aatrox depends. There is a build where you skip lifesteal entirely and go Titanic Hydra/Trinity/Sterak's Gauge and it is surprisingly effective, but mostly done by Chinese.

But yes if you go by what you see Beyonder Aatrox do, he is a carry more like Trynd or Riven, and can 100-0 before knockup ends with a proper combo.

NemeBroJan 10, 20185 votes

{quoted}

Riven

https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/diamond/plus/champion/Riven/Top/

https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/riven/top/diamond

http://na.op.gg/champion/riven/statistics/top

Seventh most picked champion in NA challenger, 63% win rate.

She could be doing a lot worse.

ŚhunpoJan 10, 20182 votes

That's up in Challenger. In almost every other rank she's average, which I guess is ok. However, the times when she IS excelling it's when she's been taking Kleptomancy and Aftershock, both of which are disgustingly overpowered and likely going to see large nerfs in future. As such, as a champion she could use just one more slight buff, maybe to her W's damage.

I'm not asking for huge buffs here, just something to allow her to trade slightly better.

NemeBroJan 10, 20183 votes

{quoted}

That's up in Challenger. In almost every other rank she's average, which I guess is ok. However, the times when she IS excelling it's when she's been taking Kleptomancy and Aftershock, both of which are disgustingly overpowered and likely going to see large nerfs in future. As such, as a champion she could use just one more slight buff, maybe to her W's damage.

I'm not asking for huge buffs here, just something to allow her to trade slightly better.

Her best rune (other than kleptomancy which is hilariously broken) is unsealed spellbook actually.

And no, she doesn't need a buff at all right now. She just got one which brought her from the dumpster to doing quite well, and as far as I know unsealed spellbook isn't on the radar for nerfs.

As far as aftershock goes, the defense portion of it is being buffed on her in particular. I forgot how the damage was being nerfed.

ŚhunpoJan 10, 20181 votes

Mmm I know Unsealed is quite good. However, most of the sites say that Kleptomancy and Aftershock are her highest % winrate runepages.

AhrisJan 10, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Riven, Aatrox, Tryndamere, Trundle, Mordekaiser, Olaf/Camille (because they're not functioning as intended), Garen, Illaoi (due to Klepto abuse), Jax (when sent top lane), Renekton (lul below 50% winrate) and....did I mention Aatrox?

I find Olaf pretty strong

ŚhunpoJan 10, 20183 votes

Yeah, due to Comet, which directly goes against how he's supposed to be played, hence why I'm saying that Olaf is weak.

OxyrottenJan 10, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Riven, Aatrox, Tryndamere, Trundle, Mordekaiser, Olaf/Camille (because they're not functioning as intended), Garen, Illaoi (due to Klepto abuse), Jax (when sent top lane), Renekton (lul below 50% winrate) and....did I mention Aatrox?

Daddy AntsJan 10, 20183 votes

{quoted}

Riven, Aatrox, Tryndamere, Trundle, Mordekaiser, Olaf/Camille (because they're not functioning as intended), Garen, Illaoi (due to Klepto abuse), Jax (when sent top lane), Renekton (lul below 50% winrate) and....did I mention Aatrox?

Riven weak?

Lol?

PopcornBunniJan 10, 201813 votes

Been saying this for a while. It's gotten to the point that the top 5 of toplane are all fighters of some variety -- Gangplank Illaoi Kayle Kled Nasus

Among the tanks going top meanwhile, Galio Poppy Ornn Malphite TahmKench Nautilus Maokai Shen Sion

only three manage to regularly make the upper HALF of top lane performance -- Maokai Malphite Sion

I've even been chastised for these statements by people saying fucking Chogath Nasus are tanks.

ŚhunpoJan 10, 20189 votes

Cho'gath is a tank. Nasus is not.

AhristocatsJan 10, 20183 votes

kled pick rate is shit, his low sample never meant anything, same with kayle

nasus gp illaoi abuse a rune that is doomed to be gutted which is klepto

Sion malphite with comet mana flow band and scorch are beyond disgusting ornn is legit stupid, this champion win rate doesn't mean shit he has 47% win rate and will be nerfed, because win rate doesn't matter on this overloadead tank maokai is still maokai maokai and shen with grasp now outrade bruisers because bruisers lost 12 mr and tanks didn't lose armor

the only remaining bruisers that are viable are camille and olaf by abusing a playstyle that doesn't fit to them (poke with comet)

PopcornBunniJan 10, 20183 votes

[{quoted}](name=I am Rubick Sama,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=T3oGYuQu,comment-id=00010001,timestamp=2018-01-10T14:16:37.536+0000)

kled pick rate is shit, his low sample never meant anything, same with kayle

nasus gp illaoi abuse a rune that is doomed to be gutted which is klepto

Sion malphite with comet mana flow band and scorch are beyond disgusting ornn is legit stupid, this champion win rate doesn't mean shit he has 47% win rate and will be nerfed, because win rate doesn't matter on this overloadead tank maokai is still maokai maokai and shen with grasp now outrade bruisers because bruisers lost 12 mr and tanks didn't lose armor

the only remaining bruisers that are viable are camille and olaf by abusing a playstyle that doesn't fit to them (poke with comet)

Moving the goalpost. It went from "bruisers can't win in top lane" to "bruisers can only win if they play a way I don't like."

Bruisers are always going to shit on tanks so long as they have higher base stats in the early levels (which they do) and so long as item 3071 exists to invalidate a tank's entire build with a single item. Only reason tanks can do anything in the roles where they're succeeding -- jungle and support -- is because they can't get bullied off cs and made irreverent,

AhristocatsJan 10, 20185 votes

{quoted}

Moving the goalpost. It went from "bruisers can't win in top lane" to "bruisers can only win if they play a way I don't like."

No it went from "bruisers can't win top" to "bruisers can't win top"

if a bruiser can't abuse the system he ends up shit

Aatrox Darius Renekton Yorick Garen Kled cannot abuse the system and thus end up terrible

beside,have you ALREADY forgotten that kleptomancy is going to be nerfed?

Bruisers are always going to shit on tanks so long as they have higher base stats in the early levels (which they do)

Tanks HAVE higher base stats at lvl 1 Look at maokai, ornn, nautilus base stats at lvl 1 and come back

they have the highest attack speed/AD at lvl 1, it's so hilarious

they deal magic damage and bruisers lost mr they didn't lose armor themselves they have grasp dealing more magic damage and healing them

it's insane to think that Bruisers can outtrade tanks right now

and why are you bringing item 3071 to the discussion? by the time we have it laning phase is over and tanks become better than bruisers in teamfight

GayFluffyUnicornJan 10, 20185 votes

Only thing that keeps GP alive is klepto and the fact that he has no competition. Only kled can deal with him now. Nasus abuses shit. Illaoi abuses shit. Kayle. is. not. a. bruiser.

See the problem is still that barely anyone mains tanks and an autofilled or someone who just picks a tank because he thinks they are broken gets murdered by a bruiser main. You need to hold your autism in to win on tanks. Even then and now we come to the actual issue toplane is a no impact role. While bruiser still let you somehow carry or atleast try to carry games hence their higher winrates tanks are completely dependend on their teams performance. So you have tanks ALWAYS performing worse due to being dependend on potatoe teams and now they are dragging bruisers down since tanks are unbeatable atm for them nd you cannot splitpush, you are worse at teamfights, you cannot snowball so tanks only exist to cockblock you and every game for toplane is decided by coinflip botlane/jungle.

HungryAngry2SPPJan 10, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Been saying this for a while. It's gotten to the point that the top 5 of toplane are all fighters of some variety --

Among the tanks going top meanwhile,

only three manage to regularly make the upper HALF of top lane performance --

I've even been chastised for these statements by people saying fucking are tanks.

Cho Gath it's pretty tanky, 5k HP 300Armor, so why not

General TherittJan 10, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Been saying this for a while. It's gotten to the point that the top 5 of toplane are all fighters of some variety --

Among the tanks going top meanwhile,

only three manage to regularly make the upper HALF of top lane performance --

I've even been chastised for these statements by people saying fucking are tanks.

To be fair, i'd classify Cho'gath as a tank, even with his absurdly strong burst. He lacks a bit of mobility, but has strong CC and generally becomes a towering wall the opponent cannot afford to get close to, because if they dare, they may get locked down.

AhristocatsJan 10, 20184 votes

renekton?

PotchikirJan 10, 20183 votes

Garen Renekton Aatrox

OxyrottenJan 10, 20182 votes

The nerf to bramble and the new masteries help us some. The problem with this is this is not the champion balance, it is game balance, item balance, and indirect buffs. But we still just get counterpicked and shit on by some retard with no skill just because he plays teemos.

Most of the "bruisers" have not received any reworks and their kits have been left in the dust with all the new meta that evolves.

GayFluffyUnicornJan 10, 20183 votes

PokladnicaZlaJan 10, 20182 votes

It's not that they're weak,but that they are forced to use the strongest keystone for them,rather than what best suited for their playstyle. Darius's started with Aery when the rune system went live and not just transitions to the next best thing.

They need a rune tree that actually complements their strengths and weaknesses.

PotchikirJan 10, 20181 votes

lets take darius as an example here are the keystones that work well on him

press the attack fleet footwork electrocute predator dark harvest summon aery arcane comet phase rush ( best one for him) grasp of the undying aftershock unsealed spellbook glacial augment kleptomancy

so basically all keystones but lethal tempo and guardian

GayFluffyUnicornJan 10, 20183 votes

God i really want to ask you something but i get banned if i do. PTA IS DOGSHIT ON HIM. Darius doesn't use AAs when most of his dmg comes from abilities and his healing. Fleet footwork? Electrocute is basically cheese. Predator? In lane? What? Dark harvest in lane? What? Summon aery? Cheese. Arcane comet? You serious? Glacial augment? Yeah klepto is broken more people figured that.

Basically you list just every keystone without understanding the game or a champ or anything. Well atleast you can memorize the names of every keystone i guess that's a win for you.

PotchikirJan 10, 20181 votes

Fleet footwork is kinda like another phase rush for him Predator gives movement speed wich is something that darius needs alot of Arcane comet and pta were me trying to fit in more runes inside the list Glacial augment slows wich is kinda like getting more movement speed

Elkington VIJan 10, 20181 votes

Garen is probably doing the best of them all and that's mainly due to his %damage reduction and burst damage. The ones that deal all of their damage through auto-attacks are the ones that are struggling the most.

PotchikirJan 10, 20182 votes

... nope

GayFluffyUnicornJan 10, 20182 votes

Guess why. #Ninjatabibramblevest

SkeletoasterJan 26, 20181 votes

Not sure what planet you're from but Garen is still absolutely worthless (to the point of being an outright troll pick) in any elo above diamond. How in the hell can you use him as an example of a champion which is "doing the best of them all"?